So what IS going on with 4E these days.

[RobbyPants]

I don't agree with all of JaronK's designations in the Tiers, but I think the idea of tiers themself is pretty useful. I'd someone needs to be way better at passive-aggressive insults to make me censor my opinions

Yeah. The idea is useful. I think it could be improved first by not just looking at things at 20th level. Although, figuring out what "most DMs" would allow could be a pretty tough task. Ranking just by RAW is next to meaningless, as few DMs play that way.

[Gods_Trick]

I don't agree with all of JaronK's designations in the Tiers, but I think the idea of tiers themself is pretty useful. I'd someone needs to be way better at passive-aggressive insults to make me censor my opinions

Yeah. The idea is useful. I think it could be improved first by not just looking at things at 20th level. Although, figuring out what "most DMs" would allow could be a pretty tough task. Ranking just by RAW is next to meaningless, as few DMs play that way.

Agreed. Ranking it officiallyby one persons experiences and assumptions is terribly flawed.

Personally I use it to rank classes by GM's style. I had one GM that had no Magic Marts, in that world a Wiz slips to Tier 2 simply from lacking the tremendous flexibility they have by the availability of spell scrolls.

[Username17]

I had one GM that had no Magic Marts, in that world a Wiz slips to Tier 2 simply from lacking the tremendous flexibility they have by the availability of spell scrolls.

That is not what happens. Wizards don't need anything that they don't come with. Even the standard issue headband of intellect, while nice, is not necessary. There is an available fallback position involving fox's cunning and five minute workdays. A Wizard gets 4 spells of every level, which is all they could prepare on a day to day basis anyway.

Getting new pages in spell books, fancier headgear, and metamagic rods is all super cool, but the Wizard does not need any of that shit to get things done. If you take the magic marts away, hell if you take all the equipment away, the Wizard is slightly irritated. Even the Rogue is completely emasculated, and Fighters basically just might as well not show up.

Low magic campaigns increase the degree to which Wizards piss o the rest of the team. They take a hit, but it is less of a hit than anyone else.

-Username17

[Gods_Trick]

I had one GM that had no Magic Marts, in that world a Wiz slips to Tier 2 simply from lacking the tremendous flexibility they have by the availability of spell scrolls.

That is not what happens. Wizards don't need anything that they don't come with. Even the standard issue headband of intellect, while nice, is not necessary. There is an available fallback position involving fox's cunning and five minute workdays. A Wizard gets 4 spells of every level, which is all they could prepare on a day to day basis anyway.

Getting new pages in spell books, fancier headgear, and metamagic rods is all super cool, but the Wizard does not need any of that shit to get things done. If you take the magic marts away, hell if you take all the equipment away, the Wizard is slightly irritated. Even the Rogue is completely emasculated, and Fighters basically just might as well not show up.

Low magic campaigns increase the degree to which Wizards piss o the rest of the team. They take a hit, but it is less of a hit than anyone else.

-Username17

I make that judgment on the assumption that the Tiers measure effectiveness versus the environment, not intra-party effectiveness. Yes, Wizards piss on the rest of the team more, but I thought of the point of ranking was to determine variety and effectiveness of powers and abilities.

The Artificer, Cleric and Druid retain their strengths, so should remain Tier 1. The Wizard has 2 new spells per level (4 with Collegiate Training?not sure of the feat name) which is a step down from being Batman with enough preptime and divinations. Tier 2 was still enough to tear through most challenges in the campaign, but I'm certain an optimised Cleric or Druid could have outperformed my Wizard by a small margin.

[Username17]

I make that judgment on the assumption that the Tiers measure effectiveness versus the environment, not intra-party effectiveness. Yes, Wizards piss on the rest of the team more, but I thought of the point of ranking was to determine variety and effectiveness of powers and abilities.

The Artificer, Cleric and Druid retain their strengths, so should remain Tier 1. The Wizard has 2 new spells per level (4 with Collegiate Training?not sure of the feat name) which is a step down from being Batman with enough preptime and divinations. Tier 2 was still enough to tear through most challenges in the campaign, but I'm certain an optimised Cleric or Druid could have outperformed my Wizard by a small margin.

That is stupid and you are stupid. Things your character could theoretically do don't matter. What matters is what your character can actually do. And Artificers, by that metric, suck monkey turd. An Artificer can't "use any spell", he has the power that if he had spent his down time and vast personal fortune differently, he could have prepared different wands. Well excuse me, but so fucking what? You know who else could have done something different if they'd planned their character differently? Every other character. That's not even a thing.

An actual Artificer is a very weak character. Sure, you can masturbate to how awesome it would be to mix Wizard and Cleric spells, but it really isn't. The Artificer has to spend days of downtime and mountains of gold, and at the end all he gets is a couple of fucking wands. Wizards actually know more different spells than an Artificer can make scrolls or wands of, and Wizards can make scrolls and wands too. In all the literally years of fappery to mystic theurges, geomancers, and true necromancers, no one has ever come up with a single combo that particularly meaningfully benefits from cherry picking spells off of the Wizard and Cleric lists. It's just not important.

Yes, at 12th level an Artificer can "skill dance" and repeatedly powersurge a increasingly larger skill enhancer to ultimately give themselves a +10000 bonus to Use Magic Device that will last for years, and then they can run around with a Staff of Holy Word and instakill almost everything. That is a real broken Artificer loop that comes online at 12th level. But so what? Wizards and Clerics have broken power loops that come online before level 12. You can Chain Bind at level 9. Artificers still have to crawl through the first couple levels when they can't eve reliably activate scrolls and are basically an NPC class. And the big payoff isn't even big. It's just the ability to run around with some blaster wands - Wizards can already do that without sucking for level after level.

Anyone who puts Artificers at the top of any pile that isn't labeled "unemployed" needs to have a serious heart to heart with their priorities. Because it is difficult for me to even imagine a circumstance where an Artificer would get MVP for any adventure.

-Username17

[Data Vampire]

Speaking of DDI, today's update included the Essentials Warlord.

It is also free.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx ... 103warlord

[Korwin]

In all the literally years of fappery to mystic theurges, geomancers, and true necromancers, no one has ever come up with a single combo that particularly meaningfully benefits from cherry picking spells off of the Wizard and Cleric lists

very minor nitpick. You left out the Archivist. But yeah, that one doesnt lose spell levels like the other examples.

[Plebian]

the Warlord's very nifty but I wish it weren't a melee-only Warlord build. Archerlords are fun stuff.

[erik]

Yah. I have a few friends who always DM a low magic world and act surprised when casters are not impacted whereas noncasters get it in the balls.

I am playing a wizard in a low magic/low treasure campaign and I prep over half my spells as non combat spells and I still handle at least 50% of our encounter load in a party that is sometimes 6-7 players deep. I am even being made to burn pretty much all my meager treasure on party supplies and spell components (houseruled to rape wizard wallets). Oh and crafting items is verboten.

If you are making tiers then you either must put wizard in the top or you are being disingenuous.

I have never played an artificer but that is because I can just look at it and feel sorry for it in comparison to a real caster.

[Aharon]

@Frank
I think the Artificer's effectiveness largely depends on wether custom UMD-boosting items are allowed or not. With them, the checks are doable even at early levels.
One easy way for artificers to gain actual, not theoretical versatility is the 4th level Concurrent Infusions infusion (Magic of Eberron), it nets you the effects of three different first level infusions. That way, you get the Spell Storing Item Infusion without the xp cost.
That means that you have access to every 1st-4th level spell ever printed from 8th level onward. (UMD DC is 32 to store the spell in the spell-storing item, which can be done easily at 8th level if custom UMD-boosters are allowed).

[Koumei]

A friend of mine once ran a "low but wide" magic setting. The game didn't last long enough to see how it'd work out, but the basics were:

1. Up to half your character level can be spellcaster (so at level 6 you could only be Wiz 3/Other 3 or whatever - and no, Cleric 3/Wiz 3 counted as "all your levels are casting, no")
2. Reduced-Casting classes (Bard, Paladong, Ranga) count as non-casters for this, so you can go straight Bard or whatever
3. Low-end magic items are practically everywhere on the cheap, high-end stuff basically doesn't exist (so your +1 or 2 sword and armour you can basically start the game with, likewise wands of first level spells, but other stuff you more or less can't get)
4. This applies to stuff you craft, too, so you really do well taking Brew Potion or shit, where you have no XP cost or anything, but Arms and Armour isn't going to be much good
5. The MC found combat even more boring than I did, and most of it was investigation, going around court socialising at people, getting hot brides for your friends so they'll help petition to have your land increased, and so on
6. Combat would usually be against humans with class levels - often NPC levels - as such, she wouldn't have to rewrite the Monster Manual (she flat-out acknowledged the characters were weaker)

It had a pretty interesting start. The fact that she knew characters were weaker meant it probably would have turned out okay.

[Plebian]

even low-end spells can dominate in- and out-of-combat encounters, though. Glitterdust, Baleful Transposition, Charm Person, Alter Self, Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, and all of those are level 2 and can potentially destroy encounters with no effort besides memorization.

[Kaelik]

even low-end spells can dominate in- and out-of-combat encounters, though. Glitterdust, Baleful Transposition, Charm Person, Alter Self, Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, and all of those are level 2 and can potentially destroy encounters with no effort besides memorization.

Alter Self and invisibility can't win any combats, and Glitterdust requires a save, and thus sucks from a wand. (And Baleful Transposition isn't even close to encounter winning.)

[Murtak]

@Frank
I think the Artificer's effectiveness largely depends on wether custom UMD-boosting items are allowed or not. With them, the checks are doable even at early levels.
One easy way for artificers to gain actual, not theoretical versatility is the 4th level Concurrent Infusions infusion (Magic of Eberron), it nets you the effects of three different first level infusions. That way, you get the Spell Storing Item Infusion without the xp cost.
That means that you have access to every 1st-4th level spell ever printed from 8th level onward. (UMD DC is 32 to store the spell in the spell-storing item, which can be done easily at 8th level if custom UMD-boosters are allowed).

Regardless of what the artificer can or can not do, it is a class that tends towards being very weak or broken as shit. That may or may not be better than wizards, who tend to be very strong or broken as shit, but it certainly is not a healthy class. I like the general idea, and some of what they can do is fine, but most of it is nearly useless or utterly broken, and way too often it is both.

[Orion]

Glitterdust from a wand is still DC 13, which means it works on most enemies more than half the time. That's acceptable.

[echoVanguard]

Glitterdust from a wand is still DC 13, which means it works on most enemies more than half the time. That's acceptable.

Half the time at what CR? The math on this looks pretty suspect.

echo

[Kaelik]

Congratulations echo Vanguard. You have graduated from nameless newbie who isn't on ignore yet to newbie who has proven to actually have some sense.

Maybe Josh will have to not ban everyone who joins this month, like he did Febuary and March.

[Orion]

Glitterdust is a level 2 spell. If you're trying to win encounters with it froma wand, you are hopefully only level 3 or 4. It's an AoE, so it should mostly be targeting mobs of CR1 or CR2 critters. Most monsters have "poor" will save progressions, especially since you're probably not really fighting fey or outsiders yet. I don't think anything has more than 5 HD at CR 2, so that's at most a +1 base will save.

Meanwhile Wisdom modifiers range from +2 for some animals, to -1 for the most dangerous giants and humanoids. (Orcs, Ogres). So enemy Will bonuses are usually going to be between -1 and +3.

[Josh_Kablack]

Maybe Josh will have to not ban everyone who joins this month, like he did Febuary and March.

1. I don't have the authority to *ban* anyone. This forum would be a heck of a lot smaller and even more insular if I did.

2. I only mass ignored all the Feb. registrants. March was back to case-by-case. (Also I'm reasonably sure one of the March registrants does live within fistfight range of me.)

[echoVanguard]

Glitterdust is a level 2 spell. If you're trying to win encounters with it froma wand, you are hopefully only level 3 or 4. It's an AoE, so it should mostly be targeting mobs of CR1 or CR2 critters. Most monsters have "poor" will save progressions, especially since you're probably not really fighting fey or outsiders yet. I don't think anything has more than 5 HD at CR 2, so that's at most a +1 base will save.

Meanwhile Wisdom modifiers range from +2 for some animals, to -1 for the most dangerous giants and humanoids. (Orcs, Ogres). So enemy Will bonuses are usually going to be between -1 and +3.

Even assuming your best case (that you are level 4, and crafting the wand yourself using craft reserve) the wand is still going to cost you ~42% of your wealth by level. Furthermore, undead (a common enemy at all levels of the game) have a strong will save. Lastly, if your argument is essentially "glitterdust allows you to win encounters against hordes of weak enemies with poor saves by spending half your resources", I don't find that very compelling evidence.

echo

[Plebian]

or you could, you know, just cast it yourself and have the DC be about 16 or higher. which, at level 3, means you're going to screw over anything in the area much more than half the time.

even low-end spells can dominate in- and out-of-combat encounters, though. Glitterdust, Baleful Transposition, Charm Person, Alter Self, Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, and all of those are level 2 and can potentially destroy encounters with no effort besides memorization.

Alter Self and invisibility can't win any combats, and Glitterdust requires a save, and thus sucks from a wand. (And Baleful Transposition isn't even close to encounter winning.)

well then it's a good thing I didn't say they won combats! the point was to list low-level spells that could wreck a great number of encounters. not just combat encounters.

it is incredibly amusing that I list a series of spells including things like Detect Thoughts and your immediate thought is of combat and only combat. I thought 4e was the one where combat was the only thing? you're slipping up, man.

[Kaelik]

or you could, you know, just cast it yourself and have the DC be about 16 or higher. which, at level 3, means you're going to screw over anything in the area much more than half the time.

In which case, you are not an Artificer, and therefore, not relevant to this conversation.

Alter Self and invisibility can't win any combats, and Glitterdust requires a save, and thus sucks from a wand. (And Baleful Transposition isn't even close to encounter winning.)

well then it's a good thing I didn't say they won combats! the point was to list low-level spells that could wreck a great number of encounters. not just combat encounters.

it is incredibly amusing that I list a series of spells including things like Detect Thoughts and your immediate thought is of combat and only combat. I thought 4e was the one where combat was the only thing? you're slipping up, man.

Alternatively, I didn't point out that Detect Thoughts would not win combat encounters, and I specifically specified combat encounters for those two (and not for Glitterdust and Baleful) to demonstrate that Artificers are fucking ass in combat.

[PhoneLobster]

Once again Plebian.

STOP WITH THE EDITION WARS SPAM.

Your "spells that achieve things are bad for the game!" argument is hilarious and all, but its STUPID and OFF TOPIC.

Fuck the hell off already, I want more actual news on what is actually happening with actual 4E, not your fucking wankathon.

Seriously, just go and make a wankathon thread for yourself, it's real easy, just one button click on "new topic", I think if you try hard it may only take the likes of you about 2 hours to figure out how to do that.

[Plebian]

or you could, you know, just cast it yourself and have the DC be about 16 or higher. which, at level 3, means you're going to screw over anything in the area much more than half the time.

In which case, you are not an Artificer, and therefore, not relevant to this conversation.

except the original response you quoted was talking about how even low-level casters could overpower encounters. Artificers weren't even involved in that one, they were just mentioned higher up on the page.

but obviously, to you, that means the entire page is about Artificers.


also PhoneLobster you're getting really mad about a game maybe you should check the part where I mentioned liking the new Essentials Warlord build before everyone else went back to the wizard derail. so, hey, I'll follow along with that. of course if you actually recognized that then you might actually have to attribute blame to other people equally and we don't want you acting rational!

[Juton]

Plebian, you write like someone who is intentionally trying to mask their writing style. Stop it, it's an eyesore.