FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1199526238[/unixtime]]
How is it imbalanced mathematically?
In 3rd edition, a 20 threat crits on 5% of attacks. A 19-20 threat crits on 10% of attacks, and an 18-20 threat crits on 15% of attacks. So a pick or scimitar does an extra 15% average damage, and improved critical doubles that to +30%. Shockingly elegant.
Well, how much crit damage do you inflict in 4e?
[die size/2 - .5] / (Static bonuses + [die size/2 + .5]) / [20 - Opponent's AC + Attack Bonus]
Seriously, that's the actual formula. As you do more damage and hit more often the crit bonus to damage actually falls. It makes the most statistical difference to those whose attacks are the worst.
But of course, I can't actually evaluate that number without all the inputs, because it's both complicated and circumstantially variable.
-Username17
This is a lie, Frank. There's really no kinder way to put it. You are stating something outright and massively incorrect about 3e crits, and then massively complexifying the 4e crit far beyond how it actually plays out in battle.
3e crits are not a simple 5% per point of threat range. Confirmations make that vary quite a bit, based on the difference between your attack bonus and the opponent's AC. As well, if you have any additional damage dice, they aren't multiplied, reducing the percentage damage boost of the crit even further.
So, the "shockingly elegant" 3e system actually involves an additional die roll against a different number than the threat range and requires you to separate your damage into multipliable and non-multipliable sections.
Your 4e crit damage formula is not only massively more complicated than it has to be, it's actually expressing
an entirely different thing. It shows you the average damage boost that a crit gives you
averaged over all possible attack rolls. This is clearly not what you expressed in the 3e crit formula, even ignoring all the complexity that you left out of that. You're left with only the first two terms which is just "extra damage over normal damage". This is *substantially* simpler than the actual 3e formula for figuring extra average damage.
In play, even that much complexity won't exist. We already separate our weapon dice from all our other damage. When a crit occurs, you just use a static, easy-to-figure-or-write-down value instead of your weapon die. You might be adding a few extra dice that you have written down in your crit-damage section. That is simpler than the 3e crit where, after you've rolled and checked a second time to make sure that you really did crit, you have to roll your weapon damage again, double one segment of your additional damage, but leave the other segment of your additional damage alone and just add it.
Finally, your crit bonus to damage never falls. The percentage increase does, but that's a different thing. And the exact same thing occurs to a lesser extent with 3e crits (they contribute less average damage as you hit more often).
If you're going to make mathematical arguments, please do so honestly and use your terms consistently. Otherwise you're just obfuscating the point to be a jerk.
Frank Trollman wrote:Only if you hit on better than a 15+ - if you need a 17 or higher to land a blow, you crit more now. So crits happen more when you are being swarmed by goblins. Also the new system does more bonus damage relatively for weak attacks like goblins than it does for player characters of decent level.
So uh... they made the new crit rules be something where it periodically hurts a lot to melee large numbers of weak enemies.
Let's actually look at numbers, shall we?
4e crits happen a flat 5% of the time. 3e crits happen a variable number based on what numbers you can hit on. They drop below 5% when you threaten on an 18+ but need a 15+ to hit, threaten on a 19+ but need an 11+ to hit, or anytime when you threaten only on a 20.
However, 4e crit damage is substantially smaller. For a creature with *no* bonus damage, just a plain weapon dice, 4e crits will deal 1 point less than the average 3e crit. The 3e crit also has the possibility of jumping substantially higher, up to twice the 4e crit damage. This is most significant when dealing with small weapons that deal 1d6 or 1d4 damage (coincidentally, exactly the damage dealt by normal goblins). A goblin critting with his thrown javeling will deal 25% MORE damage on average with a 3e crit than a 4e crit! What's more, the worst case scenario for a 3e crit is 2 less damage than the 4e, but the best case is 4 more damage.
If the creature has some bonus damage, then 4e crits fall even further behind. For every point of bonus damage, the difference between crits widens by a point. It's impossible to know how they've changed weapons that currently have a wide threat range, but an orcish javelin (1d6+3) can still be compared easily enough. A 4e crit with it will deal 9 damage. The average 3e crit will be 13.
Worst case 3e damage is 7 (2 below 4e crit), but best is 18 (9 above 4e crit)!
Care to continue arguing that mobs are automatically deadlier with 4e crits? When the mobs are severely outclassed they'll be critting a bit more often but for substantially less damage, and the damage itself is much flatter with less chance of a lucky high-damage shot. The fact that they're so outclassed means the PCs will have an easier time killing them; this becomes even more true with the implied PC access to more attack options, which will certainly include some area attacks for every class.
Overall, Frank, I'm really quite surprised at you. I read the Tomes ages ago and have been lurking these boards for some time, so I feel like I know your general preferences, and you *hate* multipliers. They kick numbers well out of normal ranges and encourage massive specialization. It really surprises me that you're so down on 4e crits then, since they're dumping the multiplier for a much flatter damage bonus. At higher levels crits are less exciting, sure, but that's where the extra dice come in. They add bonus damage to crits in an additive fashion, not a multiplicative, which is inherently more balanced.
I personally don't think reducing randomness is good. How is it good for the players?
In general, lower randomness is good for PCs. This is because the PCs are in it for the long haul, while monsters only need to show up for a few rounds. If the PCs get lucky and deal a heavy-damage crit to a monster, they've taken one enemy out a few rounds earlier than normal. Woop-de-doo. If the monsters do the same to the PCs, you've got a PK on your hands, which can easily slide into a TPK once it starts (especially if it happens early in the battle). Then you've got to throw money at the death until it goes away, lowering your wealth, and in the meantime the dead player is out of the game for a bit.
You can compare this with gambling. If you have to maintain a bankroll for a while and gamble hundreds of times, you want the least volatile games you can get. You're shooting for maximum play-time, and the less likely it is that you lose a large chunk of money at once the better. The monsters, though, are like gamblers who've just been given a chunk of change and are told they get one shot at using it. They want to head straight for the roulette table and put everything on red. They're likely to lose, sure, but when one of them wins they win BIG. Since that's their only shot at fame and fortune, this is their best strategy.
To address the second point, I'm almost certain that sneak attack damage and such won't be maximized. 3e crits had the unfortunate side-effect of being really good for damage-bonus builds but really bad for damage-dice builds. If 4e maximized *all* dice, it would just be creating the opposite problem. I highly suspect that they'll just maximize the weapon die and leave the rest of damage alone so that it's equally good for everyone.