Sell Me On SAGA

[PhoneLobster]

Your First-Level Stun Jedi can use Stun at most 3 times per fight.

Excellent, a first level character that can totally kick three asses a fight. With the option to kick harder with racial rerolls or dark side double action, weee!

That's probably enough, but it means he has no other force powers. On a roll of 10, he gets a 22, which is enough to give the stormtrooper a -5 penalty to everything.

Here is part of the cool thing though, and thats the OTHER results you can get. Like the part where you CAN'T fail, even on a 1, or the part where you instant KO on a high roll.

The other part that is cool is the -5 penalty to everything, it makes it easier for you to wack him with anything else, including another stun that WILL succeed.

That stormtrooper, if a regular stormtrooper, is effectively out of action... until he spends a turn recovering.

Hurray, I stole an action, or more than one action, from a low level mook who can't survive a single hit, AND made him easier to hit. He is SO dead.

A if the Rodian with a gun rolls a 10, he hits for 3d8 damage, probably killing that stormtrooper. He also And All I've assumed in my build is 17 DEX and Weapon Focus.

OK, so all you are assuming then is a what +4 to attack?

What the hell? My jedi can still totally have an uber like +2 or +3 with a blaster or a saber no problem.

Cripes, I only mostly kill him maybe 5-15 percent less of the time or something when shooting. That jedi paid SO much for the ability to be on the fast track to force lightning my enemies on the other side of the solar system when they arrive at the star port customs depot with galactic jet lag.

Of course that neatly enough is pretty similar to or smaller than the defence penalty he is copping from stun, or if you insist being knocked over by slam, so hurrah!

No really, just explain to me a second. My character can pile the junk up and have a +7 direct attack bonus that targets the biggest defence score in the game and MAYBE a +7 force use bonus, or he can pile the junk up and have a +14 or 15 force use which targets whatever defence score you like (like oh, the lowest ones) and maybe with a reroll in return for knocking down to a +2 or 3 direct attack bonus. Which would you pick?

He still has a feat and a talent to do something cool. PLUS skills like Treat Injury, Mechanics, and Use Computer.

Very few talents do anything cool, especially outside of Jedi and Force talents, and if staying true to type for someone advocating Rodians with blasters with elite skills like fixing the car, bandaging a scraped knee, and using google you pick a class like scoundrel or in anyway actually invest in those as class skill choices then I suspect your character will never actually ever be able to do "something cool" compared to ANY jedi build.

[virgil]

Oh, just so you know, there is not a single way for you to get a free reroll for your Use the Force skill unless you're a Kel Dorian; and then only for detecting other Force users and casting augury.

In order to get that 'dark side double action' talent, you need to set a talent on fire beforehand, and even then you only get it once per day.

With that +14 UtF bonus (since you are human), you do anywhere from 2 to 5 steps down the condition track, so you have a 25% of KOing a single stormtrooper. If you don't take him down in one hit (which is probable), then you have to spend a round to smack him down.

You're doing an equal job at killing stormtroopers as the rodian with a blaster...only the rodian can kill a whole lot more in a single fight, while you have to stop at the third one and then svck with a rifle or hope there aren't many stormtroopers still standing as you go charging into them with your glow-stick. And you will be crap with a blaster compared to the rodian, because it will barely be a +1 if you're so lucky as to have a second 18 to put in Dexterity; while our rodian will have a +5 or +6.

[PhoneLobster]

You're doing an equal job at killing stormtroopers as the rodian with a blaster...only the rodian can kill a whole lot more in a single fight

Pull the other one its got bells on.

If EITHER character faces off against more than 3 to 1 storm trooper odds at that level they are DEAD. If its "a whole lot more" than that then they are VERY dead.

The Rodian with a blaster fails to kill more than the jedi because he is DEAD.

Holy crap how basic a concept do I need to introduce next?

I mean screw the rest of it...

Is there anyone who supports the saga rules who doesn't say things like, "A level 1 rodian with a blaster can kill a whole lot more than three storm troopers in a single fight" or "Having Treat Injury and Computer Use makes up for not being a Jedi" ?

Because I don't think there is much point talking about them if thats the level of discussion.

[Catharz]

The only thing which can use skills like Use Computer and Mechanics to compete with a Jedi is a droid. Force users get the crazy 'blow all my force points in one combat and get them right back', while droids are the druid/artificers.

[Jacob_Orlove]

1187068297[/unixtime]]And belive me, you may be level three or even five, and if you aren't careful, stormtroopers will still jack you up. The regular ones are tougher than you think, and the heavies are totally crazy. Even if you have Deflect does 6 points a round to you regardless of your Reflex until you're smart enough to grab Evasion or seek cover.

"Or seek cover"? So, like, the big weakness of the Jedi is that they can't just stand out in the open and hit people with force powers, they have to actually take cover from blaster fire and rock out from behind a support beam or crate or whatever? Is that actually even an issue? I mean, in the movies, everyone was ducking behind random bits of architechture to dodge blaster fire, so I assume in-game combats will have some amount of cover available.

[Fuzzy_logic]

Okay, first of all, droids are really awesome. You want to have one, so you want to have somebody with Mechanics and Computer Use. Someone other than the droid, ideally. Note that these skills also let you contribute to starship combat.

Treat Injury is awesome. I don't know why you're denigrating the ability to, you know, *not die* but it's way, way better than force healing.

You're still underestimating three things: How much your Stun Jedi sucks, how good guns are, and how easy it is to replicate.

First, your Jedi. Yes, he needs deflect. You're putting your high numbers in WIS and CHA, leaving you with 13 DEX. Your Reflex is 12. And no, contrary to what you've said, he can't use a gun. He's nonproficient with blasters, so he's attacking at -3. You have at most +1 INT bonus, so you have initiative, perception, UTF, and ONE other skill.

A Rodian Scoundrel or Soldier, on the other hand, can easily be +5, which hits Stormtroopers on 11+ and Battle Droids on 4+. He also has a Reflex of around 16. He also goes first most fights (he has a perception re-roll and a higher initiative). He also has actual skills.

Even if you want to own people with skill checks, there's no reason you need the Force. Just take Skill Focus: Persuasion. It's seriously a DC15 check to make a stormtrooper run away. That's pretty much an auto-succeed. be a Noble, and take either Presence, or if you don't mind spending full-rounds on your OHKOs, Wealth. Good times.

[Fuzzy_logic]

Here, let me throw together some characters for the sake of comparison. If I've misrepresented your Jedi, please let me know. The Scoundrel it toally unoptimised, but very simple.

Taser, Human Jedi 1
Str 8 Dex 13 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 15
HP 30 Fort 11 Ref 12 Will 13
Attacks: Lightsaber +0 2d8-1, Bow +2 1d6
Talents: Deflect
Feats: Proficiencies (Simple, Lightsaber), Force Sensitive,
Skill Focus: UTF, Force Training (Force Stun X3)

Skills: UTF +12 Initiative +6 Perception +7 Pilot +6

Trigger, Rodian Scoundrel 1
Str 8 Dex 17 Con 13 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 8
HP 19 Fort 12 Ref 16 Will 12
Attacks: Blaster +5 (skirmish, point blank) 3d6+1
Talents: Skirmisher
Feats: Skill Focus: Initiative, Point Blank Shot, proficiencies (Simple, Pistols)
Skills: Initiative +13 Perception +5 (Re-roll, Low-Light) Mechanics +7 Computers +7 Pilot +8
Comparison:

OFFENSE: Against Stormtroopers the Jedi instakills on an 18+, sends to -10 on a 13+, -5 on an 8+, and -2 on a 3+. If we consider -10 as good as dead, he kills almost half the time and weakens the rest of the time.

The Rodian, by contrast, hits half the time and kills just over half of those, so he kills a stormie every 3-4 rounds.

Advantage: Jedi. (Note though that while Stormies have Ref 16 Will 10, Battel Droids have Ref 9 Will 11)

DEFENSE:

Stormies hit you on an 8+ and me on a 12+. However, Deflect saves the day, making you effectively almost impossible to hit unless many soldiers gang up on you. Note that even a trooper pushed to -5 hits you on 13+, so he's definitely still player in the fight. Still, I'm going to have to say

Advantage: Jedi.

FIRST ROUND

Here's where you start to have problems.

Under normal circumstances, my rodian goes first every time. He has initiative so high mooks practically can't win, and he's rarely surprised either. He will shoot first every time, catching you flat-footed (not that sotrmies or droids care), maybe killing an enemy befor ehe gets off an attack, and certainly ducking behind any available cover.

Your character should *usually* have the upper hand as well. He's much slower than me but still faster than mooks, and his perception is about even with a random stealth-trained enemy. However, he is occasionall gonna get caught by surprise, and then he's totally screwed. His Reflex drops to 11, he can't use deflect, and his Fort isn't that hot either.

Advantage: Scoundrel

HEALING:

The Jedi can heal himself 1 HP per hour with Force Trance. The Rodian has no self-healing. He can, however, heal and upgrade the party droid.

Advantage: Tie.

OTHER:

My rodian is a better pilot, able to contribute to starship combat by recharging shields or aiding attacks, and has mechanical abilities which might come in handy in ground-bound adventures as well.

Advantage: Scoundrel.

The Jedi might be a slightly stronger, especially in arena-style games, but certainly isn't uniformly dominant.

[Voss]

1187111143[/unixtime]]
Even if you want to own people with skill checks, there's no reason you need the Force. Just take Skill Focus: Persuasion. It's seriously a DC15 check to make a stormtrooper run away. That's pretty much an auto-succeed.

This doesn't strike you as, well, a serious flaw in the system?
Thats another 2+/3+ d20 roll. At first level. Thats beyond fvcked up.

Of course, so is that fact that a gun that does 3d6 is pretty much a one shot kill for stormtroopers (which apparently aren't trained soldiers, even though that was kind of the point of them). But isn't for first level PCs, who have 25-30 hps for no apparent reason.

But seriously, are you expected to fight hordes of one-shot non-threats for the entire 20 levels? Interrupted solely by boss fights? Because thats what I'm getting from your posts.

[bitnine]

1187071191[/unixtime]]On a roll of 10, he gets a 22, which is enough to give the stormtrooper a -5 penalty to everything. That stormtrooper, if a regular stormtrooper, is effectively out of action... until he spends a turn recovering.

Wait... I'm confused. Are you asserting that there's an effective difference between a mook with -5 to everything needing an action to recover and a dead mook? 'Cause if so, I'm sort of thinking that I could lay down some favorable odds about those two things not diverging and start laying down cash money and make a mint.

[Fuzzy_logic]

If he gets knocked to minus five, he makes an attack roll with a modifier of -1, starts recovering, and then makes an attack roll at +2 the next round.

Neither of those attacks is worth ignoring. Remember, the Stun Jedi is only AC 12 before Deflect, so both of those attacks are actually rather threatening. Not to mention that they could be attacking his friends.

And both stormies and Battle Droids do 12 damage a shot, so even if they only hit a quarter of the time they're dangerous.

[Captain_Bleach]

In my SAGA games that I play, I realize that Stormtroopers and other mooks are pretty much dead against anyone with Persuasion. In addition, I imply that Stormtroopers are immune to being intimidated, blackmailed, bribed, seduced, etc.

[virgil]

And I never said they had to be in a row, the horde of stormtroopers. If there's an encounter in less than a minute from the last, then your Jedi won't have his force powers reset, and has to wait another minute after that fight is over; during which time he's resting. But he can't rest with certainty, because he can't work that control panel that well to keep it shut for when more come in, and he can't hide worth a damn...

Alright PhoneLobster, I admit it. I don't understand your obsession that if you can't be THE most awesome at killing, then you shouldn't be playing. All the other classes show a wider range of competence at stuff other than being a cannon with a refractory period, and yet aren't left in the dust ("Looks like you killed five mooks to everyone else's three, have a cookie.").

In fact, I've mentioned that whole non-combat thing to you before, and you're only real response it doesn't matter, because Jedi should be as good everyone else; which doesn't even address the fact that SAGA doesn't let that happen. Even then, that argument doesn't really cover your qualms with SAGA, that's just your opinion on the philosophy of RPGs in general.

Side note, Force Stun's been errata'd to target Damage Threshold instead of Will Defense. This technically makes troopers more resistant (by a whole two points), but the difference is minimal until you start taking feats/gear that raise Fortitude defense and/or damage threshold (which isn't available for Will).

Come to think of it, how much of the rules have you actually read? You keep throwing up little things here and there that aren't even possible...like having a +15 UtF at first level and being able to use Force Stun at the same time, having rerolls on your UtF checks, your 1st level Force Stun kiddie having a +2 or +3 with a blaster, etc.

[Fuzzy_logic]

Sweet talents, by Class

SOLDIER

For Any Character: Indomitable, Devastating Attack
For Some Characters: Armored Defense, Improved Armored Defense, Stunning Strike,

Scoundrel

For Any Character: Fool's Luck
For Some Characters: Dastardly Strike

Scout

For Any Character: Acute Senses, Improved Initiative, Evasion
For Some Characters: Improved Stealth, Hidden Movement, Total Concealment


Noble
For Any Character: Wealth, Bolster, Confidence, Fervor, Zeal
For Some Characters: Born Leader, Coordinate, Trust

That's a lot of talents. If you have to cherry-pick to get enough you like, go ahead and cherry pick. You'll get higher defenses and free feats that way. And remember, at level 7, you can go PrC

[Artless]

1187125328[/unixtime]]having rerolls on your UtF checks

He's probably talking about the Dathomiri Witch talent Adept Spellcaster. Make the power a full-round action to reroll the check.

[virgil]

In which case, you've denied yourself access to the Jedi Knight/Master & Sith Apprentice/Lord PrC, and all the abilities they provide. This may or may not make a difference to your character as it depends on the value you place in those PrC talents over the others.

You might not even be able to take levels in Jedi if you're one of those variant traditions (or vice versa), but I don't believe there's a rule against it, so that's not a stance I'm quite ready to take.

[Fuzzy_logic]

Actually, If your DM lets you, you can totally take Jedi and Sith PrCs. There's no rule saying you can only be part of *one* Force tradition, and indeed, the Sith have no problem recruiting form others.

Jedi would be harder, but it wouldn't be inconceivable for a Dathomiri Witch to enter the Order later in life.

[PhoneLobster]

Alright PhoneLobster, I admit it. I don't understand your obsession that if you can't be THE most awesome at killing

So you're pulling the "I'm calling you are a power game so you are evil and therefore wrong" argument AGAIN.

Its utter stupidity. I'm saying divergence is crap and SAGA is crapper, and you say "so you must want to be the most awesome at killing".

That is fundamentally a false accusation.

Screw the rest of my response, you want to defend your position and recieve some respect you take shit like that back and you eat it.

Because I, and I suspect pretty much anyone else around here got no time for that old chestnut.

Otherwise. Go back to WOTC.

[Lago_AM3P]

I have a mild complaint about Star Wars stuff, especially RPG things like Knights of the Old Republic.

I like Star Wars. I think Jedi are the cat's meow and all that and I think the raid on the Death Star in the first movie was one of the coolest moments ever. I mean, it fascinated me at the time and even now at how it made charging into a base with millions of people with nothing more in your corner pocket than an old man and a wookie seem like a GOOD IDEA and the visuals and shiny paranoia of the labyrinthine maze blah-blah-blah a bunch of pseudo-intellectual bullshit.

But I don't understand anything about what you guys are talking about. What the heck is a 'Dathomiri Witch'? Why should I care? I have no clue. Screw the rules; if you have someone who wants to play Star Wars but hasn't gone into the fandom beyond, well, the movies is this game going to alienate them?

[virgil]

No, I'm not pulling that argument out, you are just trying to play the part of the victim. You ignore the fact that the Jedi have noticeable flaws that keep them from being the only choice for a character, marginalizing the ability to have skills as being worthless.

I am aware that divergence is crap, and Star Wars does have divergence, but not on the same level of severity or pervasiveness of other d20 systems; which is why I consider it an improvement (especially over Star Wars RCR). I'm having to house rule the front-loading of skill bonuses, but it's an obvious and simple fix, though a bit saddening I have to do it.

I don't consider Saga to be a godsend or some kind of new genre-defining advancement, and never did.

I appreciate Fuzzy_Logic's list of good talents that aren't just random +1s, as there's obviously enough for a multiclasser to fill himself up with all the way up to level 20. It would be nice if there were more official ones like that, but I have yet to see a system where I didn't house rule something...or do you consider a system not even worth touching the moment you have to make a house rule?

[Artless]

There's nothing stopping someone who isn't as familiar with all the silly expanded universe content from enjoying the game. Ignoring the Jensaarai and Dathomiri crap actually makes the setting taste a little better to me, personally.

[Voss]

1187167282[/unixtime]]

I am aware that divergence is crap, and Star Wars does have divergence, but not on the same level of severity or pervasiveness of other d20 systems; which is why I consider it an improvement (especially over Star Wars RCR). I'm having to house rule the front-loading of skill bonuses, but it's an obvious and simple fix, though a bit saddening I have to do it.

I appreciate Fuzzy_Logic's list of good talents that aren't just random +1s, as there's obviously enough for a multiclasser to fill himself up with all the way up to level 20. It would be nice if there were more official ones like that, but I have yet to see a system where I didn't house rule something...or do you consider a system not even worth touching the moment you have to make a house rule?

Well, there is a problem (to my mind) of house ruling a fundamental, intentional change (like the front loaded skills) that has a huge chunk of the system is based around it.

The game seems to revolve around building a character that walks through, winning on 3+, or having characters that are required to pray for 15+. That goes beyond divergence and into the realm of completely buggered.

Throw in guns with a fairly static damage output (you may get roll 4 dice instead of 3, if you take the right feats. Whoa!) Which are vaguely threatening to 1st level characters (unless that nat 20 pops up), or not at all threatening to higher level characters, unless you sit down and design and cherry pick a character that revolves around ganking folks with guns.

And I guess you can have encounters that don't involve butchering mooks or dice-juggling with bosses, but the design premise seems to revolve around just those sorts of encounters.

The whole thing feels like they were aiming for 'simple', but hit 'stupid' instead, and left a huge chasm pointing directly to 'here is how you break the game- its the only way to win'. And its even easier to break than D&D- you can do it at level 1 with basic classes, and its actually more of an effort to keep doing it as you go up in level.

[virgil]

I hardly think that it's some kind of fundamental aspect of gameplay, and is just an easy target for criticism.

[Fuzzy_logic]

Sure, in most SAGA games, butchering mooks or fighting bosses is most of what you do. Most D&D games, too.

I don't know why you think gun damage doesn't scale up, because it toally does. A Pistol does 3d6 damage. With a Heavy Repeating Blaster and Burst Fire you can do 5d10. With 2 Heavy Pistols and Rapid Shot you can do 8d8.

If that's not good enough for you, ride around on a speeder bike using Double Attack and Rapid Shot and deal 10d10.

Of course, if you don't care about damage and just want to stack up the condition track, you can do that too. With Dastardly Strike, Hunter's Mark, Knockdown Shot and that other Gunslinger talent, you can start each day with a warm cup of -5 to all rolls + prone.

[Catharz]

I guess if force skills were very effective against high-level characters, Jedi wouldn't solve all of their conflicts with light saber duels.

[Voss]

1187205468[/unixtime]]Sure, in most SAGA games, butchering mooks or fighting bosses is most of what you do. Most D&D games, too.

I don't know why you think gun damage doesn't scale up, because it toally does. A Pistol does 3d6 damage. With a Heavy Repeating Blaster and Burst Fire you can do 5d10. With 2 Heavy Pistols and Rapid Shot you can do 8d8.

All of which you can do at 1st or 2nd level with the right proficiencies and feats, right? That 2 heavy pistol guy isn't actually doing 8d8 in a single shot, is he?
Specifics aside, the damage isn't going up in a way thats comparable to the HP progression.

And yeah, in D&D, there is this thing with CR appropriate encounters. A greater earth elemental is neither a mook nor a boss fight for a 9th level party. While you can fight hordes of weenies, it isn't the staple that it seems to be in SAGA. From the sample stuff they put on their website, the fights seem to be angled around a mass of backdrop characters that die if they get hit, but might be dangerous if they roll a nat 20.