What is it about "Low Magic?"

[RandomCasualty]

1186191247[/unixtime]]I think that if we all combined our brain-power together, we can make a d20 system that allows characters to still kick ass without magic equipment. However, Iron Heroes does an excellent job of this.

Well, it's not that hard. And here's a simple system.

All bonus items (Ability score bonuses, attack/damage bonuses, armor bonuses, natural armor, deflection, etc) can be purchased with virtual gold. You get virtual gold equal to the normal allowable wealth to your character and whenever you level you get to spend your virtual gold on bonuses. But it's not items, it's just innate bonuses to your character.

The only other magic items that matter are stuff that lets you beat forcecages and other battlefield control. One idea would be to incorporate some feats or class abilities (like RoW does) to help beat battlefield control, another would be to simply nerf battlefield control to compensate.

[Voss]

Real gold or 'virtual gold', it still sucks the heroism out of the genre.
Plus, you'll have to work out some justification... it lends itself a little too well to arcade game style 'power up gems'

[JonSetanta]

1186090641[/unixtime]]
as a descendant of the people who actually did all this stuff, I feel offended.

HAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA

Historical accuracy? In D&D?
You jest, Shirley.

I almost felt that way in how WOTC presents both Gaelic legends and Fey, but instead of chosing to become temperamental and "offended" I wrote my own guide to Fey.
There, I inserted subjects such as Tuatha de Danaan and the original Fomorians (not deformed retards, retard) as I saw fit.
I even put in the Sidhe, and adapted many MM races to fit the Fey-dominant setting.

My ancestors will be proud.

Don't get angry shirak, get even. Or maybe it's due to my genetics as a generally unemotional/autistic Northern European (Norwegian, English/Lowland Scottish but oddly also Southern Irish) that I don't react hotheadedly to much, if anything at all, much unlike many uh... more.... Mediterranean people I've met over the years.

I prefer high magic, actually. I like the wicked monstrosities and the myriad goodies to gather, but balance issues do indeed spoil the game.
Many items and spells simply should not exist but yet still do, and that just spells obstinancy on the part of Wizards designers, in the face of overwhelming evidence against said aspects of D&D.

[Captain_Bleach]

1186207029[/unixtime]]

1186090641[/unixtime]]
as a descendant of the people who actually did all this stuff, I feel offended.

HAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA

Historical accuracy? In D&D?
You jest, Shirley.

I almost felt that way in how WOTC presents both Gaelic legends and Fey, but instead of chosing to become temperamental and "offended" I wrote my own guide to Fey.
There, I inserted subjects such as Tuatha de Danaan and the original Fomorians (not deformed retards, retard) as I saw fit.
I even put in the Sidhe, and adapted many MM races to fit the Fey-dominant setting.

My ancestors will be proud.

Don't get angry shirak, get even. Or maybe it's due to my genetics as a generally unemotional/autistic Northern European (Norwegian, English/Lowland Scottish but oddly also Southern Irish) that I don't react hotheadedly to much, if anything at all, much unlike many uh... more.... Mediterranean people I've met over the years.

I prefer high magic, actually. I like the wicked monstrosities and the myriad goodies to gather, but balance issues do indeed spoil the game.
Many items and spells simply should not exist but yet still do, and that just spells obstinancy on the part of Wizards designers, in the face of overwhelming evidence against said aspects of D&D.

I would like to see your guide to Fey. In addition, I would like to know your opinion on what spells should not exist.

[Username17]

Well, it's not that hard.

I disagree. I think it's very hard, but I also think we can do it. A Fighter out of the PHB can't pull his weight against a Legendary Snake or a Bloodfiend Locust Swarm even if he has level appropriate gear for an eighth level character. The Snake has numbers that are just too high, and the Bloodfiend Locust Swarm are just... yeah.

Furthermore, that 8th level equipment is highly variable in total efficacy. It could be 27k worth of a lousy fvcking +3 sword and shield or it could be a vast collection of Amber Amulets of Alliteratively Anguishing Adjudicators. Either way: fvck that.

---

What is needed is a whole new set of classes that can actually stand up to the monsters. Like the Iron Heroes classes except actually doing their fvcking job and being able to actually fight level appropriate opposition. The core problem with the Iron Heroes set is that there are enough bad design choices that the characters can't really fight printed monsters. And they beat the tar out of PHB non-casters. So they don't really have any opponents at all save for larger and larger piles of hobgoblin warriors - which is pretty much what the Ranger out of the PHB offered anyway.

In short: it's not enough to just handwave in equipment-like bonuses and abilities for the Fighters according to some sort of schedule assigned by the DMG - we already know that's not enough. We have to take a step back and then another and another until we can see the big picture. The whole big picture. And it's ugly.

---

You're in a low magic campaign, so your Beacon of Hope is going to go from 1st level to 10th level without ever necessarily getting a magic sword or an efreeti bottle or any of that crap. He'll never see the Wish economy and whatever gold he gets will go to ale and whores as soon as he replenishes his stock of arrows and iron rations for the next adventure.

At first level he's icing goblins left right and center, he fights a shadow asp and he might be able to land a blow in time to drive off a Shadow Asp.

At second level the fact that carries a shield keeps him in good against the Death Dog, but the Rat Swarm?

At third level, the Shadow? The Rust Monster? The Howler?

---

To fit on this scale he needs a redesign. All the classes need a redesign. Just as the monsters are awesome for no reason so too should the player characters.

I've got an idea germinating in my head, but I don't think it's finished yet. I did less than three thousand words on it today.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1186208910[/unixtime]]
All the classes need a redesign. Just as the monsters are awesome for no reason so too should the player characters.

Well, kind of, but not exactly.

In low magic, the heroes typically aren't superhuman. I mean there are rare occasions, like Hercules and such, but most of the time, you're talking about fairly mundane, though highly skilled, humans.

I think it sort of loses the whole feel of low magic if the heroes turn into superheroes, as part of the basic idea is that people aren't leaping tall buildings in a single bound, because it's low magic.

The thing is that it needs to work both ways. Just like some PC options aren't appropriate for low magic, some DM options aren't appropriate either. Incorporeal undead for instance should probably be left as puzzle monsters. Similarly, you've got to be careful about throwing in anything that uses extensive magic.

Really most stuff is okay, so long as the heroes have decent save bonuses. Battlefield control is what you've got to worry about, and few monsters have that. Dragons in low magic probably shouldn't be casting spells at all, they just fly around with a breath weapon, and that makes them pretty dangerous in their own right.

Usually in low magic, creatures are going to have one defining threat power (like a medusa's gaze, or a hydra's head regenerating ability) and the rest is just brute strength. Things that rely on trickery, like leprechauns and illusionists and stuff, are going to probably be puzzle monsters and need to be treated as such.

[virgil]

I'm not certain that the decision that IH characters can't fight core monsters is an accurate one. I've run an IH campaign, and they most assuredly held their own against various monsters...trolls, ogres, death knights, rakshasas, arrow demons, medusa, ghosts, mini-beholder (in the MM, looks like one, but different eye beams), hydras, night hag, vrocks, red slaad, wyverns, nalfeshnee, succubi, bebiliths, fiendish frost giants, opposing spellcasters...and all have been roughly equivalent challenges for their CR.

Because there are a couple monsters in the MM that they can't properly fight (such as swarms), does not mean the entire system is completely without foundation. Hell, I doubt a normal D&D party could handle a roughly similar number of monsters because of their broken combos (immortal illithids, for instance)

[virgil]

Upon further thought, no matter what we do, any attempt create a variant in D&D will be inherently flawed and be unpalpable to you; because the core system is fundamentally broken on almost every level.

Your solutions involve actions about as drastic as anything we propose, if not moreso. I acknowledge that IH can't handle some of the core monsters, but I consider that list to be short and the remaining to be more than sufficient to sate a party's bloodlust. Yes, I have to ignore some material, but I already have to tweak two or three classes; and the sum total house rule list on IH is shorter than anything for regular D&D, and ultimately more stable (in my experience).

[shirak]

Bigode: Thebes at the time was just a city-state. It had about as much impact on the scene as Greece has on the modern world. It was just there. For Thebes to gain power, first Hellas must go through the Pelloponesian Wars that will see Sparta diminished and Athens basically gone (the city was sacked). Even then, it took two genius generals to really get Thebes started and they had to undo all their work to do it (Thebes came in power because of their infantry but the one advantage they had as a city was their awesome horses. They were completely ignored). I think of the rise of Thebes as more of a tribute to the awesomeness of those two generals than any inherent worth of the city.

Sigma: I'd like to see your Fey too. As you implied, I am a hot-blooded Mediterranean guy aka Greek Lover. So don't expect me to sit down and correct the situation while I'm busy bitching

Frank: Once again you clearly and consicely state what I merely implied. Can I pay you to (re)write my thesis?

1186215379[/unixtime]]Well, kind of, but not exactly.

In low magic, the heroes typically aren't superhuman. I mean there are rare occasions, like Hercules and such, but most of the time, you're talking about fairly mundane, though highly skilled, humans.

Every hero in Ancient Hellas was the descendant of a god. Every. Single. One. The classic example of "heroic mortal", Odysseus, had the goddess Athena on speed-dial (almost as bad as Elminster and Mystra though without the orgies). He was a king, a philosopher, a diplomat, a warrior. he personally kills at least 40+ named opponents, many in cold blood (the massacre at the end of Odysseia). IIRC, he wrestles/outfights a god at some point (Ares, i think). Odysseus was at the low end of power in Iliad, compared to Achiles who was literally invulnerable (except for his heels).

How do you figure mundanity?

1186215379[/unixtime]]I think it sort of loses the whole feel of low magic if the heroes turn into superheroes, as part of the basic idea is that people aren't leaping tall buildings in a single bound, because it's low magic.

The thing is that it needs to work both ways. Just like some PC options aren't appropriate for low magic, some DM options aren't appropriate either. Incorporeal undead for instance should probably be left as puzzle monsters. Similarly, you've got to be careful about throwing in anything that uses extensive magic.

You seem confused about the low-magic genre. Most of yur complains are about genre. How about running three times around the city walls of Troy? How about raising the dead? I think we need to step back and define "low magic" because we seem to be talking about different things.

To me, low magic is Mythic Hellas. Lots of supernatural stuff, very little of it directly usable by the players. People in the Iliad get to call gods on their cellphone and have them answer. But they don't get to kill enemies without actually putting their life on the line. The only guy with a blast power around was Zeus. Everybody else either fought with a sword or fucked up the world to hit one guy (hello Poseidon). So magic happens, magic big and powerful even by D&D standards. But it's all story effects. Sometimes the gods like you, sometimes they don't, but either way you need to get off your ass and actually do things because nothing will happen by magic.

1186215379[/unixtime]]Really most stuff is okay, so long as the heroes have decent save bonuses. Battlefield control is what you've got to worry about, and few monsters have that. Dragons in low magic probably shouldn't be casting spells at all, they just fly around with a breath weapon, and that makes them pretty dangerous in their own right.

Usually in low magic, creatures are going to have one defining threat power (like a medusa's gaze, or a hydra's head regenerating ability) and the rest is just brute strength. Things that rely on trickery, like leprechauns and illusionists and stuff, are going to probably be puzzle monsters and need to be treated as such.

I pretty much agree with this. However, in a low magic world we need to get rid of the everything-and-the-kitchen-sink approach of the MM. Either we have dark gods, incomprehensible and alien, who sent their servants to the world or we have gods who are like normal adventurers turned to eleven. You can't have Illithids and Pelor on the same campaign world without stretching it.

[Username17]

In low magic, the heroes typically aren't superhuman.

I'm just going to scratch my head on that one. I can't think of any heroes that aren't super human. Lü Bu can break armies with his shout and cleave stone with his halberd; Gudrun was able to fly after she killed her sons and fed them to her husband; Cai Hir was able to grow to giant size in order to fight Wrnach the giant; Sundjata can conjure ghost lions and steal peoples' magic with black arrows that he makes himself; Cu Chulainn is protected by an aura of fire; and of course Enmerkar can breathe water, walk on walls, and reign as king for 420 years.

That's what makes heroes, well, heroic. Not just a desire to fight a dragon that is individually capable of destroying armies of men - but also the ability to actually do so and win. And in almost all cases that corresponds to having some kind of special powers.

-------

Numerically, D&D chaarcters need:

• Skill checks high enough that sneaky people can sneak past enemies without cloaks of Elven Kind (+12 Spot on a CR 8 Stone Giant).
  
  
• Damage output that will make a monster give a damn (119 hp on that CR 8 Stone Giant).
  
  
• Defenses that scale up the attacks that you see at high level. Especially saving throws, but also Spell Resistance.
  
  
• Abilities that will allow them to beat the game ending battlefield control abilities that some monsters have.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1186248498[/unixtime]]

I'm just going to scratch my head on that one. I can't think of any heroes that aren't super human. Lü Bu can break armies with his shout and cleave stone with his halberd; Gudrun was able to fly after she killed her sons and fed them to her husband; Cai Hir was able to grow to giant size in order to fight Wrnach the giant; Sundjata can conjure ghost lions and steal peoples' magic with black arrows that he makes himself; Cu Chulainn is protected by an aura of fire; and of course Enmerkar can breathe water, walk on walls, and reign as king for 420 years.

That's what makes heroes, well, heroic. Not just a desire to fight a dragon that is individually capable of destroying armies of men - but also the ability to actually do so and win. And in almost all cases that corresponds to having some kind of special powers.

Well, I suppose I use Conan, Aragorn, King Arthur and some of the greek heroes (excluding Hercules to some degree) as my basis for a low magic hero. In most cases, these are just pretty normal warriors.

I tend to classify a lot of the characters you cited as more mythic than low magic. Mythic is sort of a whole new level which is actually a disguised version of high magic, only instead of actually having a bunch of magic items, the magic tends to be within the characters themselves.

Generally though, when you talk about running a mythic campaign, you're talking about something different than a low magic game, at least in my opinion. Mythic powered characters can probably travel side by side with D&D wizards and be okay, because they've got superhuman abilities. While there's an apparent similarity between low magic fantasy and mythic fantasy in that neither is saturated with magical items, mythic fantasy exists on a whole new power level.

Mythic is in fact the hardest to replicate, because there aren't really rules to mythic characters. They just sorta do stuff when the plot suits it. And sometimes Paul Bunyan is 50 feet tall and sometimes he's 500. Mythic abilities are more like Superman flying around the earth to turn back time. You'll see them used once and then never used again. And from a rules standpoint you can't really write a system for that easily.

Pretty much I'm more worried about replicating characters from fantasy novels and movies rather than those of mythic proportions. 'Low Magic' generally means almost any fantasy novel warrior or rogue type. Heck, you can even apply that to some fantasy types from Forgotten Realms novels. Drizz't, as he's portrayed in most novels, is a fairly low magic character, as is Cyric in the Avatars trilogy (prior to becoming a god that is).

[Desdan_Mervolam]

You do remember that Aragorn had an UNDEAD ARMY at his command, right? The fact that he didn't pull it out until late in the game is fairly irrelevant, he still had it.

And that's not including his artifact sword either.

-Desdan

[Manxome]

To be fair, most kings have armies, and they control them because of their political position, not because of any personal awesomeness. The fact that Aragorn had that army, and that it was undead, both had nothing to do with Aragorn's personal capabilities, which makes that very different from talking about a necromancer who has an undead army at his command.

Aragorn did have extraordinary healing powers, extended life, and other unspecified awesomeness from his bloodline, though. In addition to being highly skilled.

Still, I think it's entirely practical to distinguish heroes from ordinary people by them just being really good at what they do, without bringing in overtly supernatural stuff, if you so desire. Simply being faster, stronger, and better-trained than everyone you fight goes a long way. But it's not necessarily as fun as telling the laws of reality to shut up and sit down.

[PhoneLobster]

And as a one off pop at that also, when Arthur got depressed over his cheatin' spouse the whole land crumbled into ruin.

Not to mention his artifact sword either.

[Captain_Bleach]

1186279771[/unixtime]]
Still, I think it's entirely practical to distinguish heroes from ordinary people by them just being really good at what they do, without bringing in overtly supernatural stuff, if you so desire. Simply being faster, stronger, and better-trained than everyone you fight goes a long way. But it's not necessarily as fun as telling the laws of reality to shut up and sit down.

That's the thing: When you have a mixed party of full casters, partial casters, and non casters, the full casters at high levels are going to have the most fun and have the most power. A tank can only do so much as whittle down the monster's hit points.
Parties of all stripes are reliant upon spell casters to a lesser or greater extent, whether they be NPC healers or PC "blaster casters."

[Voss]

1186215379[/unixtime]]. Battlefield control is what you've got to worry about, and few monsters have that. Dragons in low magic probably shouldn't be casting spells at all, they just fly around with a breath weapon, and that makes them pretty dangerous in their own right.

Hmm. I actually consider this one of the major breaking points in the game. Without spellcasters or magic items, there really isn't anything the low magic heroes can do against the a flying dragon. Spells or not, just swooping about and breathing fire on people is an auto monster win scenario.

Ranged weapons simply don't work on a damage scale thats meaningful to mid to high CR creatures. Once again, the lack of scaling in feats and a lot of class abilities causes problems... fixable ones, but its a lot of work.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Well, usually in stories people track dragons back to their cavern lairs, where they lose most of their mobility to being enclosed.

I always figured that if you wanted to fight a dragon in the open, you'd wind up using light siege machinery, like ballista and such.

-Desdan

[JonSetanta]

Heh I've posted this bugger in 2 places so far, once in Wizards former "Homebrew" forum and the second in a Feybook discussion on invisionfree.

Thanks for asking! I have many views but few comments. Must get critique, both good and bad! Virulent, flaming critique drives me to do better the most.
Please spam me. Flame. Call the whole project gay. Anything.

Also think I have a slight lean towards Frank-style power boosting. There are many Fey feats in there that grant spell-like abilities at will, but none of them are save-or-dies. Mostly utility, self buffs, transportation, very limited shapeshifting, and creation.
The typical Fey 'charming' and 'illusion' stuff is in there, but progresses slowly.

Fey feats are probably the trickiest area to balance, as they are availible to any Fey.

"Fey by Sig" on Wizards:
[counturl=86]http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=897269[/counturl]

"Feybook" project I have joined, brand new, seeking to gather all the Fey fans that we can and compile a free Fey netbook PDF: [counturl=87]http://z11.invisionfree.com/Feybook/index.php?[/counturl]

My goal is to produce something ghetto and easy to read yet of quality, like Frank and K have spat out time and time again.

What's my main inspiration, some wonder? The driving insanity?
Brian Froud.
And the fact that WOTC yet still shafts us on Fey to this very day.

Well, time has come. Revenge! harharharrr


EDIT: Ah and I just realized that first part is majorly off topic.
My 2 dimes (inflation, ya know):
For better tanks and damage output, I'm pondering the application of such normally bland features as base Fortitude and Base Attack Bonus...

For instance, using the wonderful modular feats, make a feat that does one each for warriors:

1 - add Base Attack to damage for all weapons of either melee or ranged attacks.
then, another feat that does same for all weapons of a broad category such as Swords, Polearms, Clubs, Body, etc (with some crossover for mix-type items).
then, another feat that does same for all weapons of a specific damage type, out of S/B/P.
then, some way to add BAB as certain types of elemental energy damage coming out of the weapon.
then, some way to cause AURAS, THROW, and EXPLODE that energy with attack actions.
then, finally, some way to commit the Ultimate Move, which then Exhausts or deals some debilitating blow to the user (or other arbitrary limiting agent to prevent abuse)

2 - add base Fortitude value to Hardness (aka DR/adamantine), gain Hardness if not, and also possibly apply to all types of Energy/Elemental Resistance and more. maybe even use total Fortitude 'save' with CON mod and any other misc. bonuses to send it up to some sort of Dreaded Godlike Status.
other saving throws such as Reflex and Will can do similar, but Reflex should duplicate certain "time effects" from spells in some way (defensively) and eventually resembling Time Stop (cuz the warrior is moving so fast, time stops. durr.) and Will save will... uhh.. something. magical. no, pseudo-magical. and simple. and defensive.

3 - use skill ranks to provide other bonuses; compare to Tome of Battle and their 'maneuvers', one type using (abusing) Concentration checks to do many things.
Skills scale, skills get bonuses, so use skill checks like Jump or Climb as attack and/or damage, pseudo-Dispell effects against certain hindering magics, limited Spell Resistance, or methods of mimicking mid-level spell effects as Extraordinary abilities.
Oh, and all at-will, once or more per round.
Quite possibly as attack actions.

4 - provide more ways to increase previously mentioned bonus types #1 to #3 greatly, such as "add Strength bonus to Fortitude save" or "add Enhancement bonus of equipped weapon to ___ while wielded"
Warriors are usually all about their weapons. Some do unarmed but they are also slightly exotic and would have different (but equal) capabilities. Warriors waving spears and swords and axes at their enemies should do Godly Things to their foes, from both sides. THAT is what I want to see... D&D warriors of Dynasty Warrior proportions. Kaboom.. Musou rage.


Cuchulain was son of the god Lugh, btw. He raged and became some cyclops beast in a manner similar to many Dragonball Z encounters, or an Irishman after you bump into him and spill his pint.

[RandomCasualty]

1186279771[/unixtime]]To be fair, most kings have armies, and they control them because of their political position, not because of any personal awesomeness. The fact that Aragorn had that army, and that it was undead, both had nothing to do with Aragorn's personal capabilities, which makes that very different from talking about a necromancer who has an undead army at his command.

Yeah, Aragorn's army was more of a plot device adventure rather than a class ability.

Aragorn did have extraordinary healing powers, extended life, and other unspecified awesomeness from his bloodline, though. In addition to being highly skilled.

Well, his healing was decent... but not great. I mean he couldn't heal Frodo from the Nazgul weapons, and his healing wasn't described in that much detail if I recall correctly, so for all we know it may just be advanced uses of the 'heal' skill.

Still, I think it's entirely practical to distinguish heroes from ordinary people by them just being really good at what they do, without bringing in overtly supernatural stuff, if you so desire. Simply being faster, stronger, and better-trained than everyone you fight goes a long way. But it's not necessarily as fun as telling the laws of reality to shut up and sit down.

Well, generally if you want to screw with the laws of reality in profound ways, you're no longer playing 'low magic', you're into mythic or high magic settings, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's another genre entirely.

And as far as artifact swords, honestly we don't even know how powerful Excalibur or any other fantasy sword really was. I mean, just because a blade has a name, doesn't necessarily mean that it's all that awesome. In a low magic setting, it could just be a +1 sword. Seriously.

[angelfromanotherpin]

1186308458[/unixtime]]And as far as artifact swords, honestly we don't even know how powerful Excalibur or any other fantasy sword really was. I mean, just because a blade has a name, doesn't necessarily mean that it's all that awesome. In a low magic setting, it could just be a +1 sword. Seriously.

Excalibur, like much of the Arthurian mythos, does not exist in a single form, but it is attributed with a wide variety of powers, some of which are way out there.

• When drawn it burns like 30 torches, and blinds enemies who look upon it.
• It made rainbow trails when swung and could 'slice the tops off hills.'
• There's a tale where it's made from the leftovers of Mjolnir and has lightning-powers.
• As well as the popularized 'cut through anything. Yes, anything.'

This is not a sword +1.

[JonSetanta]

Excalibur was also an inherently [Good] item, limiting the diversity of those using it.
Sorta puts a dampener on greedy, violent powergamers.

[shirak]

Sigma999: I've glanced through your system. My impressions so far.

• Way too much randomness. What is it with all those 5d6 rolls?
  
• Needlessly complex rules. Who cares what happens to Sprites? One of them awakening is a plot hook, all the players need to know is "Yay, a Sprite awoke, we need to protect the new guy from those Unseelie bastards!" Keep It Simple, Stupid!
  
• Your Fey Feats are really weird. One of them, Noble, is Leadership plus candy. The spell-like ones suck. You need to invest 6 of your feats to get Teleport? Sure, you get a lot of bonus feats (11 in 10 levels) but still, this sucks. Go read the Tome of Fiends.
  
• In Elements of nature, Fire is sucky beyond belief. I mean, you compare Earthglide and Fly 100' with 1d4 damage? WTF?!
  
• Btw, you never seem to lose Globe of Light so you already have an incorporeal form with 100' perfect flight speed. Yeah, good luck with that.

In short, this needs serious reworking.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

In low magic, the heroes typically aren't superhuman. I mean there are rare occasions, like Hercules and such, but most of the time, you're talking about fairly mundane, though highly skilled, humans.

Then skills themselves have to do something. And they have to do badass things by just sitting there on your character sheet. You should able to use suggestion and calm emotions and crap with a Bluff check. You should be able to use detect thoughts with a Sense Motive check. You should be able to use a Tumble check to avoid not just arrows but spells and breath weapons. You should be able to bitchslap down a force wall or arcane lock with a Spellcraft check, find a secret chest with a Search check. That kind of stuff. Yeah, I know some of these are epic uses already, but, God, man why?!

Hell, we all know why the fighter loses to the dragon: the dragon flies and breathes fire while the fighter has the Cleave and Power Attack feats and the dragon just doesn't fvcking care. That means the fighter's gotta either A) fly, or B) be immune to breath weapons. I want the dragon to breathe fire and the fighter to chop that flame breath in fvcking half with his sword so the dragon's gotta come down and face him.

And until my fighter--my core rules fighter--can do that, I'm just not gonna be happy.

[RandomCasualty]

1186312201[/unixtime]]
Excalibur, like much of the Arthurian mythos, does not exist in a single form, but it is attributed with a wide variety of powers, some of which are way out there.

• When drawn it burns like 30 torches, and blinds enemies who look upon it.
• It made rainbow trails when swung and could 'slice the tops off hills.'
• There's a tale where it's made from the leftovers of Mjolnir and has lightning-powers.
• As well as the popularized 'cut through anything. Yes, anything.'

This is not a sword +1.

Well, that's the point. Myths like that don't exist in one single form. It's like Paul Bunyan who might be 50 feet tall or 500, depending on who you ask. And that means that Excalibur is just as good as you want it to be.

It can be anywhere from an epic artifact to a +1 sword.

[RandomCasualty]

1186327246[/unixtime]]
Then skills themselves have to do something. And they have to do badass things by just sitting there on your character sheet. You should able to use suggestion and calm emotions and crap with a Bluff check. You should be able to use detect thoughts with a Sense Motive check. You should be able to use a Tumble check to avoid not just arrows but spells and breath weapons. You should be able to bitchslap down a force wall or arcane lock with a Spellcraft check, find a secret chest with a Search check. That kind of stuff. Yeah, I know some of these are epic uses already, but, God, man why?!

Well, not necessarily. Remember that we're talking about low magic here, and that means that our low magic characters tend to play out like fantasy novel characters. So skills inherently shouldn't be doing anything that people aren't doing in fantasy novels.

Hell, we all know why the fighter loses to the dragon: the dragon flies and breathes fire while the fighter has the Cleave and Power Attack feats and the dragon just doesn't fvcking care. That means the fighter's gotta either A) fly, or B) be immune to breath weapons. I want the dragon to breathe fire and the fighter to chop that flame breath in fvcking half with his sword so the dragon's gotta come down and face him.

Well, not really. I mean, you can just use a bow when it takes flight.

What it does mean is that a low magic fighter has to be able to do a bunch of combat styles, something that right now, the core fighter fails at completely.