Cheese Updates, 3.5

[Username17]

What happens if two Devoted Defenders both use Harm's Way to take a hits for each other?

Every time they use it, the attack is currently targetting themselves. So both of them can take their attack of opportunity for the attack targetting the other one, and then the attack actually resolves against whichever one they agree to.

Since there is no limit on how many times you can use it in a round, would the attack ever be resolved?

If you have a +19 bonus to your ride skill there is no limit to the number of times you can bounce onto and off of your horse. Nonetheless, since you stop actually accomplishing anything by this means once you have benefitted from having both the on horse and off horse state this round; and the initiative sequence is not in fact advancing - sooner or later the DM is going to hit you with a half brick in a sock so that you'll stop wasting playing time.

Similarly, in this instance they can hand back the attack several times, but once they've both gained the benefits of an attack targetting both of them the only thing they get by handing it back and forth some more is eating up playing time - not game time.
"Australia! America! Australia! America! Australia! America!"

But then the wizard cannot swap places with you, take the hit, and have you negate the damage with a ride check... Wow. That is a pretty cool trick.

Although the Wizard can planar bind creatures capable of casting the Shield Other Spell, and then have non-present NPCs take a large percentage of all of the damage from the whole party. It's a really cool trick, but it's nothing you couldn't do better by getting a Fighter/Barbarian/Devoted Defender Human Cohort and then polymorph any objecting them into a dragon.

The Cohort Level Allowance system is a brutal jest, near as I can tell.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Okay. Apparently, I need a lesson in elementary min-maxxing, because somewhere along the line I kept pursuing the dream of... I dunno what.

As you may know, from the Eldritch Knight thread, I've been looking for RUP that hasn't been done by anyone else before. Specifically, I've had my eye on being able to rock with unarmed fighting and magic. The EK seemed like a good idea, as the arcane strike promised some goodies combined with the attack routine of two-weapon fighting + haste + unarmed strikings. But I'm beginning to feel that it's not all that great.

So. Back to the basics. Cleric and druid cheese. I want an unarmed fighter, not for the min-max value but for the thematic value (we're doing a martial-arts themed campaign). I was going to do druid, but the DM gaped in horror after reading some druid cheese from here and no one is being a druid until she can work something out. So that leaves cleric.

Okay. I know this is a very, very suboptimal choice ahead of time, but I don't care. What I want to do is make a clerical unarmed fighter the best he can be, relying on as much core stuff as possible. Persistent spell is allowed for now. No godless clerics. The feat list, currently, is this:

The prestige class, currently, is this:

Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster, *Archmage, *Assassin, *Blackguard, *Dragon Disciple, Duelist,
Dwarven Defender, Eldritch Knight, *Hierophant, Loremaster, Shadowdancer

Complete Warrior:
Bear Warrior, Bladesinger, Cavalier, Dark Hunter, Dervish, Drunken Master, Exotic Weapons Master,
Frenzied Berserker, Gnomish Giant-Slayer, Halfling Outrider, Hulking Hurler, Hunter of the Dead,
Invisible Blade, Justicar, Knight Protector, Master Thrower, Nature’s Warrior, Order of the Bow,
*Ravager, Reaping Mauler, Spellsword, Stonelord, Tattooed Monk, War Chanter
Class Books:
Some PrC’s that were allowed in 3.0 are still allowed and were not reprinted in Complete Warrior. These
Prc’s from the Class Books.
Sword and Fist:
*Fist of Hextor (Renamed Fist of Maugrim), Master of Chains, Ninja, Red Avenger, Weapon Master
Masters of the Wild:
Deepwood Sniper, Foe Hunter, Shifter, Tamer of the Beasts, Watch Detective, Windrider
Defenders of the Faith:
*Divine Oracle, Holy Liberator, Warpriest
Tome and Blood:
Elemental Savant, Fatespinner, *Mage of the Arcane Order (Academy of Sages affiliated), Wayfarer Guide
Song and Silence:
Spymaster, Temple Raider, Thief Acrobat, Virtuoso

Aaaand... as for the feats:

Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Armor Proficiency (Light, Medium, Heavy), Athletic,
Augment Summoning, *Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Improved
Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Whirlwind Attack, Combat Reflexes, Deceitful, Deft Hands,
Diligent, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Endurance, Diehard, Eschew Materials, Exotic Weapon
Proficiency, Extra Turning, Great Fortitude, Hover, Improved Counterspell, Improved Critical, *Improved
Familiar, Improved Initiative, *Improved Natural Armor, *Improved Natural Attack, Improved Turning,
Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, Stunning Fist, Investigator,
Iron Will, *Leadership, Lightning Reflexes, Magical Aptitude, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Mounted
Combat, Mounted Archery, Ride-By-Attack, Spirited Charge, Trample, *Multiattack, *Multi-Weapon
Fighting, Natural Spell, Negotiator, Nimble fingers, Persuasive, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot,
Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Shot on the Run, Improved Precise Shot, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave,
Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Run, *Scent Self-
Sufficient, Shield Proficiency, Improved Shield Bash, Tower Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon
Proficiency, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Mastery, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell
Penetration, Stealthy, Toughness, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater
Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus,
Greater Weapon Specialization, *Wingover
Craft Feats: Brew Potion, *Craft Construct, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft
Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Scribe Scroll
Metamagic Feats: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken
Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Widen Spell.
Improved Familiar has expanded familiar options as well.
D20 Book Feats:
In addition to the 3.5 feats we have included a collection of approved feats from the other game books that
are out there. Many of these books are 3.5 books released by Wizards of the Coast and also 3.0 Splat Books
(Class Books) That came out during the years of the 3.0 release. Since the update of 3.0 to 3.5 and our
commitment to run the game, mostly, as a 3.5 game there may be some feats whose game mechanics no
longer mesh. These feats have been altered or removed to accommodate rules changes.
Complete Warrior:
A large bulk of the feats was recently updated in 3.5 through the release of the book ‘The Complete
Warrior’. This book and its feat list supercedes the splat book versions. By and large the feats are the same.
If there are any questions the admin can answer them. We will start with Complete Warrior and then
continue onward. Feats that have been modified will be noted with a *.
Arcane Strike, Axiomatic Strike, Clever Wrestling, Close Quarters Fighting, Defensive Throw, Destructive
Rage, Earth’s Embrace, Eagle Claw Attack, Extend Rage, Extra Rage, Extra Smiting, Extra Stunning, Eyes
In The Back Of Your Head, Faster Healing, Favored Power Attack, Fists of Iron, Fleet of Foot, Flick Of
The Wrist, Flying Kick, Freezing The Lifeblood, Greater Kiai Shout, Greater Resiliency, Greater Two-
Weapon Defense, Hold The Line, Improved Buckler Defense, Improved Combat Expertise, Improved
Favored Enemy, Improved Mounted Archery, Improved Rapid Shot, Improved Toughness, Improved Two-
Weapon Defense, Improved Weapon Familiarity, Instantaneous Rage, Intimidating Rage, Karmic Strike,
Kiai Shout, Pin Shield, Power Critical, Prone Attack, Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, Rapid
Stunning, Roundabout Kick, Sharp Shooting, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Throw Anything, Zen Archery
Divine Feats: Divine Cleansing, Divine Might, Divine Resistance, Divine Vigor, Sacred Vengeance
Tactical Feats: Tactical Feats is a new feat type added in with Complete Warrior. We feel that the idea is
sound and so we allow it on the game. In short, Tactical feats are feats with high pre-reqs that allow a
character to perform a number of actions referred to as maneuvers. If you are playing a character with a
tactical feat it is your responsibility to keep track of the maneuver and the actions you are doing and
performing. It is your responsibility to keep track of the feats ability and the round by round actions you
take related to the feat. Do /not/ take these feats if you do not own Complete Warrior or have access to its
data. The Dungeon Masters are not responsible for stopping scenes to teach you how to use a feat you’ve
selected.
Calvary Charger, Combat Brute, Elusive Target, Formation Expert, Giantbane, Raptor School, Shock
Trooper, Sun School

Anvil of Thunder, Bear Fang, Crescent Moon, Hammer’s Edge, High Sword Low Axe, Lightning Mace,
Net and Trident, Quick Staff, Spinning Halberd, Three Mountains
Sword and Fist:
Circle Kick, Dirty Fighting, Knockdown, Lightning Fists, Off-Hand Parry
Tome and Blood:
Tome and Blood is the splat book that deals with arcane casting. Although some of these were taken and
used in 3.5 PHB, we also allow for several others.
Arcane Defense, Arcane Preparation, Innate Spell, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell
Specialization
Meta Magic: Chain Spell, Cooperative Spell, Delay Spell, Energy Admixture, Energy Substitution,
Eschew Materials, Persistent Spell, Sanctum Spell, Sculpt Spell, Split Ray, Subdual Substitution
Masters of the Wild:
Masters of the Wild was a book released that dealt primarily with outdoor classes such as Rangers, Druids
and Barbarians. Many of these feats had a once over and were included in 3.5 and the Complete Warrior.
The following are additional feats that may be chosen:
Animal Defiance, Animal Control, Brachiation, Dragon’s Toughness, Dwarf’s Toughness, Giant’s
Toughness, Improved Flight, Improved Swimming, Plant Defiance, Plant Control, Resist Disease, Resist
Poison, Resistance to Energy, Shadow, Snatch, Supernatural Blow, Extra Wild Shape, Fast Wild Shape,
Natural Spell, Speaking Wild Shape
Craft Feats: Create Infusion
Defenders of the Faith:
Defenders of the Faith was a book that focused on divine spell casters who were tied to religions and
deities; namely clerics and paladins. Many of these feats found their way into Complete Warrior. Those
that did not that we still use are as follows;
Heighten Turning, Quicken Turning
Song and Silence:
Song and Silence feats have been adequately covered by the 3.5 inclusions and Complete Warrior but a few
remain that we have included. This book covered Bards and Rogues.
Disguise Spell, Extra Music, Lingering Song, Subsonics

Spells all from the PHB as of right now, though that will change with the release of Complete Divine.

I know this is suboptimal min-maxxing compared to just getting a greatsword or just being a druid, but I've just been completely stumped since the EK idea, which I was going to go with, got shot down.

[Username17]

See if you can sell the DM on Body Blades. It's a first level spell and it makes you the equivalent of a Monk except that instead of having a Stunning Fist and Flurry you have 2 more first level spells and an armor class.

Take the War domain for Unarmed Combat, and whatever other domain you can get for whatever gods that happen to offer that.

I for one take great issue with people who won't let godless clerics in, because honestly even the Forgotten Realms doesn't bother to tell you what the domains of all the gods are, let alone what being a cleric of them actually entails.

In any case, even with Body Blades, unarmed combat is fundamentally inferior to doing exactly the same thing with a warhammer (which could eventually be a wooden warhammer for more absurd power). A warhammer does more damage than unarmed attacks can at the high end, and at the low end it can be masterwork and does more damage.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Man, forget that.

Let's go back to the basics. I know elven cleric archers are really popular and all, but as an alternative what about a human one? You would have to shell out like 10,000 gp for an unslotted bracers of archery, lesser (and then get some greater bracers of archery) to make up for the lost proficiency, and you only have a +1 to skill points per level to make up for all of those piddling bonuses.

But there's also friggin' CW zen archery, which means you won't have to split up your spellcasting stat between your attack stat. The only real downside is, well, it stacks really poorly with the madness domain power. But being an elven cleric archer stacks poorly with polymorph any object, so who knows.

What I basically see in for human clerical archers is the ability to trade in all of the phat elf bonuses for the ability to pick two domains that you want (travel and trickery in my case) instead of having one of them be elf.

[Username17]

Lesser and Greater Bracers of Archery do not stack.

Once you get the War Domain for the Longbow, the free proficiencies of being an Elf don't actually matter. It's not like you are going to be swapping between Longbows and Shortbows for some reason.

One advantage of the Elf is that they get +2 Dex and access to the Elf Domain. That gives PBS for free, so being an Elven Archer is like a Human Archer in number of feats, not to mention that they have Low Light Vision, which is double vision range which means a lot to an archer. And of course still has another advantage: Clerics don't need to rest for 8 hours to get their spells, and Elves don't need to rest for 8 hours unless they are arcane casters.

So Elven Cleric comes with a huge bonus: You only need to rest for 4 hours a day. And let me tell you, having your Cleric up and armed during the whole night watch is a huge benefit, especially early on (when having a high Wisdom makes you the best spotter and listener in the party).

As for Humans... well, if you get access to the right gods, it can be just as good or better. The "Elf" domain has been on occassion renamed the "hunt" domain in various places, and is just about perfect for a worshipper of Artemis. As a worshipper of Artemis you can plausibly get Weapon Focus: Longbow and Point Blank Shot out of your domains, which means that you can have Zen Archery and Rapid Shot at first level - so your Dex can go hang and you can run around in Plate Mail.

With only two major stats to keep track of - Wisdom and Strength, you can give moderate attention to Charisma and Constitution, which will leave you a terror against Undead and a power in melee combat with your morningstar.

It really depends upon what you are allowed to do with your god choices. The only evidence I am working on is that Hextor Doesn't exist, and his warriors have been replaced with Folger's Crystals in the form of worshippers of a villainous wolf from the Chronicles of Narnia.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Lesser and Greater Bracers of Archery do not stack.

They don't?

I was under the impression that if you were walking into them with no bow proficiency at all and you strapped on the lesser bracers of archery, you magically had bow proficiency. Which when combined with bracers of archery, greater, which does not work without bow proficiency (which you now have) you picked up the competence bonuses.

Though that could get kinda wonky. It'd depend on the order which you put on the items.

[Username17]

Doesn't give you the proficiency, it lets you use the weapons as if you had the proficiency.

Which means that it cancels the -4 non-proficiency penalty, but doesn't actually trigger the "you have proficiency" check box for the next item.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

On the game I play, there isn't a deity that grants the war domain with longbows nor does the elf domain exist. So.

Here's what I was thinking of going with, and what I'll end up with:

I'm working on some sort of funky point buy scheme, where it costs as much to raise a stat from 17 to 18 as it does from 10 to 11. Crazy. All stats start at 10, they can go as low as 8 (for more points), and all stats start at 10. And you have 24 points to split them up as you see fit.

Only PHB spells allowed, only two divine spellcaster PrCs allowed are the Divine Oracle and the Contemplative. There are gods, however, and my DM hasn't released a list of prestige domains for the gods. Most likely, however, I'ma gonna have to pick mysticism and something else. But that's in the future.

Level 10 Human Cleric Archer
Level 1 feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Level 3: Zen Archery
Level 6: Extend Spell
Level 9: Persistent Spell

Equipment: Bracers of archery, lesser, for sure. First thing bought, in fact. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of money to go around.

Spells per day, non-stat adjusted (Only PHB)
Domains: Travel, Trickery

1: Shield of Faith (Longstrider)
2: Owl's Wisdom (Invisibility)
3: Magic Circle, Dispel Magic, Magic Vestment (Fly)
4: Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Power (Confusion)
5: Persistant Divine Favor, Wall of Stone (Teleport)

[Username17]

Yeah, Min/Maxxing a Cleric when you have a crack-assed list of gods and have to choose one of them is nigh impossible.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Okay. Forget that.

Something is a bit missing. I've got a melee cleric thing going on, once again with domains of travel and trickery (happy happy joy joy).


1: Power Attack, Divine Might
3: ???
6: Extend Spell
9: Persistent Spell

From the above list of allowed feats, I have no idea what feat to put in there for level three. I was thinking about craft wondrous item, since the place is a bit stingy on the magical treasure, but who knows. I'm open to about anything, but I'm so strapped for ideas that I'm almost ready to pick up improved buckler defense.

Any suggestions?

[Username17]

You'd either want to take Extend Spell at 3rd and take Craft Magic Arms and Armor at 5th, or just take Cleave at 3rd.

Either route can work. Try to sell your DM on Spikes, because it is one of the most stupidly awesome spells ever.

Finally, is there any way you can get your hand on the Sun Domain? If there is, you might think about Extra Turning. Then you could make Undead your bitch and still have about a kajillion extra normal turn attempts that aren't doing anything but taking up space until you sack them out for Divine Might.

Note, however, that Divine Might is kind of craptacular in the Complete Warrior, because it only lasts one round (at the levels you will largely be using it, one attack) - and is thusly just like Weapon Specialization except can only be used a small number of times per day. I'd rather take the Destruction Domain and the Extra Smiting Feat unless my Charisma was stupid-awesome.

That being said, why not take your feats:

1: Dodge, Mobility
3: Extend Spell
6: Persistent Spell
9: Elusive Target

Elusive Target is for some reason on your list of "acceptable" feats - a sad state of affairs which you should immediately rectify by actually using it! Start in a flanked position and just simply move - your opponent automatically misses you, probably stabs his friend in the face, and you get a free trip on him for no reason. That you could then Trip them with the bonuses you get from Righteous Might and thence take your own attacks on a prone enemy who just killed another enemy for you makes it all the more hillarious.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Unfortunately, I'm on a Medesha-number scheme, and my charisma bonus is stupid awesome. Like +6.

Also, won't Elusive Target save your life against Frenzied Berserkers and Singh Rager mounted foes? I thought it was just awesome on those grounds, but I never thought of combining the free trippin's and flankings.

[Username17]

Unfortunately, I'm on a Medesha-number scheme, and my charisma bonus is stupid awesome. Like +6.

Also, won't Elusive Target save your life against Frenzied Berserkers and Singh Rager mounted foes? I thought it was just awesome on those grounds, but I never thought of combining the free trippin's and flankings.

It also makes you breakfast in the morning afterwards. The concept of Tactical Feats is so awesome that they are becoming the standard of FFd20, but the implementation in the Complete Warrior is laughable. Giant Bane is a feat that allows you to spend 3 consecutive rounds mystifying your DM with obscure rules while not killing Giants, while Elusive Target and Shock Trooper basically cause you to automatically win.

-Username17

[fbmf]

Dare I ask what a Medesha-number scheme is?

Game On,
fbmf

[Lago_AM3P]

(The person is question should be Maj, in fact, but my memory is bad.)

Any, it was a rather tasteless joke I made at another person's expense on a thread which changed my life.

http://azure.bbboy.net/niftymessageboar ... br][br]The issue was regarding the fact that a monk can have two 18s in stats yet still have enough stat points left over to power up other vital statistics. Because if the monk was under a regular stat point scheme that the DMG says you should have, it would've gotten drowned out without expertise.

This situation (having multiple 18s) applies to my character in this instance--if I was going on a more statistically fair scheme, I wouldn't have even bothered with divine might. But since I'm going on a statistically near-impossible scheme... you get the idea.

Why do all roads point back to that thread? I dunno. That was the thread that turned me on to Frank logic and encouraged me to look at the game more closely than what 'felt right', since up until that point I was infatuated with monks but, in actual play, I had the vague feeling that my concept was not being represented fairly on the game. But with actual numbers and stuff, I realized that my monk did not measure up and stuff and that the actual trick to making the character most suited for you is to look at the numbers. As opposed to some intangible criteria like 'it's about the character, not the numbers' and 'who cares how your character performs as long as it is REALLY COOL IN YOUR HEART'.

[fbmf]

Thanks, Lago.

Game On,
fbmf

[Thoth_Amon]

I rarely cross post BUT...

I still love this thread (the one linked to by Lago above).

All of it. It is the greatest.

How does the dire wolf fly at 200, is he wearing the mask?
How does the LG fighter take advantage of his Lances evasion ability if he is wearing Rhinohide?

TA

[Username17]

How does the dire wolf fly at 200, is he wearing the mask?

Being a bonded Mount, the Wolf gets the bonus from the Mask when the character uses it. The Wolf also benefits from the rider's armor, which provides a +10 competence bonus to its move rate.

And finally, the wolf is using "horseshoes" of speed. They resize and shape in the same way as a half-orc barbarian can wear a halfling's boots.

90' + 10' * 2 = 200'. Or 190'. Or 160'. Or 100'. Or whatever - depending upon the Sage's mood at the time and the latest interpretation of the entrails. But 200' was and is the simplest rendition of what that wolf's flight speed was supposed to be.

-Username17

[Thoth_Amon]

Where is the mask from?

How does the LG fighter take advantage of his Lances evasion ability if he is wearing Rhinohide?

TA

[Username17]

Where is the mask from?

Faiths and Pantheons.

How does the LG fighter take advantage of his Lances evasion ability if he is wearing Rhinohide?

In 3rd edition, Evasion does not have a general set of armor restrictions. Each evasion ability specifically turns off when wearing a certain amount of armor.

The Monk or Rogue version turn off when wearing medium armor, but the Ring of Evasion version does not.

The Evasion ability granted by the lance doesn't actually say that it turns off at all - so it doesn't.

-Username17

[Thoth_Amon]

Wow. Pretty sneaky sis!

I am not sure my DM will go for my mount sharing spells from spells I get from activating a magic item.

Share Spells: At the paladin’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts on herself also affect her mount. The mount must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if it returns to the paladin before the duration expires. Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A paladin and her mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mount’s type (magical beast).

I am not sure item activation is his mind will equate to "Casts on self" And what about Percistent effects like SR from a Mantle of SR? Do I have to take my cloak off and put it on every time I get on my horse to have them share the effect --as I was further than 5 feet away briefly?

TA

[Username17]

Activating Magic Items has been referenced as "casting spells from magic items".

However, continuous effect items, like the mantle of SR are not a casting of a spell, they are a continuous benefit. They are not shared by your mount.

So your mount benefits from your Boots of Haste, but not from your Boots of Striding and Springing.

-Username17

[Thoth_Amon]

A ring of Blinking is command activated. But the blink dog lets you fire it up as a free action which is sweet!

TA

[Username17]

A ring of Blinking is command activated. But the blink dog lets you fire it up as a free action which is sweet!

According to the Arms and Equipment Guide, yes.

That's sometimes a fairly dangerous thing to make assumptions based on - but it's certainly precedent.

-Username17

[Username17]

Note on Monks and Armor Class:

A Monk gains Wisdom Bonus to AC, they also gain a class level based bonus to AC, which hits +4 at 20th level.

They can have an Armor Bonus to AC, but they pay for it as if it were all enhancement bonus all the way to the ground.

They can't have a shield bonus.

They have less BAB than a Fighter (-5 points at 20th level).

That's it, every other bonus they can have is just the same as that of a Fighter - or a Cleric for that matter.

So let's ignore all the other bonuses. All the Deflection Bonuses and Natural Armor bonuses and Sacred Bonuses and all of it (let's face it, the highest AC available is on the Cleric because they can change their form to something that gets huge natural armor bonuses and cast various buff spells to jack their AC bonuses bigger than are otherwise available - the Cap on Shield of Faith is higher than the Ring of Protection cap). Further, let's step away from considering the effects of Epic play for the moment. Let's just compare what you get and what you give up for being a monk:

You lose:
-5 potential bonuses from Expertise/Superior Expertise.
-7 Potential bonuses from normal shield, -9 if you would otherwise use a Tower Shield.
-5 potential bonuses from not having an enhancement bonus on Mithril Celestial Platemail and instead having to settle for Bracers of Armor.
Variable bonuses from class features of combat-useful classes such as Devoted defender or Knight of the Middle Circle, or whatever.


You gain:
+4 Flat Bonus to AC.
+ Wisdom Bonus to AC.
No cap on your Dexterity Modifier (Mithril Celestial Platemail caps you at +9).

So your theoretical pre-epic maximum armor class is larger if as a Monk your Wisdom Bonus plus (Your Dex Bonus minus 9, minimum zero) is in excess +13. Unless you allow the non-Monk to gain class-related AC raises with any of a number of printed Prestige Classes.

So, all other things being equal, your maximum pre-epic AC goes up as a Monk if your Dexterity and Wisdom exceed 32 (assuming that you don't allow players to use any of the armor layering rules or PrCs which can push the non-monk envelope even farther, and that the non-monk has chosen to avoid Tower Shields).

Now, relative gold values are going to adjust that point up or down - for example the Fighter with less than 2000 gold is going to only have plate and a shield - while the monk is just going to have bracers +1 - and then the Monk's Wisdom Modifier plus Dex Modifier only has to be +11 to break even, while on 80,000 gold the fact that magic armor is so much cheaper than Bracers or hats of agility and crap means that the Monk needs to have a very much larger bonus to pull ahead.

Since I play in games where - in general - players have a profound difficulty gaining more than two stats at thirty four, I am going to stick by my guns and say that Monks still are not the AC kings.

-Username17