Immortal elves and skills

[Stahlseele]

What other way would you try and go with swords? O.o
Hitting them with the blunt side?

Mordschlagen?

wat?

The German fencing teams swept the olympics for a while with their new techniques.

never been much of a sports buff, and i think this may have been when i was still VERY young too *snickers*

Martial arts is not a new field, but off the top of my head, Krav Maga, Aikido, Jeet Kun Do, and MCMAP are all new variants in the past century.

[Gx1080]

"At the end of the day there is still a finite number of ways that a person can hurt another person with his body (or melee weapon)."

Yeah, that's why there's all those several martial arts styles...oh wait.

[Wesley Street]

Congrats on hitting a new level of retardation, Gx. Now choke yourself.

[fectin]

silly demo, but here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy9OQoqW_MA

[Critias]

I think mordschlag translates to "killing blow" or "murder strike" or something badass, too. It's counterintuitive to gamers because we're used to magical swords of ridiculous sharpness, but with real live blades, and wearing real live gauntlets/gloves/etc, it was a pretty valid way to reverse your sword and totally wreck someone's shit.

[PoliteNewb]

"At the end of the day there is still a finite number of ways that a person can hurt another person with his body (or melee weapon)."

Yeah, that's why there's all those several martial arts styles...oh wait.

Yeah, that's why there are an infinite number of martial arts style...oh wait.
He said "finite". The fact that there are multiple martial arts forms does not expand the number of person-hurting techniques from "finite" to "infinite".

For that matter, you are no doubt aware that many martial arts styles use nearly (or actually) identical techniques, right? And that some martial arts forms (like Jeet Kun Do) are primarily made up of techniques borrowed from older martial arts styles?

Martial arts is not a new field, but off the top of my head, Krav Maga, Aikido, Jeet Kun Do, and MCMAP are all new variants in the past century.

They're new...but are any of them demonstrably more effective than Shao-lin, Kenpo, Savate, or Capoeira?

[...You Lost Me]

I can't speak for anything else, but Aikido is generally considered quite different from the four you mentioned. Of course, it (and its relative, HapKiDo) both come from Daitoryu Aikijijutsu (apologies for butchering that spelling).

[angelfromanotherpin]

Aikido is just a kind of jujitsu without any strikes, because philosophy, man. If you refuse to attack them, their only recourse is to limply offer you their hand in the hopes that you'll try to grab it. And while the entire school lacks a response to someone saying 'bring it,' except maybe 'no you,' I've seen people do some mind-blowing things within its limitations. I don't know if that has to do with the narrowed focus, though, or if the original school does those things and a kick in the face.

Krav Maga has some genuine innovation, I don't think any other style has techniques based on having you and a bunch of friends kidnap a fool. (I am not kidding)

Jeet Kune Do isn't really a martial art, but a design document for martial arts.

[Chamomile]

They're new...but are any of them demonstrably more effective than Shao-lin, Kenpo, Savate, or Capoeira?

I don't know about conclusive evidence, but Krav Maga certainly has a reputation as the most lethally effective martial art ever made.

[PoliteNewb]

They're new...but are any of them demonstrably more effective than Shao-lin, Kenpo, Savate, or Capoeira?

I don't know about conclusive evidence, but Krav Maga certainly has a reputation as the most lethally effective martial art ever made.

I have heard people talk up just about every martial art form as being "the best" or "the most effective" or "the most deadly"...but realistically, it mostly comes down to individual cases.

There is no art that is clearly superior in all situations, for all people, against all attackers.

I can't speak for anything else, but Aikido is generally considered quite different from the four you mentioned. Of course, it (and its relative, HapKiDo) both come from Daitoryu Aikijijutsu (apologies for butchering that spelling).

I'm well aware that it's different. Is it better? If it isn't, than it doesn't matter how different it is...the innovations it introduces do not represent improvement, only innovation. It's interesting, yes, and arguably effective at what it wants to do...but it's not something you need to study in order to maintain your overall effectiveness at the whole unarmed-combat game.

Which is primarily what we were previously talking about...how innovations force people to keep learning and keep in practice. Aikido did not do this...you could have studied anti-grappling techniques based off older koryu martial arts and they will probably be just as effective against aikido as they were against taijutsu, if you are expert at them.

[Jilocasin]

If you refuse to attack them, their only recourse is to limply offer you their hand in the hopes that you'll try to grab it. And while the entire school lacks a response to someone saying 'bring it,' except maybe 'no you,' I've seen people do some mind-blowing things within its limitations. I don't know if that has to do with the narrowed focus, though, or if the original school does those things and a kick in the face.

That's a problem that's been spreading for some decades now but Aikido practitioners that are any good should be able to create movement that they can use by, if nothing else, punching a fool in the face or striking for the floating ribs or something similar. So I'd say that and a kick in the face is more how it was and should be.

~

Anyway, the philosophy that surrounds many Aikido dojo's kind of like a miasma unfortunately attracts the kind of person that doesn't really want to learn how to inflict damage on another human being. That's fine, maybe even good, but it's somewhat unfortunate from my perspective since the dojo's that are full of people who have the kind of edge to their personality that more "practical" martial arts usually attract are full of examples of people who can do some very scary things. Things that appear to me to be innovative and useful because of how different Aikido tends to be.

[Gx1080]

"hurr durr everybody who disagrees with me is a retard"

Well, aren't you a little cock sucker.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

They're new...but are any of them demonstrably more effective than Shao-lin, Kenpo, Savate, or Capoeira?

I don't know about conclusive evidence, but Krav Maga certainly has a reputation as the most lethally effective martial art ever made.

Krav Maga is based on getting really good at punching people in the balls in ways a sane person couldn't imagine balls could be punched. A lot of martial arts people don't consider that a real fighting style, but I don't think I want to fight someone skilled in Krav Maga.

[Josh_Kablack]

There is no art that is clearly superior in all situations, for all people, against all attackers.

I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[A Man In Black]

How did this go from a relatable discussion about keeping skills current and fresh in your mind to nerds who've never thrown a punch in anger gabbing on about martial arts?

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I've never thrown a punch, because my first instinct is to start grappling someone. And yes, I have thrown multiple people in anger. Does that count?

[darkmaster]

I think it was something about there only being so many ways you can hit someone. And while yes there are only so many ways to actually punch someone in the face, there are an infinite numbers of ways to deliver and combine punches, kicks, and even stabs to the face.

As to elves, so we might at some point get back to the topic, does it honestly matter if their skills degrade or not? Really, an elf fighter who's four hundred years old and level ten is going to have nearly the same number of skill points as a human fighter of the same level. It honestly doesn’t matter much if your description is “extremely skilled” if there’s a limit on how skilled you can be at any given time, that’s not your age of course, like say your level, you will only ever be that skilled at that level, period.

[echoVanguard]

Aikido (and its relative, HapKiDo) both come from Daitoryu Aikijijutsu (apologies for butchering that spelling).

Daito-ryu (Great Eastern School) Aiki-jujutsu (Striking Gentle Art) is the correct way to spell it. But the statement in question is a bit disingenuous, since both Aikido and Hapkido are very different despite having common roots. Aikido is generally a sort of defanged judo, focusing on throws and holds that protect the attacker from injury, while Hapkido is a hybrid martial art combining grappling elements of jujutsu with striking techniques from taekwondo and tang soo do. The difference between both of these martial arts and Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu is also pretty extreme, since Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu is primarily a fighting art as opposed to a self-defense art (and quite frankly, is a hell of a lot more dangerous than the other two). A competent practitioner of any of the three martial arts can deal some serious damage in a fight, but Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu has a pretty strong focus on killing techniques (especially the Icho-yama-ryu traditions), as well as some crazy stuff like "the best way to remove your opponent's eyeball".

echo

[fectin]

A lot of martial arts are situational, or designed to counter something in particular. You know Mantis style? That ridiculous looking thing that you only see in Jackie Chan movies? That's a real style, and it counters punching, and it works scarily well. I don't think it does anything else well though, and it's hard to pretend to be badass when you're imitating a bug.

Also, I don't know what dojo you went to, but my instructor always pointed out that it was easier to do the throws when your opponent was distracted, and that a blow to the face was fairly distracting (atemi).

[JigokuBosatsu]

I have a great book from a Mantis style expert, on how to use a bamboo flute as a weapon. It has probably the best tagline ever...

"WHEN THE FLUTE COMES OUT, SOMEONE IS GOING TO DIE."

And you thought those bard levels were a waste.

[shadzar]

So, why should an immortal elf be that much better at anything than a dedicated mortal, given that both need to spend the same amount of training just to keep up?

you touch on the asnwer to your own problem...

there is the reason longer living classes stopped gaining levels in the game because they stopped adventuring and training those skills etc.

you have to start learning somewhere, so other than skill atrophy when you keep training being prevented, you can learn more things. so a longer living race, continually preventing atrophy while learning new things, can become better than others BECAUSE they live longer...they simply have more time to learn more things.

[TheFlatline]

Let's also stop and think for a moment on the plight of an immortal elf. This elf is going to live forever. That means thousands and thousands of years.

Let's say 4000 years. Which is short in an IE's lifespan. Even without skill atrophy, think of how much time you're spending learning shit that just won't be useful in another hundred years or so. I mean, you start out learning Mesopotamian and learning how to count and do math in base fucking 60 (which is only useful in that our time system still is based in 60... at first...). So you learn pottery and how to engrave and embed cuneiform and all the cultural norms and the rights and all that bullshit because they're the only fucking game in town if you want to talk, drink, or get your knob polished.

Then they go away and you wander over to the Egyptians. Now you have to learn their language, farming system, how to brew, how to fucking count all over again, all their stupid cultural norms and religions (which you know are fucking bullshit because you remember when they didn't exist, but you *still* have to memorize or else you're not going to fit in).

Then you hear about the Greeks, and go check them out. Time to learn more fucking languages and customs and skills. Or maybe the Hebrews. Or the Romans. Or you say fuck it and go check out the Picts. Time to learn Pictish. And Latin since the Romans had colonized England. And later Gaelic, and peat bog farming, and thatching, and stone laying, and how to fight with a gladius, and how to shoot a yew longbow, and how to cut trees, and how to fish, and god fucking damn it you end up having to learn a lot of skills.

So yeah, in 2000 years, before Jesus even shows up, you're looking at dozens and maybe even hundreds of skills to be proficient in, if not master, in order to blend into that society.

So. Even with perfect memory and no skill atrophy, I expect an IE's character sheet to be like 600 pages of skills like "Underwater Basket Weaving (Celtic Patterns)- 4(6)" and "Haggling (Base 60 money system) 5(7)" and "Old English 5", "Middle English 4", and "19th Century British Imperial Colloquialisms 6".

That's not even counting abandoned/dead skills. "Repairing 8-track: 2" or "Satiric Ballad Composition: 3" and shit like that which the IE couldn't possibly use any more but represents time and effort and experience.

After ten thousand years or so of being alive and having to do this shit over and over and over again it seems like common sense that an IE would be extremely hesitant to start learning some flash in the pan shit until he was sure it was going to be a skill with some kind of longevity. Fencing and martial arts probably seem like good martial options- they've been around a thousand years. Guns too- they've been around 3-400 years. That's like six months for us, but the iPhone took off in 6 months and people could see it was some big shit. This matrix shit though? That might as well have come out yesterday. I mean shit all that decking shit that you dropped dozens of experience points into in SR3 days is outdated already.

Point being, Immortal Elves with thousands and thousands of experience points with of skills, even without skill atrophy, won't necessarily be experts at every relevant skill. Odds are they probably did something at some point *instead* of learning that one particular skill to super powerful levels.

I mean, why even bother concentrating on stabbing people with a sword when you can drop a telephone pole of tungsten on the person from orbit and it'd go off with the same destructive force as a small yield nuclear weapon.