Bill Gates is a Bastard

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Bill Gates is a Bastard

Post by DrPraetor »

Bill Gates (:borg:) is a bastard, and his charity is a fraud.

My mother wrote this:
http://blogs.edweek.org/teachers/living ... erage.html

To defuse some of the more obvious complaints (namely, that it is somewhat unlikely, although not impossible, that he's really pulling more money than he is putting in), I say:
1984 wrote:Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.
Enjoy!

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Post by ckafrica »

Since when has Bill Gates being a bastard been news? We've known this since the 90s at least. Think Burn's Omni-net when you think of Gate's foundation
The internet gave a voice to the world thus gave definitive proof that the world is mostly full of idiots.
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Post by Maj »

As an indirect recipient of money from the Gates Foundation, I don't really think I'm in a position to complain. Especially when it's paying for my son's preschool education that I view as a good thing.

:ohwell:
Last edited by Maj on Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Gates' activities in the field of education are pretty bastardish. He's providing leveraged funds that give money to educational endeavors if and only if they also invest in for-profit programs that he likes, many of which do not work, or at least demonstrably do not work as well as other programs that may be in place. For preschool specifically, that's not much of an issue - the US already has for-profit preschool as its primary model (compulsory public education starts at Kindergarten in most jurisdictions). But for places in education where the majority of the funds are public (elementary school, for example), that's a pretty big problem.

The thing is: I actually don't think it's a grand conspiracy. I do however think it highlights a larger problem in our society: eccentric billionaires have voices in policy and politics that are millions of times louder than normal people, even when those "normal" people are actually experts in the field being discussed! Bill Gates is one of the least qualified people in the world to talk about education - especially higher education. Remember that his own history is that his parents got him into the most exclusive schools, and then he happened to make friends with enough people who were also interested in what would turn out to be the largest tech field in human history right at the moment that it was starting to expand but you could still progress the field from a garage - and then he dropped out of school and took a giant pile of his dad's money and formed a company. It's about as much of a charming "self made man" story as is possible to have when the beginning is "his dad was so rich that he could attend a preparatory school so expensive that they had an actual computer in 1968, a mere fifteen years before the production of the Apple IIe that would eventually find its way to the public schools I attended.

Bill Gates' life story is not replicated one time in ten billion, and we may never see the same sort of thing again. The combination of people with natural talent with large amounts of family money being given tremendously early access to an emerging technical field and then finding enough like-minded people in college to start a company with the aforementioned family money as starting capital is pretty much one-off. So the idea that Bill Gates has any special knowledge of how to educate people to become productive citizens is fairly laughable. If you picked a random person making $60,000+ a year, the chances of them having a better grasp of what makes the education system work and not-work is almost 100%. You could also go to people who actually study these issues, and they would presumably know even more. Because early childhood development and education sociology are totally fields that people do research in.

I actually think that Bill Gates is probably sincere in his desire to improve education. He is just completely unqualified to tell people how to do that. Certainly, his malaria plans seem sincere and relatively well thought out.

Here's the malaria problem: malaria kills people. Lots of people. Also it causes huge losses of productivity as nearly the entire population of many tropical countries lose weeks of work or school every year to malaria. In 2010, there were 216 million malaria cases, holy shit! If you made a country out of the people who got malaria last year, it would be the fifth largest country on Earth.

And yet: there is almost no money going into research into how to combat this disease. WTF?

Malaria used to be a big problem in Europe and the United States. But between draining swamps and massive use of DDT, it was eliminated from those regions in the 20th century. New problem: the remaining mosquitoes are DDT resistant and our insecticides lost their efficacy at pushing the malaria line. DDT got discontinued and the mosquitoes have actually been pushing the malaria line the wrong way ever since.

Malaria research is currently just not being done by Western governments (their lack of investment is justified because few of their citizens get malaria - just a handful of imported cases a year). It's also not being done by private firms (because they get paid for vaccines produced, and the areas where malaria vaccines are needed are also poor and can't afford them). And it's not being done by the tropical governments (this is least understandable, because they have so much to gain - but as long as there are still starving people and the president doesn't have a gold plated Mercedes to go with his other gold plated Mercedes, it is very hard to get African governments to sign up for expensive multi-decade investment programs).

Now Bill Gates is throwing tens of millions of dollars into malaria fighting. And he is doing it on several fronts:
  • He is directly subsidizing some malaria research. A few million here, a few million there to various research groups tackling the problem from various angles.
  • He is giving money to various public health initiatives. Buying mosquito netting, anti-malarials, and similar stuff for affected regions.
  • He is pledging money to buy malaria vaccines for some people who couldn't afford them should they become available.
  • He is pledging money to provide price supports so that companies that make vaccines will be more profitable.
Now that last one is pretty weird, since it's basically just spending money on not giving vaccines to people. But the idea is that it is an incentive to get people to invest in malaria vaccines, because if they succeed in making one the profits will be higher than the people of Niger can afford to make them on their own.

It's an interesting plan, and probably what you have to do if you want the private sector to make a malaria vaccine. Now it would obviously be more efficient to have governments research a malaria vaccine and then give it out for free, and then pay for it in the long run with the extra seven hundred and fifty million weeks of work that would be freed up every year (roughly $150 billion a year forever). But Bill Gates points out quite correctly that governments have not stepped up to the plate on this issue and there is no particular reason to believe that they will start doing so any time soon. Trying to entice the private sector to throw research dollars that way with price support prizes is a reasonable alternative.

But here's the thing: he's using almost exactly the same model in education, where it's totally unwarranted. The governments of the US and Europe do invest in public education, why the fuck would you think we needed price supports for privately funded education alternatives? What we need is more public investment and more attention paid to the quite extensive body of evidence-based education outcome research we already have - and less reliance on transformative educational fads presented by people who have no idea what the fuck they are talking about and clear financial conflicts of interest.

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Post by erik »

Frank summed up my position better than I could.

Saving people from Malaria is unquestionably good and his foundation seems to be doing this better than say, most anyone else.

Education reforms, not working that well, but at least he now realizes and admits that apparently throwing technology at education problems does not appear to work.

Bill Gates may be a bastard, but that is neither here nor there on the topic of through his deliberate action he has saved a fuckton more lives than you (whoever is reading this) or I ever will.
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Post by Prak »

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Post by Ted the Flayer »

erik wrote:Frank summed up my position better than I could.

Saving people from Malaria is unquestionably good and his foundation seems to be doing this better than say, most anyone else.

Education reforms, not working that well, but at least he now realizes and admits that apparently throwing technology at education problems does not appear to work.

Bill Gates may be a bastard, but that is neither here nor there on the topic of through his deliberate action he has saved a fuckton more lives than you (whoever is reading this) or I ever will.
I save millions of lives every day I don't flip out and kill everyone.
Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.
Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.
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Post by Prak »

According to christians, I save millions of lives every day I don't masturbate.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by ishy »

I saved billions of lives in my homebrew ttrpg.
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Post by Doom »

By being so artistically challenged I could not draw Skippy, I saved 25 million.
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Post by ishy »

Doom wrote:By being so artistically challenged I could not draw Skippy, I saved 25 million.
Who or what is skippy?
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
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Post by npc310 »

What about tying teacher pay to student's success. So, if your student works the drive thru at Burger King, you earn x. If your student becomes a billionaire playboy philanthropist, you earn 1000x. Then reverse the scale. If your student...Burger King...1000x. Billionaire philanthropist...x. I bet you'd have a flood of the best teachers in the country heading to inner city schools. Continue this program for say, eight to ten years. The inner city kids would get the best teachers, while the children in the best schools (today) would get whoever is left. Would the inner city kids grow up to be the billionaire philanthropists? Would the kids who were in the "best" schools ten years ago end up working at Quickie Mart? My prediction would be no, because it is not all about the teachers, or the schools, or the funding. Parents play the biggest role in forming who a child will grow up to be. Whether the child is driven to succeed, or satisfied having a job with their name on their shirt. Ask any teacher, and they'll agree. I have six in my family, in three different states with three different education systems and funding mechanisms. They all say that parents are the most important part.

What do you think?
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Post by DSMatticus »

npc310 wrote:I bet you'd have a flood of the best teachers in the country heading to inner city schools. Continue this program for say, eight to ten years
Well, you've correctly identified part of the problem, but that's a terrible solution. Do you not realize that teachers in that case get pay raises for ensuring their students are a failure?
npc310 wrote:My prediction would be no, because it is not all about the teachers, or the schools, or the funding. Parents play the biggest role in forming who a child will grow up to be.
No, it turns out funding is a pretty big deal. Everything is a factor, but bigger schools, better equipment, more and better teachers, and more extracurriculars all go a long way. And they all take money.
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Post by Ted the Flayer »

Prak_Anima wrote:According to christians, I save millions of lives every day I don't masturbate.
Not worth it.
Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.
Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

One of the big problems faced by the education system is that teachers aren't taught assessment techniques, and they also aren't taught much about developing curriculum to standards (which is where American education has been headed for the last 20 or so years). So they're basically driving without a licence while blindfolded.

To make matters worse, curriculum developers for state departments of education often don't understand assessment either, so they come up with standards that are impossible to test. I don't think I have to explain to the Gaming Den why that is terribad.

To make matters even worser, those curriculum developers are beholden to even more ignorant and capricious upper management, who often end up rubbing their biases (for a hypothetical example, extreme Southern Baptist religiosity) all over both the standards an assessments. This means that (hypothetically), standards dealing with sex, puberty, drugs, or even abstinence won't actually be assessed. Which is, for obvious reasons, a bad thing.

But that's not all. Even those all-powerful education grognards are beholden to the fucking state house and/or senate. Who know even less about education, have even crazier biases, and do things on a 2 to 7 year scale for purely political reasons.

So even before you get to the disproportionate influences of really good and really shitty teachers, you have a system that is a priori fucked on multiple levels. I'm not saying that the extreme individual failings completely break the system, but they do make it work a lot worse than it should.
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Post by K »

npc310 wrote:What about tying teacher pay to student's success. So, if your student works the drive thru at Burger King, you earn x. If your student becomes a billionaire playboy philanthropist, you earn 1000x. Then reverse the scale. If your student...Burger King...1000x. Billionaire philanthropist...x. I bet you'd have a flood of the best teachers in the country heading to inner city schools. Continue this program for say, eight to ten years. The inner city kids would get the best teachers, while the children in the best schools (today) would get whoever is left. Would the inner city kids grow up to be the billionaire philanthropists? Would the kids who were in the "best" schools ten years ago end up working at Quickie Mart? My prediction would be no, because it is not all about the teachers, or the schools, or the funding. Parents play the biggest role in forming who a child will grow up to be. Whether the child is driven to succeed, or satisfied having a job with their name on their shirt. Ask any teacher, and they'll agree. I have six in my family, in three different states with three different education systems and funding mechanisms. They all say that parents are the most important part.

What do you think?
The problem is that teachers have little to do with student success in the real world. The current number of unemployed lawyers and Harvard grads should be a good proof of that. You can find the rather depressing stats yourself, but I'll just say that only half of Harvard grads have any job at all after what is arguably one of the best educations in the world, and those jobs might be "barista" or "Walmart greeter".

There is a mythology that teachers can have some transformative effect on students, but the problem is that success in the real world comes from heavily-invested mentorship like the kind you find on a job, luck, and financial support during training periods like internships, college, and during the early part of a career.

There also have to be opportunities. You can just be brilliant and well-trained and not be successful if there is no one hiring in your field or the market is saturated for the business you want to start. This is why people from third-world nations who come to the first world to study will stay here to work.

If anyone tries to tell you that it's a problem with the teachers not trying hard or not pushing the kids enough, just remind them that the kids in Stand and Deliver cheated. Pushing kids harder just leads to more of them cracking.

Since even the anecdotes of success are deeply flawed, it should show that there is no science to success.
Last edited by K on Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

The problem with any kind of long-term incentive scheme is that people on the ground are in no position to evaluate what their long-term incentives actually are. Yes, every parent wants their child to succeed, but most children don't end up being high powered attorneys. The truth is, the vast majority of people have no idea what would cause someone to become successful or not in the economy of the future. Even people who have a very good grasp of statistics and know a lot about educational strategies in the past and socio-economic factors and outcomes, still can only tell you what worked in the past. They could tell you what gave people the skills they needed to rise up in the economy we used to have, not what will give people the skills people will need at some point in the future.

The truth is that an over all curriculum is very hard to come up with. You pretty much need engineers to tell you what math they think future people will need and biologists to tell you what biology people will need and doctors to tell you what health facts people will need and so on and so on. A huge problem we have right now is that curricula are written to a very large extent by people who care a lot about the curriculum, rather than by people who have any particular knowledge about what any part of it should contain. So you end up with biology standards written by religious zealots and history standards written by wealthy ideologues.

But simply telling individual teachers to work out who is right and who is wrong on their own is bad policy. The marketplace of ideas does not work. People who want others to believe things more than they want to have their own money will in fact spread large amounts of propaganda and poison the process. We know this. Eccentric billionaires influence public discussion more than people who have the slightest clue what the fuck they are talking about.

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Post by K »

Here is a chunk of text from a NYT article about cultural omnivorism that I think accidentally addresses this issue:
Their rhetoric emphasizes such individualism and the talents required to “make it.” Yet there is something pernicious about this self-presentation. The narrative of openness and talent obscures the bitter truth of the American experience. Talents are costly to develop, and we refuse to socialize these costs. To be an outstanding student requires not just smarts and dedication but a well-supported school, a safe, comfortable home and leisure time to cultivate the self. These are not widely available. When some students struggle, they can later tell the story of their triumph over adversity, often without mentioning the helping hand of a tutor. Other students simply fail without such expensive aids.

These are more than liberal platitudes. Look at who makes up the most “talented” members of society: the children of the already advantaged. Today America has less intergenerational economic mobility than almost any country in the industrialized world; one of the best predictors of being a member of the elite today is whether your parents were in the elite. The elite story about the triumph of the omnivorous individual with diverse talents is a myth. In suggesting that it is their work and not their wealth, that it is their talents and not their lineage, elites effectively blame inequality on those whom our democratic promise has failed.
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Post by ishy »

If you reward teachers for the results of their students, wouldn't you get the problem that some teachers will just dump the not so promising kids and spend all their attentions on the exceptional students?
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Post by npc310 »

The other thought I had about education is making it like the GI Bill. Taxpayers will pay off your student loans if you become a teacher. If you are a teacher in Beverly Hills, you gotta do X years per Y dollars. If you are a teacher in South Central, you gotta the same number of years pays off triple the dollars. Make it a sliding scale.
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Post by K »

npc310 wrote:The other thought I had about education is making it like the GI Bill. Taxpayers will pay off your student loans if you become a teacher. If you are a teacher in Beverly Hills, you gotta do X years per Y dollars. If you are a teacher in South Central, you gotta the same number of years pays off triple the dollars. Make it a sliding scale.
The problem with that is that teaching still pays about 25% less than any other job that requires a master's degree.

This means that even complete subsidization of degrees for teachers is a bad economic decision for the teacher because their lifetime income is better in any other profession requiring a masters. A masters and undergrand shouldn't cost more than $100K, and you can make back that difference in ten years in a job that actually pays master's level wages.

That's before you take into account the fact that teachers and teacher's unions are under constant attack from right-wing politicians who want to dismantle social programs. I don't even know if there is a reasonable amount of income to offset that downside.

We need to address the fact that we pay teachers an amount of wages designed to attract the least qualified candidates.

Then we can address more complicated issues like what to teach them and why we spend more money on schools that need it the least.
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Post by Username17 »

Financial remuneration can get people to become teachers. But while we have something of an overall shortage of teachers, we have a much worse shortage of teacher positions. Teachers should probably be paid better than they are, but really our first priority should be to hire as many teachers as our own public school systems say we need - which is substantially more than the number we currently have. The NEA considers optimal class size to be 15, but the actual average class size in the United States is over 20. That's not because financial incentives aren't weird enough to get teaching credentials for enough people - it's because the US needs to create an extra teaching position for every three they have now.

People whine that "taxing and spending" is a typical liberal solution to problems. But in this case that's literally what we need to do. We also need to have more evidence-based curricula and standards. But straight up we need to spend a third more than we do now.

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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

FrankTrollman wrote:We also need to have more evidence-based curricula and standards.
And assessment. It's possible to create perfectly good evidence-based curricula and standards and still fail because you don't have the instruments to determine which parts of them are actually working.


I won't argue about the 'need more teaching jobs' thing, though. Plenty of teachers are fucking insane, and will willingly work for almost free. I know at least one extremely qualified teacher who was considering minimum-wage jobs because she is moving (her husband is in the navy) to an area with no available teaching jobs. She'll probably end up doing long-distance consulting for more money than she would have made as a teacher, but still...


K wrote:That's before you take into account the fact that teachers and teacher's unions are under constant attack from right-wing politicians who want to dismantle social programs. I don't even know if there is a reasonable amount of income to offset that downside.
Teachers' unions deserve some of the blame for things being as fucked up as they are. Unions are generally a good thing, and some of the shitty things teachers' unions do might be in response to right-wing attacks. However, protecting shitty teachers and keeping good teachers from being rewarded is not the path to good educational outcomes.
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DrPraetor »

I also disagree with Frank's assertion that Gates' Malaria activities are a net good. What's really needed is long term development of health infrastructure - in contrast to that African country you were in... Gambia? Were they couldn't get anything done because patients had to run back and forth to buy their own materials all the time? The Gates people actually *promote* that kind of bullshit, as a "Market Based Solution". But this can be between Frank and the other people who are in Médecins Sans Frontières, I'm not getting into it.

This is going to be covered in a follow-up piece, but when people claim-to-propose evidence-based-anything in schools, what they are actually proposing is Regulatory Capture. They have a business that sells assessment services and they want the law to be altered so that the school systems have to buy their assessment technology. Then they claim that teachers are only opposed to this because they don't want to be assessed.

Actual evidence-based studies show that so-called evidence-based METHODS are a total failure, basically for this reason. They're a failure even by the standards which they get to design, which are bullshit. So in some parallel universe where the rest of the society was not being held at gunpoint by rapacious capitalists, scientific assessment of teaching could be a good thing. But not in the real world. Would say more on this but gotta go. An example of what is being sold as evidence-based assessment, for $33 million in this case.

And we need 50% more teachers, yeah.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

DrPraetor wrote:Actual evidence-based studies show that so-called evidence-based METHODS are a total failure, basically for this reason. They're a failure even by the standards which they get to design, which are bullshit. So in some parallel universe where the rest of the society was not being held at gunpoint by rapacious capitalists, scientific assessment of teaching could be a good thing. But not in the real world. Would say more on this but gotta go. An example of what is being sold as evidence-based assessment, for $33 million in this case.
Actually, when I say "evidence based assessment" I mean assessment methods that are supported by scientific evidence and that demonstrably assess what they are supposed to (and only that).

Because creating those kinds of assessments is my fucking job.
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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