Constructing a D&D cartoon.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat May 28, 2011 2:48 pm

A lycanthrope wizard of any kind is a tremendous waste of potential. And I am of course talking about the potential of exposition. Expositional opportunity should be your #1 design by-word, because it's ultimately the major limit on what stories you can tell. This isn't the 80s, and people won't accept a narrator explaining to the viewers what an ogre is. You have to work that exposition into the show somehow. And that means you need characters who are believably ignorant.

The Drow character is perfect for this, regardless of class. Because the Drow can ask "what is this that you surface worlders are doing" about anything. This allows the show to give as much exposition as required for any culturally important thing that you need. Surface religions, major holidays, adjacent kingdoms, whatever.

But the value of a character who has only recently become an adventurer is very large in the same way. A true greenhorn character can ask about fucking anything and have that not be out of character. So the other characters can tell "the kid" (and by extension the audience) about stuff that "everyone knows" and it won't be too jarring. But greenhorns are annoying and strain disbelief. You have to come up with a reason that the other characters don't just leave the apprentice somewhere and not come back. You have to have a reason for the character to be pulling their weight so that the viewers don't feel that the greenhorn is wasting screen time by being alive. And that's why a Vampire or Lycanthrope is so valuable. It allows some village kid at the beginning of the show to be forced to join the rest of the team and spontaneously have a bunch of power that lets them pull their weight sometimes while still being fundamentally ignorant enough to slip exposition dumps into the narrative.

That being said, if you were going to go the combat hybrid form lycanthrope route, I would have that be a guy. If you were going the stealth form or the Vampire route, I'd go with a girl. Not because I am a sexist douche, but because men can be "pretty" while still having a big shaggy animal head and women can't. I'll call this the "Panthro/Cheetara Effect". I've thought about it a lot, and people are just a lot more accepting of Chip and Dale than they would be of a female rodent who didn't look basically like a human. At first I thought it was just a bizarre double standard, but I realized it's actually a sensible double standard.

See: men and women have a lot of different ways to be pretty. There are women who are sexy because they are curvy and there are women who are sexy because they are slender. And for men, one of the available ways to be sexy and masculine is to have a giant beard. As in: you can have almost your entire face be covered in thick animal hair and still be a sexy man. So in a fantasy world, you can have sexy ladies with horns or cat ears sticking out of the top of their head, but they still need a human face. Men can be sexy and still have a wolf head.

But the bottom line is that if you include a character whose race is a powerup template, you're including it because you want to have an excuse for a character to be the "brand new kid" archetype without having them be the team's "dead weight" member. You would be wasting all that potential if you made them a Wizard, because then they'd be expected to know shit.

-Username17

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sat May 28, 2011 3:00 pm

D&D does provide the potential for a mage who isn't wise - a Sorceror. If you wanted the mage and the clueless to be the same person, that's what I'd go for.

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Sat May 28, 2011 3:06 pm

Sorcerer would have been my first thought, too.

I'm guessing the idea of a Wizard who has only studied magic, and/or has no idea what life is like outside the local Wizard's Tower/College/Something, is out of the question? Such a person would definitely need to ask questions.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat May 28, 2011 3:07 pm

Red_Rob wrote:D&D does provide the potential for a mage who isn't wise - a Sorceror. If you wanted the mage and the clueless to be the same person, that's what I'd go for.

Sorcerer + Magic Template Race is a bad combination though. Because how would the viewers ever figure out whether some action was "because they were a sorcerer" or "because they are a vampire"? It would be an impenetrable wall of noise with no signal and nothing for the viewers to grasp hold of.

If you're going to throw in a vampire or werebear, they need to be a Fighter or Rogue. So that when they do their big mystic shit, it is clearly labeled as being Ravenloft powers and not class features. Similarly, you'd never have Cyborg learn sorcery or have Starfire get nanite upgrades. Characters need exactly one source of phlebtonium to explain their core abilities. Otherwise shit gets way too weird.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat May 28, 2011 3:21 pm

I think you're relying a bit too much on the 'character asks an awkward question' way of providing exposition. Seriously, it becomes really obvious after a few times. There are ways to provide it other than having holes in peoples' knowledge. Just off of the top of my head:

[*] You have a smarty-pants character who can't help but talk about their knowledge.
[*] One of the characters makes a comment that provokes people. The characters throw back exposition in the form of an argument; 'hmmph, some festival, celebrating the massacre of a bunch of goblinoids' 'the death of that war criminal Torax is reason enough to celebrate' 'he's only like that because you elves broke multiple treaties', etc. etc.
[*] Exposition in the disguise of snark or a complaint (do you elves HAVE to waste so much water, that stuff's precious in the desert)

etc..

FrankTrollman wrote:You would be wasting all that potential if you made them a Wizard, because then they'd be expected to know shit.

Err, why? The know-everything wizard is a stupid D&D-specific trope that solely exists because of a quirk in the mechanics. I'd say that the archetype of a wizard (or Absent-Minded Professor or Ivory Tower Intellectual) that doesn't know much outside of their books and is out-of-touch with what's going on is stronger.

Of course the archetype in of itself is kind of pathetic/silly so there would need to be a reason to explain why the wizard doesn't know who the current king is other than 'wizard is a self-centered douche' or 'wizard doesn't know how to tie own shoelaces'. If the character was the apprentice/servant of some abusive wizard who kept them in the attic (and got away with it because they're a vampire/wererat/robot) it'd provide a sympathetic excuse.

Sorcerer + Magic Template Race is a bad combination though. Because how would the viewers ever figure out whether some action was "because they were a sorcerer" or "because they are a vampire"? It would be an impenetrable wall of noise with no signal and nothing for the viewers to grasp hold of.

Well, yeah, that's why I recommended were-some disliked animal. If you make it pretty clear that being a mongrelfolk or a gully dwarf or a wererat or whatever doesn't provide you with any real concrete advantages there wouldn't be confusion. Which is why you can't have a rockstar race like a half-dragon or vampire or werewolf that actually gets real superpowers. You'd of course have to do the Leela thing of 'prettiest sewer mutant' however.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:38 pm

Exposition doesn't just have to come in the form of asking a question and having some other character give an info dump. That is true. But it still only comes in two basic forms. You can have information flow from a character in the show or you can have information flow to a character in the show. And the naive character is a golden opportunity for information to flow to. They don't have to be always asking stupid questions and getting patronizing answers. They can go watch the local cultural festival because they've never seen one before, or go read a damn book (out loud because it's a cartoon). Or any of a number of conceits. The point is that a character discovering a fact in the narrative is a very good way to get that same fact over to the viewers, and there is no purpose served in cutting yourself off from such an opportunity.

Remember: the Drow character can be expository and/or demonstrative about all th shit going on in the underdark whenever. But for surface stuff they can scout and research and ask questions and in general be the surrogate for the audience when having events explicated. Having a single character be the audience's surrogate in exploring the fantasy world is an effective trope, but it is antithetical to the ensemble cast notion. You want different characters to exposit about different stuff and to seek out and find information about different stuff. Having a character who is right out of a millet farming village with brand new powers is ideal, because they can go acquire basic information about how abilities work in the world on camera.

The more I think about it, the more I like the Vampire village girl. You can do a Lucy thing where she gets turned into a vampire by one of the big bads in the first episode but doesn't get dominated because of a plot device. This allows you to have her be an information conduit both to her of adventuring basics that the audience needs to know but the other protagonists already do - and from her as she gets periodic dream visions about whatever the bad guys are doing.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat May 28, 2011 9:10 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:A true greenhorn character can ask about fucking anything

Wererat: "Can I fuck that?"
Paladin: "...no."
Wr: "What about that?"
P: "No."
Wr: "That?"
P: "No!"
Wr: "Ooh! What about that? Can I fuck that?"
P: "*sputters* It's on fire!"
Wr: "So? It looks warm. Can I fuck it?"
P" "...sure, knock yourself out."
Wr: *humphumphumphump*
Dwarf: "So um, how are we supposed to kill the fire elemental with Ani humping it?"
P: "Um, looks like she's using daggers..."
D: "...remind me to lock my room at night?"
P: "Remind me to stay in another inn..."

That being said, if you were going to go the combat hybrid form lycanthrope route, I would have that be a guy. If you were going the stealth form or the Vampire route, I'd go with a girl. Not because I am a sexist douche, but because men can be "pretty" while still having a big shaggy animal head and women can't. I'll call this the "Panthro/Cheetara Effect". I've thought about it a lot, and people are just a lot more accepting of Chip and Dale than they would be of a female rodent who didn't look basically like a human. At first I thought it was just a bizarre double standard, but I realized it's actually a sensible double standard.

See: men and women have a lot of different ways to be pretty. There are women who are sexy because they are curvy and there are women who are sexy because they are slender. And for men, one of the available ways to be sexy and masculine is to have a giant beard. As in: you can have almost your entire face be covered in thick animal hair and still be a sexy man. So in a fantasy world, you can have sexy ladies with horns or cat ears sticking out of the top of their head, but they still need a human face. Men can be sexy and still have a wolf head.

I'm not sure I agree, but then I think the board is vaguely aware that I'm a dirty gender bending furry, so take it as you will...

Lago wrote:Err, why? The know-everything wizard is a stupid D&D-specific trope that solely exists because of a quirk in the mechanics. I'd say that the archetype of a wizard (or Absent-Minded Professor or Ivory Tower Intellectual) that doesn't know much outside of their books and is out-of-touch with what's going on is stronger.

Actually, it might be mildly amusing to have the wizard full of knowledge, but just have it be out of date. So he thinks Orcs are still intensely militaristic LE soldiers of Gruumsh, and is surprised to see them living in huts that are little more than a few rocks stacked together and gnawing on whatever they can catch, which is mostly rocks and slow children.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun May 29, 2011 3:33 am

FrankTrollman wrote: The more I think about it, the more I like the Vampire village girl. You can do a Lucy thing where she gets turned into a vampire by one of the big bads in the first episode but doesn't get dominated because of a plot device. This allows you to have her be an information conduit both to her of adventuring basics that the audience needs to know but the other protagonists already do - and from her as she gets periodic dream visions about whatever the bad guys are doing.

Vampire Girl has three problems associated with it.

1) Vampires are all about angst. Every vampire except for maybe Hellsing's Alucard angsts to some extent; it's just what they do and to a certain extent it's expected because being a vampire sucks. The problem is that there are critters worse off than a vampire in D&D and they're fairly common. Goblins are tiny, live for a fraction of even human lives, come with an intelligence penalty, and live in filth. And they're still better off than Kuo-Toa or Mongrelfolk. Vampire angst thus comes off as whiny, meaning that you lose the major appeal of these characters--beautifully tortured suffering.

2) The vampire powers are pretty useless on a wizard. The mind-control powers/social engineering? We already have an assassin and wizards get that anyway. The shapeshifting/animal control? We already have a druid. The enhanced vampire physical attributes? The fuck is a squishy wizard going to do with that? Now while it's fine, more than fine even, to have a race that doesn't give any concrete advantages (like human or goblin) if you're giving concrete advantages that only exist 'just because' the character comes off as a Mary Sue where they get combo platter powers for no narrative-enhancing reason.

3) The vampire weaknesses are pretty hard to get around believably. Fiction varies, but almost every vampire has had their social life crippled by two major things: sunlight and the thirst for human blood. In a vampire-centered story this isn't a big deal because all that does is just change the scenary, but when they're involved with non-vampires it means that they have to work around the vampire's limitations. Which while drama-preserving a couple of times, will derail the plot pretty quickly.

You're thus forced to come up with a handwave or a solution as to why the party members don't worry about the wizard flipping out and drinking their blood while they're traipsing in the woods without a thing to eat for the past few days or why they can go have a showdown at high noon. Good fucking luck with this, the last time someone 'solved' this we got sparkling Mary Suepires.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun May 29, 2011 3:41 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:because being a vampire sucks.

No, I'm sorry, I don't see it. You're immortal, super strong, fast, can probably change shape and dominate the mind, etc etc.

What's so bad about being a vampire?

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sun May 29, 2011 3:44 am

Prak_Anima wrote:
Lago PARANOIA wrote:because being a vampire sucks.
No, I'm sorry, I don't see it. You're immortal, super strong, fast, can probably change shape and dominate the mind, etc etc.

What's so bad about being a vampire?

Thirst for human blood, sunlight, not much social contact...For most people, those are going to be serious hangups.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun May 29, 2011 3:50 am

Yes. I value being able to hit the beach during a sunny day and enjoy a bowl of ice cream more than turning into a wolf and crushing peoples' wills and I suspect that a lot of people do as well. Which is why vampire angst in comparison to other human beings or other similarly fucked-over supernatural critters like Frankenstein's Monster or ghosts makes sense and we can sympathsize with them on some level. So for vampire-only stories and most iterations of Monster Mash they can angst without grating on the audience.

However, a large proportion of D&D's population gets fucked over for no reason AND don't get any cool toys to compensate. So even though being a vampire is a mixed bag, it's still a walk in the park compared to the trials and tribulations of being, say, a gully dwarf. Not to mention just the shittiness of being an unpowered anything in a world oppressed by genocidal social darwinism as much as the D&D setting.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun May 29, 2011 3:54 am

Maxus wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:
Lago PARANOIA wrote:because being a vampire sucks.
No, I'm sorry, I don't see it. You're immortal, super strong, fast, can probably change shape and dominate the mind, etc etc.

What's so bad about being a vampire?
Thirst for human blood, sunlight, not much social contact...For most people, those are going to be serious hangups.

Neh. For a lot of people, that's an acceptable trade off. The beach is over rated, especially during the day, and as for ice cream, depending on the mythology or system, you still can enjoy a bowl.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun May 29, 2011 4:07 am

Who cares what you personally want, Prak? The point is that it's understandable for someone to be upset about the tradeoff and view it as a raw deal--even if you would personally like it.

Or if that's too abstract for you, consider this. A lot of middle-class people living in, say, the 1950's would consider themselves fortunate if some serial killer chopped off their legs and left them a bag of money worth three million dollars after taxes for the lulz. But there are still people who would lament the tradeoff and they would be justifiably be entitled to some whining about the unfairness of it all despite the huge sack of money they got.

Yet if these people went to a military convention and whined about the unfairness of it all to a bunch of homeless vets who lost multiple limbs in the war they would no longer have our sympathy. Savvy?

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Sun May 29, 2011 6:36 am

Far as I know what was being advocated was a Vampire Random Villager not a Vampire Wizard on the basis that people should only have to keep track of one phlebotinum source.

If told to write such a thing for a generic fantasy campaign, or even a D&D campaign where I was allowed to outright houserule things as long as they were made clear as being part of that universe, I'd probably bullshit something about how the "party bloodsucker" didn't finish their turning so doesn't get the full set of powers or angst of a true vampire. This is exactly what happened to Lucy in Bram Stoker's Dracula - not sure she got any powers but she could sunbathe, yet she was enough vampire to be burnt by holy things - but I'm not sure anything like it is possible in D&D.

Since we can already make the Draziw a were-rat or were-something-shit for being-shunned angst that doesn't get you magic powers. Especially if you rule that your local were-whatevers cannot transform at will and cannot resist the full moon... which again has the risk of not being true to D&D, me being no expert and too lazy to look it up.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun May 29, 2011 6:42 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Who cares what you personally want, Prak? The point is that it's understandable for someone to be upset about the tradeoff and view it as a raw deal--even if you would personally like it.

Or if that's too abstract for you, consider this. A lot of middle-class people living in, say, the 1950's would consider themselves fortunate if some serial killer chopped off their legs and left them a bag of money worth three million dollars after taxes for the lulz. But there are still people who would lament the tradeoff and they would be justifiably be entitled to some whining about the unfairness of it all despite the huge sack of money they got.

Yet if these people went to a military convention and whined about the unfairness of it all to a bunch of homeless vets who lost multiple limbs in the war they would no longer have our sympathy. Savvy?

Because I am by far not the only person who says "Wait, so I'm immortal, super strong, super fast, and other wise supery, and I just have to stay out of the sun and drink blood? Sold." With possibly a few questions about the blood somewhere in there, but the point still stands. Hell, in a D&D world where your best occupation choice is "murderous hobo" and there are totally nigh-always evil sentient races you can drink from virtually guilt free, and plenty of magic to do away with concerns of sunlight, the deal is even better.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sun May 29, 2011 7:11 am

I'm of the opinion that the upsides to being a vampire would probably outweigh the downsides. Well, in a D&D setting, anyway. Edit: Except for the LA. God-fucking damn, +8?

But yeah, vampire angst is a classic theme. I can understand where it's coming from, and it's not unreasonable to have angsty vampires. But also, even in-setting not all vampires are going to be angsty. There are going to be lots of people who feel lots of different ways about it, some are going to be bummed and some are going to think it rocks.

That said, a vampire character is difficult. They literally cannot show up in sunlight, and that's never going to work. And they drink blood, which is an incredibly difficult thing to have someone in the protagonist party doing. I think it's safe to rule out vampires for their impracticalities.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun May 29, 2011 7:45 am

There are lots of non-angsty vampires. Since you're going to be doing an ensemble cast cartoon show, you should look at the vampire girl from Magical Pokaan. She only angsts about her breast size. And even that only because it's Anime and everyone angsts about breast size.

You have random village girl and then you have her get turned by one of the major evil dudes. Then she has a weird bag of tricks including super strength and mind control so she can not be dead weight, even as she wanders around the world being a good metaphor for the puberty that the target audience is going through.

As for Sunlight, D&D vampires sometimes have and sometimes do not have that problem. The 3e Monster Manual Vampire explodes in sunlight. But there are also over a dozen Vampire variants in 3e, and some of them do not. The 4e Vampire, which is likely to be the inspiration anyway does not explode in sunlight.

So that's your "new kid". The rest of the team wants to be a simple four person party. So Wizard, Druid (replaces Cleric to avoid having to discuss religion every episode), Paladin (replaces Fighter to allow for phlebtonium actions), and Bounty Hunter (has assassin skill set but uses bolos and a net to avoid showing blood on children's television). The main casters are of course pure human to avoid phlebtonium confusion. The Bounty Hunter should be a Drow to help explain where smoke bombs and stuff come from. The Paladin should probably be half orc.

Now I personally favor 2 guys, 3 girls. But you could really shuffle things around as far as sex goes. I think I would like it if the females were the Half-Orc Paladin and the Wizard. That way you get three extremes of beauty going. You have the waifish vampire girl, you have the elegant medium breasted enchantress, and you have the "power girl" type who has broad shoulders, muscular arms, and large breasts. And she has little tusks that you don't give much of an explanation for until like episode 7. Meanwhile you have two very differently handsome men in the group. Where the Drow Bounty hunter is a clean shaven Bishonen with a flapping cloak and a gleaming eye (and possibly a black flower), the Human Druid is a rugged and bearded outdoorsman who turns into a bear.

But you want to avoid accusations of sexism, even though of course you are using gender stereotypes super hard. And that means that simple categories like "the healers" or "the warriors" should be split between male and female.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun May 29, 2011 10:39 am

FrankTrollman wrote:You have random village girl and then you have her get turned by one of the major evil dudes. Then she has a weird bag of tricks including super strength and mind control so she can not be dead weight, even as she wanders around the world being a good metaphor for the puberty that the target audience is going through.

Oh boy, a character who can do a limited range of tricks but not as well as their party members.

Let's get real here, a vampire character is pretty pointless in a party that has a wizard OR a druid (especially the latter, since probably the only thing that druids don't do way better than any of the classic vampire powers is mind control), but having both is just plain cruel.

The only way around that is to start giving the character crazy-ass powers unprecedented by vampires except for maybe niche ones you saw in a game somewhere. But you're already handwaving the sunlight issue and blood ones. At that point, why even have a character that's called a vampire except as a weak and misguided attempt to siphon the cool from another monster archetype?

FrankTrollman wrote:As for Sunlight, D&D vampires sometimes have and sometimes do not have that problem. The 3e Monster Manual Vampire explodes in sunlight. But there are also over a dozen Vampire variants in 3e, and some of them do not. The 4e Vampire, which is likely to be the inspiration anyway does not explode in sunlight.

Mary Suepire.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun May 29, 2011 10:52 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:You have random village girl and then you have her get turned by one of the major evil dudes. Then she has a weird bag of tricks including super strength and mind control so she can not be dead weight, even as she wanders around the world being a good metaphor for the puberty that the target audience is going through.
Oh boy, a character who can do a limited range of tricks but not as well as their party members.

Let's get real here, a vampire character is pretty pointless in a party that has a wizard OR a druid (especially the latter, since probably the only thing that druids don't do way better than any of the classic vampire powers is mind control), but having both is just plain cruel.

The only way around that is to start giving the character crazy-ass powers unprecedented by vampires except for maybe niche ones you saw in a game somewhere. But you're already handwaving the sunlight issue and blood ones. At that point, why even have a character that's called a vampire except as a weak and misguided attempt to siphon the cool from another monster archetype?

FrankTrollman wrote:As for Sunlight, D&D vampires sometimes have and sometimes do not have that problem. The 3e Monster Manual Vampire explodes in sunlight. But there are also over a dozen Vampire variants in 3e, and some of them do not. The 4e Vampire, which is likely to be the inspiration anyway does not explode in sunlight.
Mary Suepire.

Someone would like to have a word with you, I think he just got done working over Count Orlok and the writer of that dross with his own author.

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Sun May 29, 2011 4:25 pm

If one wanted to have a templated character in such a show, something like a female phrenic human barbarian or monk would make a decent tie in for product identity like illithids. The drow character could be involved in the exposition for how the freaky psychic chick got back to the surface.

Vampires and werewolves are beyond played out. At best, using one looks hackneyed and lazy while at worst it's a deliberate marketing ploy.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue May 31, 2011 3:53 pm

Nebuchadnezzar wrote:If one wanted to have a templated character in such a show, something like a female phrenic human barbarian or monk would make a decent tie in for product identity like illithids. The drow character could be involved in the exposition for how the freaky psychic chick got back to the surface.

Overlaps too much with the Monk/Pally, falls into the DMF trap, and nobody outside of Stormwind and his fell brood give a fuck about Psionics. It'd make a nice side character, but there would need to be a lot of explanation of both the phlebotinum of how Monks don't suck/how the Barbarian isn't just a very angry DMF as well as the crazy Psychic crap if it were a main.

Vampires and werewolves are beyond played out. At best, using one looks hackneyed and lazy while at worst it's a deliberate marketing ploy.

There are hundreds of years of tales and a myriad different flavors of vampire or werewolf; the sparklepire/sexy beast Anita Blake style is the only kind that could be considered played out.

@Lago, what the fuck are you talking about? Prak just presented a rendition of the most famous vampire in popular culture bumming about in sunlight with proper protection. To use an anime rape game example, characters like Rachel from BB Remilia from Touhou just need a parasol to go out in the sun.

Also if the Druid's thing is turning into a bear and ruining people, and the Wizard's trick is being a blaster, the Vampire can do mindwhammies and defensive transformations, basically filling the Illusionist role. If the kid-friendly Assassin is all about traps and range, the Vampire can also pick up the swashbuckling wire-fu slack that that got split from the excision of the Rogue superclass.

jadagul · Post by **jadagul** » Tue May 31, 2011 6:50 pm

For that matter, in the original book Dracula could just wander around in the sunlight no problem. He couldn't use a bunch of his powers but he was totally safe.

And yeah, the potential powerset a vampire could have has a lot of overlaps with a wizard, and a lot of overlaps with a druid. But the druid turns into a bigass bear while the vampire turns into a bat, and if the wizard happens not to have any charm spells, I'm not sure how much of an issue that is in actuality.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue May 31, 2011 7:13 pm

jadagul wrote:For that matter, in the original book Dracula could just wander around in the sunlight no problem. He couldn't use a bunch of his powers but he was totally safe.

I recall he was wearing a wide straw hat to keep the sun off.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:22 pm

Mask De H wrote: @Lago, what the fuck are you talking about? Prak just presented a rendition of the most famous vampire in popular culture bumming about in sunlight with proper protection.

Yeah, and how old is that book? It's almost as if the vampire myth evolved in the century since then, much like the whole 'superheroes don't use guns' thing even though Batman and The Phantom totally did at one point. Imagine that! There is a reason why the vast (though not overwhelming) majority of vampires since then have the sunlight weakness, because it's cool and has a bunch of built-in plothooks. When you have vampires without the sunlight weakness (or much of any weakness) from then on you either get Mary Suepires like in Twilight or being a vampire is meaningless like in Touhou.

Yeah, it's not very hard to find a vampire that bucks the odds on one or two or three parts of the mythos, but Frank's suggestion for a vampire gal uses almost nothing from pop cultural definitions of the vampire. There's no detachment from humanity, no inconvenient weaknesses, no metaphor of it being aristocracy or an underground society, no nothing. You just have a sexy gal with fangs who gets vast powers for no reason. FFS he was using the 4E Vampire class, which aren't even enjoyed even by the fandom it was made for, as an attempt to prop up the argument.

MDH wrote: Also if the Druid's thing is turning into a bear and ruining people, and the Wizard's trick is being a blaster, the Vampire can do mindwhammies and defensive transformations, basically filling the Illusionist role. If the kid-friendly Assassin is all about traps and range, the Vampire can also pick up the swashbuckling wire-fu slack that that got split from the excision of the Rogue superclass.

jadagul wrote:But the druid turns into a bigass bear while the vampire turns into a bat, and if the wizard happens not to have any charm spells,

Or you could just give the Assassin and Druid all of that shit in the first place like they originally had it and find a different class.

That's yet another problem with the whole vampire idea. If the fifth wheel was a psion or a shaman then you don't have to hamstring the other characters' schticks to make room for the character. When you're doing stupid shit like 'the assassin can't use his spells to create illusions or charm people' or 'the druid isn't allowed to turn into a wolf or a bat' then it's time to look for a different class.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:42 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:That's yet another problem with the whole vampire idea. If the fifth wheel was a psion or a shaman then you don't have to hamstring the other characters' schticks to make room for the character. When you're doing stupid shit like 'the assassin can't use his spells to create illusions or charm people' or 'the druid isn't allowed to turn into a wolf or a bat' then it's time to look for a different class.

No, no, they're different; the bat the druid turns into is brown, the bat the vampire turns into is black; also, the druid can use his/her powers in sunlight.