Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[GâtFromKI]

Disengaging feint is a weaker version of the withdraw action that everyone gets for free (or did they remove that in PF?)

No, they didn't remove the withdraw action. That's simply pathfinder's UM/UC design: create some random useless crap which is weaker than base option, add some random overly complex mechanic to obscure this fact, and publish. Bonus points if SKR comes and explains that trap options are a good thing to have in the game for roleplay reasons.

eg there's a magus archetype who gain a make whole effect at level 11. Including new mechanic relying on arcane pool and negative levels. Yes, negative levels. That's the price you must afford to gain the overwhelming power of make whole!


Seriously, could you create a new thread?

A paizil like me can't agree that "pathfinder is still bad" if he thinks it wasn't bad at the beginning; but a paizil like me can easily agree that Pathfinder goes worse and worse, and that the two last splatbooks contain essentially unusable random imbalanced and untested shit.

[Swordslinger]

Actually, Power Attack is generally weaker in PF than in 3.5. One plus is you get a 3:1 ratio on a two-handed weapon, but you don't get to choose how much of a penalty you take. It's always -1, with another -1 penalty every four levels.

Even nerfed power attack? Damn, Pathfinder is a total wizard wank edition.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Even nerfed power attack? Damn, Pathfinder is a total wizard wank edition.

As a Pathfinder player I feel I need to defend the system...



No way, a Wizard can only be impossible to surprise and get +9 to init without any Dex investment at all before spells in the core rulebook for Pathfinder.

Fuck you for thinking they love wizards.

As a side note, check out an awesome fighter archetype, the Two-Handed Fighter. Yes, you're reading that correctly. His 3rd level ability is better than his 7th level ability. Why doesn't he just get double strength on all his attacks in a full attack? Because that would be overpowered. He only gets that bonus on the attacks that might not hit, especially if he uses the "holy shit you get +4 damage per to-hit sacrificed" power attack he gains at level 15.

They should really consider errating the 19th level power they give the two-handed fighter from "Devastating Blow" to "Devastating Blow to our credibility as game designers, we are clearly retarded." Instead of making 3 attacks I get to make ONE critical threat that doesn't even use any of the items I have that boost my crits!? YESSSSSSSSSSSSS! Also fuck you fighters, that attack takes a -5 penalty because I know you THOUGHT about using the power attack boost you got at level 15.

Thank you Pathfinder, you made it so those fighters didn't steal my Wizard's spotlight. Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be using double D20 rolls for anything important every combat round of the day while getting a +retarded init bonus and being incapable of being surprised. Oh, and I have no banned opposition schools because of an arcane discovery that I burned a bonus feat on.

At level 20 fighters get the awesome ability to auto-confirm crits that are slightly more powerful than normal whereas all a Wizard gets is the ability to auto-roll natural 20s for init, have a permanent summon monster of any level or do any number of retarded things.

A sorcerer gets to cast 9th level spells (of any class because hey, why not) using 3 levels worth of spell slots at level 16 with an item, or level 20 without one.

First. Fucking. Post.

Yes, I did edit it three times.

[RobbyPants]

Actually, Power Attack is generally weaker in PF than in 3.5. One plus is you get a 3:1 ratio on a two-handed weapon, but you don't get to choose how much of a penalty you take. It's always -1, with another -1 penalty every four levels.

Even nerfed power attack? Damn, Pathfinder is a total wizard wank edition.

Back when Roy used to post here, he referred to it as "Caster Edition".

[Dominicius]

Hey its cool that we got new people joining our ever expanding circle of hate but I wonder, how did you guys manage to stumble upon this place?

[Psychic Robot]

They should really consider errating the 19th level power they give the two-handed fighter from "Devastating Blow" to "Devastating Blow to our credibility as game designers, we are clearly retarded."

I love these new posters

[Pseudo Stupidity]

I lurked here for a bit, I think I found you guys because of some link on gitp or something like that. The posts here are much more entertaining, and it has sufficiently few posters that most of the people are contributing something meaningful (even if that something is just snark) or easily ignored.

I always disliked the "everyone is special and we love you all" feeling I got from gitp. Even the most retarded points would be met by "I respectfully disagree with you, kind sir."

I've played more Pathfinder than 3.5 (never played 3.5). I started off as a 4e player, actually. It was kind of samey at lower levels, but at level 8 combat was interesting if you didn't optimize to the teeth so only a certain attack pattern was worth it.

I ended up having some fun with theoretical optimization and made a Wizard who can take on infinite Gold Dragons once he hit level...28 I think? It did assume they all showed up in one encounter, but hey, why not. Doing optimization made me realize 4e is pretty flawed, but I enjoyed playing it for what that's worth. I played it at the levels before the math broke.

Going to Pathfinder makes me miss 4e as the power level is all sorts of retarded. Level 1 wizards should not, for instance, be able to easily attain init of +14. You can do +16 if you really want to care about Dex, but then you're only getting a con of 12 or so. Auto-winning init is neat, but you do that just by being a Wizard once you touch level 8.

[Josh_Kablack]

If any of you actually used Miniatures in your games, then Disengaging Feint's application should have been obvious. It's still a bit of an edge case and damn sure not worth a feat.

But just like in 3.5, the Pathfinder Withdraw only means that the first square you leave is not threatened.

So it's spending a feat to be able to make and opposed check to withdraw against enemies with 10' or more or natural reach and not provoke when you leave the second, third or Nth square inside their threatened area. Now with the Int and two-feat chain prereq I seriously have to wonder why the hell you're not just casting Dimension Door on the defensive to withdraw or using your 9+ ranks and +5 magic widget to auto-succeed at Tumble to avoid AoOs by the level that this can come online. Heck I have to wonder why with those prereqs you're not buying the cruddy needlessly overnerfed PF versions of Improved Trip or Improved Disarm each of which can help you withdraw in some similar cases while also doing other things in other cases.

Even if for some reason you lack those sorts of answers to AoOs by 6th+ level, you still have access to the simple expedients of a diagonal 5' step behind another party member to gain cover or just taking Total Defense + move action and hoping the +4 AC is enough.

And that's all working under the limited assumption that you actually want to withdraw instead of having a weapon or touch spell ready or having killing the critter before it got into melee.

But the feat is not totally useless nor self-destructive so sadly, it's a far cry from the worst feat out there.

[Juton]

Power attack, and the Druid's wildshape are examples of changes I think actually benefit most groups over all. In that most groups are comprised wholly or in part of people who are not skilled optimizers. PF power attack is a better feat than 3.5 power attack, if you are concerned with average damage and if you are stuck to the core book or can't optimize well.

It sucks that I lose a pretty essential part of a melee character's abilities in my builds, but from what I've seen I benefit in the long run because my party members suck less.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

If any of you actually used mini's Disengaging Feint weird corner case application would have been obvious.

Because just like 3.5, the Pathfinder Withdraw only means that the first square you leave is not threatened.

So it's spending a feat to be able to make and opposed check to withdraw against enemies with 10' or more or natural reach and not provoke when you leave the second, third or Nth square inside their threatened area. Now with the Int and two-feat chain prereq I seriously have to wonder why the hell you're not just casting Dimension Door on the defensive to withdraw by the level it comes online or using your 9+ ranks of Tumble to avoid AoOs or just taking Total Defense + move action and hoping the +4 AC is enough. Heck I have to wonder why with those prereqs you're not buying the cruddy needlessly overnerfed PF versions of Improved Trip or Improved Disarm each of which can help you withdraw in some similar cases while also doing other things in other cases.

But it's not totally useless, so it's a far cry from the worst feat out there.

No, you only don't provoke for the first square with that feat.

Read the last sentence.

The feat is strictly worse than using the withdraw action, as it only adds a chance of failure to a move everyone could already do. Don't worry, at least you got to burn a feat to be worse at something everyone else can do for free.

[Josh_Kablack]

Okay, I fail at reading poor wordings.

It's still not completely worthless, the edge case just got much much thinner.

Because you totally can use the feat while Blinded or against large invisible opponents with natural reach

Amazingly enough that's still better than the 3.0 Eagle Claw Attack which did absolutely nothing or the Savage Species Death Throes feat which requires a character to die in order to make use of it.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Fuck you. It's useless against anyone with reach automatically (you provoke for everything that isn't the first square). It's only useful if you are blind and adjacent to a monster without reach (or are a square away per 5'ft of reach the monster has), but you still move half-speed while blind and there is not a single monster in the universe who won't catch you anyways. You still die, you just don't get full attacked every round until you die.

That was a solid play though, well done.

Edit 2 because I edit every post: I enjoy not having a stupid forum filter.

[Chamomile]

I lurked here for a bit, I think I found you guys because of some link on gitp or something like that.

So this is Stubbazubba's fault.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

I have no idea who that is, so yes.

[GâtFromKI]

Hey its cool that we got new people joining our ever expanding circle of hate but I wonder, how did you guys manage to stumble upon this place?

Although the first rule of the den is you do not talk about the den, there is sometime a link from the Paizo board.

Actually, you should thanks Paizo for expanding the circle of haters. UC and UM contain 50% unusable content or more... Unusable (not useless), either because they are poorly written (eg synthesist), because they can't reasonably be used in actual game (eg the 30 rolls needed to resolve weird word, 30/day), because they forget to write important technical information (eg the range of ice tomb), or because of blatant imbalance (eg Death or glory for underpowered material, and Ice tomb for overpowered material).

Pathfinder's designer have some really good ideas, but they show an overwhelming incompetence at writing usable rules. And personally, I can have ideas, I only need rules. Having ideas is easy, turning those ideas into playable balanced material takes much time; I don't have this time to spend, that's why I'm paying money for rules...

... Except the published rules are unusable. And thus, you gain a new hater.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

What good ideas are you even talking about?

I've played Pathfinder from its hideous start, and nothing compares to Divination wizards. The "foresight" subschool only made this problem more obvious, but the game has been horribly broken from day one. Each day does add more, stranger brokenness than the last one, but it was bad enough before.

Sure, the ninja completely replaces the rogue class (which needed replacing), but casters just kept getting more and more powerful as mundanes got more and more trap options. Two-handed fighter was almost better than a normal fighter (might still be, by an infinitely small amount), but they had to nerf it for some reason.

Look at "Spell Perfection" then look at any feat they gave Mundane classes ever. Is there even a comparison? Sorcerers can spam quickened DC 34 stinking clouds from every level 3 or above slot they have (add rods of persist for fun) and that isn't even abusive. You get that from burning three feats total and not thinking "wouldn't flesh to stone be better and less likely to be resisted?" Sorcerers get 12 feats, so you can do that and not be gimped AT ALL in other things. If you really care at all you're spamming focused, persistant, quickened DC 34 stinking clouds every single slot you have. All your other slots are spent casting 9th level spells for 3 spell levels worth of slots.

Mundanes have to bend over backwards to be somewhere near effective, but casters do it by stumbling upon one feat or using class features as written.

THIS HAS BEEN LEGAL FROM DAY ONE

Look at Arcane Apotheosis and witness the power of buying any staff ever that contains 9th level spells from any class. Why yes, my sorcerer CAN cast miracle and wish with no gp cost as a spell that he can just burn 3 1st level slots for. He can do this at level 16 thanks to a Robe of Arcane Heritage.

Edit: It's worth mentioning a Human sorcerer with the Arcane bloodline gets something like 7 spells of each level known by the time he hits level 20. Still no wizard, but if you abuse Arcane Apotheosis the sorcerer is more versatile and more powerful. Add on a ring of "Bestow Grace" and you get saves that are in the are of +30 or more for your lowest save for about 40k gold.

[GâtFromKI]

Oh, and I have no banned opposition schools because of an arcane discovery that I burned a bonus feat on.

The whole arcane discoveries thing is completely retarded.

"Arcane discoveries are not wizard-only-feat, but you can expand a wizard's bonus feat to gain one. You can also expand a regular feat to gain an arcane discovery, although they are totally not feat. And while they aren't feat at all, some of them give you the benefit of feats like craft construct". You shouldn't be surprised by obtaining retarded result when using retarded concept.


----
Actually, arcane discovery is retarded but it fit well in Pathfinder's class design.

The first rule of pathfinder's class design is: your class obtain some Stuff at some levels, and some Other Stuff at some other levels. Stuff can be feat, bonus feat, talent, arcana, rage power, etc; Other Stuff can be feat, bonus feat, talent, arcana, rage power, etc.

The second rule of pathfinder's class design is: Stuff is a completely different thing than Other Stuff. Other Stuff is a totally different thing than Stuff.

The third rule of pathfinder's class design is: you can use Stuff, which is a completely different thing than Other Stuff, to gain Other Stuff.

The fourth rule of pathfinder's class design is: you can use Other Stuff, which is a totally different thing than Stuff, to gain Stuff.

eg : a magus gain an Arcana, which is a completely different thing than a feat or an hex, every three level. a magus gain an bonus feat, which is a totally different thing than an arcana or an hex, every 6 level. A magus can spend a feat, which is a totally different thing than an arcana or an hex, to gain an arcana. A magus can spend an arcana, which is a completely different thing than a feat or an hex, to gain the disruptive feat. With some archetype, a magus can spend an arcana, which is a completely different thing than a feat or an hex, to gain an hex. With some archetype, a magus can spend an hex, which is definitely a different thing than an arcana or a feat, to gain the brew potion feat.


And finally, add the last rule for a lot of fun:

The fifth rule of pathfinder's class design is: for the sake of simplicity, there isn't any comprehensive list of Stuff or Other Stuff (except if Stuff=feat, or if Other Stuff=feat).

Hilarity ensue.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Is it weird you explained that really well, but it's still incredibly difficult to understand?

Fucking pathfinder.

[GâtFromKI]

What good ideas are you even talking about?

Sorcerer's bloodline; they reinforce a caster, but allow some customisation and add some flavor. Recently, the dimensional dervish chain. Prehensible hair. The create pit spell chain.

All of the above is caster only, but err... I abandoned the idea to play non-caster long ago. Actually, each 2/3 spellcaster class of Pathfinder has good versatility and some good ability; eg spell combat allows for some very fun combos (more than quicken). You could ignore 66% of the rules and play only with 2/3 spellcasters.

I also prefer the idea of archetype over PrC: archetypes allow to play the character's concept from level 1. The implementation of archetype is often awful, but the idea is good.

Anyway, I'm saying that ideas are good; the implementation is often awful, probably partly because of SKR "if something is cool, it has to be either useless, either casters-only".


And I know that there is imbalance from day 1. I know the diviner nonsense, "Ambush! Roll for surprise and initiative! - I'm surprised; anyway I act first and kill everyone. - Ah err OK." But, baring some nonsense like the diviner, core Pathfinder isn't more imbalanced than core 3.5.

[Psychic Robot]

Sorcerers can spam quickened DC 34 stinking clouds from every level 3 or above slot they have (add rods of persist for fun) and that isn't even abusive. You get that from burning three feats total and not thinking "wouldn't flesh to stone be better and less likely to be resisted?"

can you go into detail on this one. I can see how your DCs can become obscenely high with spell perfection but I'm not seeing how you can do it with only three feats

[tzor]

Although the first rule of the den is you do not talk about the den, ...

There is? I don't talk about the den, but I don't recall it being a "rule."

[rasmuswagner]

What good ideas are you even talking about?

Sorcerer's bloodline; they reinforce a caster, but allow some customisation and add some flavor. Recently, the dimensional dervish chain. Prehensible hair. The create pit spell chain.

Can you sketch a build where the dimensional dervish feats are useful? Cause they look super cool at first glance, but really crap at second.

Prehensile hair is really badly implemented. So are the "create pit" spells.

[GâtFromKI]

I said the ideas are good, but the implementation is often crap. I think we agree. Anyway:

Can you sketch a build where the dimensional dervish feats are useful? Cause they look super cool at first glance, but really crap at second.

You can probably do something with a summoner, synthesist (the synthesist, huh... "wear" his eidolon); you start the chain at 7th and dervish at 11th with 5 natural attacks. The main difficulty is to understand how the synthesist works, since the author himself didn't understood what he was writing (*).

Or if you play with NPC classes, commoner 6/horizon walker 3/commoner 4; you starts the chain at 9th, dervish at 13th, and you're better than a monk.


(*) Yeah, me too, I don't always understand what I'm writing in English.

[Koumei]

Although the first rule of the den is you do not talk about the den, ...

There is? I don't talk about the den, but I don't recall it being a "rule."

It's not really a rule, but generally when people get linked here... do you remember the February (IIRC) flood of trolls?

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Sorcerers can spam quickened DC 34 stinking clouds from every level 3 or above slot they have (add rods of persist for fun) and that isn't even abusive. You get that from burning three feats total and not thinking "wouldn't flesh to stone be better and less likely to be resisted?"

can you go into detail on this one. I can see how your DCs can become obscenely high with spell perfection but I'm not seeing how you can do it with only three feats

It's easy and doesn't even use any age bullshit. I was wrong though, you use fourth level slots instead of third.

Base stat after 18 from PB, +2 race, +5 inherent, +5 level up, +6 item = 36 cha for base 23 DCs. Stinking Cloud is level 3, so DC 26

Add spell focus and greater spell focus. DC 28. Add spell perfection, DC 30 (doubles feats and such, gives free metamagic if modified level doesn't go beyond 9). Add the sorc class feature of +2 to all spells of a certain school for DC 32.

Oh, my bad. You need another feat, Focus Spell. Add focus spell (you add quicken for free so why not) and you bump the DC up to 33 due to your bloodline arcana. The DC goes up an additional 2 for whoever you're focusing on, so DC 35 for one target. They're also rolling twice because you obviously have dozens of dirt cheap Lesser Rods of Persistent Spell; so every time you cast a quickened, focused stinking cloud it is also persistent.

I picked stinking cloud because nothing resists it for some reason, as it is not officially a poison effect. They may have done some unofficial errata though.

All your lower level slots go towards casting Wish for free because you've been doing that since level 16 since you got a staff that casts wish and a robe of arcane heritage. Either that or DC 32 persistent, quickened, stinking clouds. You should just have sacks filled to the brim with lesser rods of persistent spell.

Edit: Wow, my bad. The DC should be one higher...