The Feeling of Epic

[K]

1202647121[/unixtime]] ---

A possibility would be to allow people to conduct "Legendary Combat" and "Epic Combat" at any time, where squares get "really big" and stupid big. The problem being that people who aren't themselves Legendary or Epic generally don't have the kinds of abilities or numbers required to actually do that well.

-Username17

Large scale combat could work that way. The difference is that Epic heroes have attacks that destroy whole combat units, Legendary heroes hurt whole units, and smaller guys just merge with and improve individual units effectiveness.

It'd still be abstracted in hours or tends of minutes, just being an Epic hero fights armies alone while a Legendary Hero leads armies and a smaller guy distinguishes himself as an important commander.

[rapanui]

We seem to be talking about two separate things here:

1. When two roughly equally powerful beings meet in combat, and they are both high level, then combat should change in scale to match the concept of a truly long-lasting confrontation.

2. When a high level character is fighting a swarm or horde of lower level mooks, then combat should change in scale for faster combat resolution.

I guess both could be resolved by the above concept, but maybe the easiest way is to add swarm or horde rules, wherein a roughly homogeneous group of creatures are treated as one creature instead of many.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

So, when doing epic mass combat, why not pick an AC for enemies, let everyone take their full suite of attacks, and then declare that for every X damage you defeat an enemy. So if you set it to 15 points, and you do a single attack that does 35 points, you take down two enemies, and do five points to a third. Next attack does fourty-three points, which takes out a further three mooks, and ends your turn. The remaining three points goes away because noone cares about chump change.

-Desdan

[ckafrica]

Well for epic mass combat (or just mass combat in general) we should probably treat mooks like swarms so a unit of pike men is a single opponent that an epic scale character or monster has to plow through rather than fighting the individuals. Would need to create an adequate system to convert the abilities of individuals to a mass of different sizes and on how the damage inflicted reduced their effectiveness

[Crissa]

I'd expect epic-type abilities to show up at mid to higher levels, representing the ability to overwhelm opponents so much lower than yourself.

You can show how you take down each one in a round, or you can just say 'I'm tall enough to take down all of you!'

An alternate, and not entirely immiscible idea is that a stack of units or swarm be computed to represent one or more imp-units. Allowing another way to multiply the numbers being taken down by epic characters.

-Crissa

[name_here]

on the kobolds thing: it is not the 1st level warriors who make the kobolds interesting, it's the low-level PC classes some of them have. sure, you mostly ignore that when you're low-level, because facing down a cadre of kobold sorcerers is not easy at 1st-3rd level. but don't complain that kobolds can't be interesting at 5th level because you don't want to face down 6 2nd level sorcerers, who are massively more dangerous than 6 1st level warriors with crossbows and spears. they aren't all PC classes, not by a long shot, but any squad leaders or higher probably are. even if they're first level. using the races of war warrior progression also works pretty well.

The thing about kobolds is that squashing a couple kobolds is unimpressive, squashing an entire fortress of them is impressive. a default kobold is meant to be 1/4th of a cakewalk for a 1st level party, but 8 2nd level fighter kobolds in a somewhat prepared position is a credible threat to a 3rd level party. admittedly, a group of kobolds who are epic don't reflect on the race as a whole, but fighting guys represntitive of the race as a whole at epic level leads to the question of why that race doesn't own the planet.

one final thought: i don't like the idea of ever actually killing a deity, or even being able to match them in their specialty. sure, you may have a +10 sword of ubershiney effects, but vecna can still cast, "kill krogor the dwarf barbarian with no save" as a free action, despite the fact that that spell didn't exist when he started the round.

[Prak]

Except that in alot of the source material killing the gods is something that high level characters can do. There should be rules that make it possible, and people who don't like the idea can say "In my game mortals can't kill gods." And hell, what are the gods except epic characters?

[name_here]

Actually, my point was that that's not how i think of them in DND. i don't really know what sorce material you're talking about. in the myths i've seen, only deities do that, and not very often. it also gets extra stupid when clerics kill deities or wizards kill gods of magic. that stuff in particular should not be possible. it's worthy of note that in greek mythology, even the mightiest heros only became demi-deities.

[Koumei]

It's only a problem when a Cleric kills THEIR OWN deity. And that's rather unlikely, given the moment they make that decision, their deity goes "Well, enjoy trying that without any spells, domain abilities, turning attempts, prestige class abilities or whatever."

But if, for instance, my Cleric of Loviatar killed Ilmater, Loviatar would probably not only approve, but give her a point or two of Divine Rank in gratitude, along with the key to her bedroom door. Maybe even a pen.

And if a Wizard kills a god of magic? There are often others that pick up the slack. Or the wizard becomes the new god of magic, and balance is restored (or indeed, never upset).

[name_here]

How do the wizards even kill gods of magic? hit them with their quarterstaffs? On the loviatar point: you did this mainly with various forms of divine magic, right? Why didn't Loviatar kill Ilmater directly? Did you outpower your own deity that much?

[Koumei]

I said "if" there. But I now see where you're coming from: If you get your power from a god, why don't they do it for you?

The same reason they don't just enter the PMP and rule it. Because it isn't done. Heroes are awesome not only because they can do things chumps can't do (this is just a case of being powerful), but also because they can do things gods can't do (enter the Prime, go and do whatever they like without every other god throwing a shitstorm and litigating).

The way I see it, if a god *wants* another god dead, then what they do is get their clerics to do it. They give their full support, but they don't actually show up and join in, because that isn't done.

As for Wizards killing gods of magic? No, they use magic. They don't worship the god, they just use magic. Just because they're the god of magic doesn't mean they decide who gets to use it - or are you saying every death that ever happens first has to be approved by the god of death, and that if the god of fire sleeps in, nobody can light a candle?

That's pretty dumb. Gods channel magic through their clerics as a way of interfering with mortals and having a hand in things without taking direct action, and they generally just pay attention to their port folios and domains and take care of administration. But they don't have 100% control over it.

[Crissa]

There's a difference between using the road and then paying tribute to the guy who built it... And using the road while paying tolls. The next toll booth might stop the second guy, but probably not the first.

Of course, that doesn't mean the God of Magic couldn't just turn off the tap, per se - but then neither he nor the wizard would have magic, would he?

-Crissa

[Desdan_Mervolam]

1203132428[/unixtime]]As for Wizards killing gods of magic? No, they use magic. They don't worship the god, they just use magic. Just because they're the god of magic doesn't mean they decide who gets to use it - or are you saying every death that ever happens first has to be approved by the god of death, and that if the god of fire sleeps in, nobody can light a candle?

Actually yes. In folklore and mythology, there are more than a few stories about Death being captured or going on vacation or something and then no matter what noone dies. Hell, in alot of those stories people can't even be hurt after Death is off duty.

Now, D&D isn't folklore, I know this, but that is one of the sources that D&D draws from.

-Desdan

[Prak]

1203130347[/unixtime]]How do the wizards even kill gods of magic? hit them with their quarterstaffs? On the loviatar point: you did this mainly with various forms of divine magic, right? Why didn't Loviatar kill Ilmater directly? Did you outpower your own deity that much?

It's probably more along the lines of divine agreement. Or maybe you did, so what? this only matters if gods are defined solely by power rather than essence or some such. I think there should seriously be an option for people going around slaying dieties and getting power from it.

Just because they're the god of magic doesn't mean they decide who gets to use it - or are you saying every death that ever happens first has to be approved by the god of death, and that if the god of fire sleeps in, nobody can light a candle?

makes me think of Sandman, while he was imprisoned(and he's actually stronger than the gods) no one dreamt, hell, it was even implied that if death were imprisoned, no one would die.

[CatharzGodfoot]

IIRC there was a Sandman where death was somehow stopped, and to make a long story short there was a zombocalypse.


Being able to kill gods or not is a flavor issue intrinsic to the specific game. I like the idea of gods being stoppable by mortals, but actually 'killing' one requires that you capture their divine essence (which almost always means that you personally gain their portfolio, and is normally only possible for immortals). Immortals can die on their lonesome when they become completely irrelevant.

That would probably work for TNE, assuming that there actually are gods (and if you kill Shiva, you better start dancing). If there are just Immortals (Asuras and Devas) that aren't intrinsically vital forces of the universe, they should be killable the normal way (albeit with their zany defenses in play).
On the other hand, imprisoning a deity is really about the same thing as making rain stop falling, things stop aging, or Dharma stop spinning.

[JonSetanta]

1203133406[/unixtime]]
Actually yes. In folklore and mythology, there are more than a few stories about Death being captured or going on vacation or something and then no matter what noone dies. Hell, in alot of those stories people can't even be hurt after Death is off duty.

Now, D&D isn't folklore, I know this, but that is one of the sources that D&D draws from.

-Desdan

Yes but one of my brothers had a Terry Pratchett-like campaign that lasted a few sessions wherein that exact scenario happened.
Problem was, the damage you took remained until after Death was brought back to power, and you would die (gruesomely) if the damage got past -10.
Still, it was fun kicking the head of a plot NPC goblin around for miles, solving one evening's encounters as a calf, and slaughering thousands by accidentally tripping and breaking hourglasses tied to mortal lives, all with -50 HP. Getting back to full health with limited resources was a struggle, though...
That to me is low-level 'epic'.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

1203136881[/unixtime]]IIRC there was a Sandman where death was somehow stopped, and to make a long story short there was a zombocalypse.

No, actually. That was "The Season of Mists", and the reson the dead all popped up to roam the earth was that Lucifer had decided to resign, and evicted every demon and soul from his realm as his last act as Lord of Hell. Death actually pops up in that story arc (During a tangent story about a couple of schoolboys) and complains about how busy she'd been since that happened.

There are a few stories about Death in that universe taking a holiday and walking the earth as a mortal (She does this about once a century or so), but she doesn't so much abdicate her realm to do it as bud off a splinter of herself that lives a life over the course of 24 hours before being reabsorbed into her.

-Desdan

[CatharzGodfoot]

1203144819[/unixtime]]

1203136881[/unixtime]]IIRC there was a Sandman where death was somehow stopped, and to make a long story short there was a zombocalypse.

No, actually. That was "The Season of Mists", and the reson the dead all popped up to roam the earth was that Lucifer had decided to resign, and evicted every demon and soul from his realm as his last act as Lord of Hell.

Oops, right you are.

[virgil]

I'm still trying to figure out how you can make epically long fights in the same game with round-by-round attack capabilities. Do you put a cap on damage for lower level abilities, so defenses eventually outstrip them and you have to use your longer action 'epic' attacks to actually hurt the other opponent?

[Crissa]

I believe that was the idea.

Long actions penetrate special defenses.

-Crissa

[Ice9]

Was thinking about this, and the problem I realized is that it pretty much forces a hard line between epic/non-epic characters - as in, non-epic characters can never win a fight against an epic character.

The problem is how much longer the "long actions" take. If we say that "epic rounds" are an hour each, that's 3600 normal rounds. That means, if you can do anything to your foe with normal non-epic attacks, even 1 point of damage, then you're better off using that. And if you can disable your foe in other non-damage-based ways, the same thing applies.


So basically, epic characters have to be completely immune to anything that doesn't require a long-action to do. So even if you give non-epic characters the ability to do long actions, it won't help:
Non-Epic Char: *starts long action*
Epic Char: *demolishes the non-epic character with less than 3600 rounds worth of attacks*

Even if the epic character is attacked by a huge army of non-epic characters, more than they can demolish in 3600 rounds, they'll still escape unscratched. Simply kick ass for 3599 rounds, then teleport away right before all the long-actions go off.


Actually, this could be a problem between epic characters as well. As soon as one of them starts losing, they simply stop taking long-actions and start using their normal actions to flee. With 3600 rounds to run away, teleport away, plane travel away, or build an entire castle with them at the center, it's going to be pretty damn hard to land an epic attack on anyone who isn't willing to take one.

[Koumei]

3,600? 6 seconds per round equals 10 rounds per minute. There are 60 minutes in an hour, unless they've gone and changed that on me (still shitty about extending daylight savings), which makes 600 rounds per hour.

Which still means your point stands - after 500 rounds of running or whatever, you'll be long gone and out of the range of their big action. Hopefully.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I'm pretty sure the build-up part of the epic action could occupy only the epic character's Press each round... or some other mechanic which is only a very limited restriction on the epic character's ability to engage in non-epic terms.

[Crissa]

It doesn't really matter where you run...

...The all-seeing eye eventually finds you.

-Crissa

[JonSetanta]

Press all you want.
You'll never defeat Lavos.