How much of the anti-4E sentiment is actually justified?

[tzor]

THEY SELL PLAYING CARDS WITH YOUR POWERS ON THEM SO THAT YOU CAN CREATE A MACRO BAR FOR YOUR CHARACTER.

PLAYING CARDS WITH SPELLS ON THEM WERE MADE BACK IN 2E BY T$R.


There, I can shout too. No, really, that's old rehashed crap. It's not the number of the beast or the sign of the end of the gaming world.

[sabs]

Torg was a great game with a playing card component.

What's wrong is the collectible card game power cards

[TheFlatline]

Torg was a great game with a playing card component.

What's wrong is the collectible card game power cards

That's a recent development too...

And yes, I know that there's spell cards in AD&D, but those popped once a day and you were done. Not only that, but most of the time you didn't need cards to tell the difference between fireball & cone of cold. In 4th ed, for a lot of powers (especially fighter powers), you *have* to have constant references to the actual power, because the difference between "1W + move opponent back one square" and "1W and take a 5 foot step" is pretty minor.

As I said, the goals of 4th are okay so long as you're fine with abandoning most of what makes D&D what it is. Call it something other than D&D and you're not piling 30 years of product/genre conventions onto your expectations and then saying "fuck you" to all of them.

It also makes the blatant cribbing of video games in game setup and execution a little more palatable. Not like, alot... since a lot of little things screamed "we copied this and didn't put much though into it because we thought it was cool", but at least it wouldn't be the developer version of teabagging the product line.

[TheFlatline]

THEY SELL PLAYING CARDS WITH YOUR POWERS ON THEM SO THAT YOU CAN CREATE A MACRO BAR FOR YOUR CHARACTER.

PLAYING CARDS WITH SPELLS ON THEM WERE MADE BACK IN 2E BY T$R.


There, I can shout too. No, really, that's old rehashed crap. It's not the number of the beast or the sign of the end of the gaming world.

I wasn't using this as a general attack on 4th ed, my point was that WOTC designed an aspect of their game to mimic the UI of MMOs, in reply to the OP saying that 2nd and 3rd are more video-game-esque than 4th is.

Plus, the OP says that treasure distribution and shit was video-game-like in AD&D and 3rd. Which is amusing, because it's the games that cribbed D&D, not the other way around like the power macro bar.

[PhoneLobster]

It didn't need to be a clear improvement. I would have LIKED it to be, but just close enough would have been acceptable. Look at Pathfinder, IT isn't a clear improvement, if anything its a small step back. But clearly from its success LESS of a step back.

4E's biggest problem was not in its failed mechanics, even its horrific PR, it was in dumping the baby out with the bathwater. Designers took things that should never have been removed from the game, put them into the too hard basket and threw the entire basket out. The resulting classes definitely were narrow, dull and flat out boring. 4E lost me when I read through the listings of powers in the PH and realized how incredibly fucking dull and uniform every last fucking one of them was.

And that is STILL where it is losing me, the other day I was handed pregen 4E character sheets, I made some vague attempt to try and look at the abilities and determine what they did and which character I would want, and seriously my eyes glazed over and I lost all god damn interest.

There is just something about those powers... I'm guessing its absofuckinglutely bad writing[/b] because seriously, I will sit down with games I am utterly unfamiliar with, browse some rules text and makes some guess and choices no problem all the damn time. The fact that 4E alienates me at that stage means there is seriously something wrong with it.

[Plebian]

actually every edition has been a clear improvement over the last, at least from my experience starting towards the end of AD&D, it's just that every new edition there have been quite a few people extremely invested in the last edition who think way too highly of it and decry the new for being new and ruining D&D and killing the game forever

oh and the internet is great at making hubs where a couple dozen people get together and convince themselves that because they agree obviously they represent the majority of the society they live in

[sabs]

I'm really not sure 4E really is a clear improvement over 3E. It more feels like they tried to fix the wrong parts of 3E and learned the wrong lessons.

[Finkin]

actually every edition has been a clear improvement over the last, at least from my experience starting towards the end of AD&D, it's just that every new edition there have been quite a few people extremely invested in the last edition who think way too highly of it and decry the new for being new and ruining D&D and killing the game forever

oh and the internet is great at making hubs where a couple dozen people get together and convince themselves that because they agree obviously they represent the majority of the society they live in

Again I say "Hey 4rry, just look at what happened. Now STFU."

Declining sales figures, hitting the brakes on the production schedule, outright cancellation of some product lines, hiring and firing writers and marketing people so quickly that they don't even bother to change the name on the door anymore...you tell me how successful D&D 4E has been so far?

[Kaelik]

actually every edition has been a clear improvement over the last, at least from my experience starting towards the end of AD&D, it's just that every new edition there have been quite a few people extremely invested in the last edition who think way too highly of it and decry the new for being new and ruining D&D and killing the game forever

oh and the internet is great at making hubs where a couple dozen people get together and convince themselves that because they agree obviously they represent the majority of the society they live in

Again I say "Hey 4rry, just look at what happened. Now STFU."

Declining sales figures, hitting the brakes on the production schedule, outright cancellation of some product lines, hiring and firing writers and marketing people so quickly that they don't even bother to change the name on the door anymore...you tell me how successful D&D 4E has been so far?

Problem...

As we discovered on this forum, 4rries can just straight up declare 4e a great financial success, despite reality.

I mean, it can straight up happen that they will tell you hundreds of thousands is more than a million.

[PhoneLobster]

Again I say "Hey 4rry, just look at what happened. Now STFU."

... pretty much.

Like the gaming club I am involved in, which I was complaining about in the bait and switch thread.

4E has killed adult D&D gaming at the club. There are plenty of adult gamers who USED to play 3E D&D... and about 3 who currently play 4E and most of them just GM for groups of 10 year old boys who don't know any better. (worse the sudden influx of 10 year old boys swelling their numbers from 3 to about 12... I just discovered is actually NOT the recruiting powas of 4E... apparently the local GW kiddie war gaming hangout just closed it's doors and they literally have nothing else to play)

And 4E has fucking struggled HARD in this community to create stable repeat interest from adult gamers. Every god damn bullshit WOTC released promotional "introduction to 4E/Essentials/WTF" that has been released has seen at least some attempt by the 4rries to run it at the club event.

SOMETIMES they get absolute minimum numbers of adult players. Maybe they have a nice time, I dunno. What I do know none of those players come back for a second helping of 4E.

4E has had it's chance, over a period of YEARS, in a community full of actual dedicated gamers, many with a significant interest or background in D&D and it cannot get a foothold.

Worse this time period has seen CRASHING numbers of D&D players in this group and the local gaming community in general. You talk to any damn gamer about D&D locally and the number one thing you hear from the vast majority is...

"Oh D&D, it's great, yeah I used to play it all the time, it's been ages though, back when I played a lot it was still 3rd edition. D&D Essentials? LOL, wtf is that? I haven't even heard of it!"

So yeah seriously any 4rrie telling me its MY fault I don't like 4E and I am some sort of deluded minority, seriously, look at WTF is actually happening to my hobby, and the actual success and impact of 4E. IT IS BAD NEWS.

I am right, you are wrong, neener neener neener and yet... I told you so is somewhat unsatisfying when one of my favourite hobbies is CRASHING because no one wants to play your 4E shit that 4rrie fan boys are STILL trying to shove down our throats after YEARS of being surprised when we don't come back begging for more after their LAST attempt at it.

[K]

The main problem with 4e is that it's not a new edition of DnD. It has so little in common with previous editions that it's not viable as an edition.

It's basically a new fantasy RPG that has been marketed as a game we know and love. Like any first edition game, it has a bunch of problems.

The fact that it fails in all of it's stated design goals AND all of it's design goals are fundamentally wrong is entirely separate from people's gut reaction to the actions of a counterfeiter.

Bait and switch marketing is not a way to build or even maintain a franchise.

[Kaelik]

The main problem with 4e is that it's not a new edition of DnD. It has so little in common with previous editions that it's not viable as an edition.

It's basically a new fantasy RPG that has been marketed as a game we know and love. Like any first edition game, it has a bunch of problems.

The fact that it fails in all of it's stated design goals AND all of it's design goals are fundamentally wrong is entirely separate from people's gut reaction to the actions of a counterfeiter.

Bait and switch marketing is not a way to build or even maintain a franchise.

I was thinking about this earlier. Take any story of what happened in any D&D game, and talk about it. Now try to play the exact same thing in 2e, or 3e (I've never played 1e) you can do it. It might sound absurd to convert a 3e fight that involves a Wizard casting a save or die, because 2e Dragons would just auto make all saves, but whatever, you could actually tell the same story.

Not so 4e, you literally can't tell any story the same way, not a single one, because the moment the Wizard or Cleric casts a non combat spell, the story breaks in half.

The moment anyone does anything besides attack a monster, 4e can't mimic that at all.

[Data Vampire]

As we discovered on this forum, 4rries can just straight up declare 4e a great financial success, despite reality.

Titanium Dragon's argument was incredulously stupid, but to transfer that to all that like 4E is like saying that [insert race] are [insert stereotype] because you found one that was.

I mean, it can straight up happen that they will tell you hundreds of thousands is more than a million.

he was actually arguing that thousands is sounded larger than millions not that it actually was. It's dumb enough that I cannot see why you need to beat that poor defenseless strawman in the place of Titanium Dragon.

[Kaelik]

Titanium Dragon's argument was incredulously stupid, but to transfer that to all that like 4E is like saying that [insert race] are [insert stereotype] because you found one that was.

You might notice I said "can" not "will" or "all will." He is claiming an argument strategy, and I am pointing out the possible response, which we have even seen.

he was actually arguing that is sounded larger not that it actually was. It's dumb enough that I cannot see why you need to beat that poor defenseless strawman in the place of Titanium Dragon.

Probably because it's been a year and a half, and I'm not going to search for his posts.

[Data Vampire]

Titanium Dragon's argument was incredulously stupid, but to transfer that to all that like 4E is like saying that [insert race] are [insert stereotype] because you found one that was.

You might notice I said "can" not "will" or "all will." He is claiming an argument strategy, and I am pointing out the possible response, which we have even seen.

I mean, it can straight up happen that they will tell you hundreds of thousands is more than a million.

[Plebian]

it's really funny how everyone loves to prove my point about echo chambers by continuing to make claims about 4e killing D&D and then providing anecdotal evidence at best

so as for declining sales, got any numbers besides the notorious "well some guy totally said he had insider knowledge" because no one I have ever talked to does but they love to try and imply that D&D is failing in sales even without numbers

also loooooooooool at being unable to tell a story because of the mechanics of 4e, that shit is hilarious. you honestly think mechanics influence fluff to that degree?

oh.... oh dear, you're saying that 4e is bad because previous edition wizards could cast Negate Plot and 'break' the story... oh my, and then you even say that 4e can't do anything out of combat. that, friend, is player and/or DM failing, not system failing.

stuff like this is great; people claim 4e is incapable of doing something, even though it's not, because 4e doesn't do it the literal exact same as 3e. even though 4e handles skills the exact same way out-of-combat and the only real difference out-of-combat is the limitation on casters ability to bend reality to their whim

oh and by the way, 4e has more in common with 3e than 3e did with AD&D so I really have no clue what you're talking about, K

they use the exact same d20 system, the same feat system, a very similar skill system, powers are just a reworking of combat but there were already powers for many classes that you could only use when the timers were up... but somehow, in your world, it's nothing like 3e

[Kaelik]

Titanium Dragon's argument was incredulously stupid, but to transfer that to all that like 4E is like saying that [insert race] are [insert stereotype] because you found one that was.

You might notice I said "can" not "will" or "all will." He is claiming an argument strategy, and I am pointing out the possible response, which we have even seen.

I mean, it can straight up happen that they will tell you hundreds of thousands is more than a million.

Good, now you can learn to read the fourth word of the sentence. Which is can.

it's really funny how everyone loves to prove my point about echo chambers by continuing to make claims about 4e killing D&D and then providing anecdotal evidence at best

so as for declining sales, got any numbers besides the notorious "well some guy totally said he had insider knowledge" because no one I have ever talked to does but they love to try and imply that D&D is failing in sales even without numbers

See, 4rry telling us 4e is doing great financially.

also loooooooooool at being unable to tell a story because of the mechanics of 4e, that shit is hilarious. you honestly think mechanics influence fluff to that degree?

They influence story. See, if at some point, someone casts Wall of Stone to seal off a tunnel, so that everyone runs out safely, that is an event in the story, an event that is in fact not replicable in 4e, and so the story shuts down.

oh.... oh dear, you're saying that 4e is bad because previous edition wizards could cast Negate Plot and 'break' the story... oh my, and then you even say that 4e can't do anything out of combat. that, friend, is player and/or DM failing, not system failing.

No, we actually said it is not D&D because it can't be used to tell the same stories that D&D could tell for the last 30 years.

Nor did I say that 4e can't do anything out of combat, surely they can talk, or pick up a torch, what I said is that as soon as a 2e or 3e wizard casts a non combat spell, that cannot be replicated in 4e, because 4e doesn't have even a version of any of most of these effects that is even remotely the same as the 2e and 3e spells.

And no, Wall of Stone, Zone of Truth, Detect Thoughts, Blindsight, Invisibility, Phantom Steed are nore Plot breaking.

[Finkin]

it's really funny how everyone loves to prove my point about echo chambers by continuing to make claims about 4e killing D&D and then providing anecdotal evidence at best

so as for declining sales, got any numbers besides the notorious "well some guy totally said he had insider knowledge" because no one I have ever talked to does but they love to try and imply that D&D is failing in sales even without numbers

My biggest argument lies in the fact that you are here, and others like you are on every other RPG-related messageboard on the internet, attempting to shout down any and all criticism of 4E. "Hey 4rry, just look at what happened. Now STFU."

You can just go look over the last few quarterly reports from ICv2. Or maybe take a peek at TDMonthly. Or you can look at the data provided by the few companies that distribute books for Hasbro.

Alternatively you could just Google something along the lines of Hasbro declining sales and click on the myriad stories there that read like:

Hasbro Profit down 15%

Hasbro stock has dropped 18% since May 2007 (wait, when did they announce 4E again?)


Or you could look into this and see that 3rd party publishers are fleeing 4E like sensible people are fleeing Libya.

Or you could just open your eyes and look at what's been going on over at WotC and admit to yourself that 4E is being put on life support as they scramble to put together something new to sell.

[PhoneLobster]

it's really funny how everyone loves to prove my point about echo chambers by continuing to make claims about 4e killing D&D and then providing anecdotal evidence at best

Sorry, but back when there WAS presentation of actual reliably sourced sales figures, right from the mouth of WOTC no less, 4E fans really DID tell us that 100s of thousands was bigger than millions. No really. That did happen, Kaelik is not making it up. Really. But anecdotal evidence like my story IS important. Because within the gaming community that is being killed off BY 4E, the 4E fans... don't notice it happening, certainly they don't understand it, and their plan to fix it? Push 4E harder!

This is a microcosm of the macro picture. 4E fanboyism and it's effect on gaming is a great big fractal structure of assess inside other asses. WOTC itself tells us that 4E has reached, and is used by, a FRACTION of the gamers that 3E reached, WOTC itself tells us they have made a fraction of the sales, and it's actually pretty easy to go out and count the amount of 3rd party support and the effect of 4E on the 3rd party market and RPG market IN GENERAL, why? Because the downturn in those fields was so utterly TITANIC you don't even NEED a formal industry survey, because there pretty much isn't even an industry anymore in comparison to the 3E era. The solution on the large scale? The fanboys push 4E even harder. It isn't working, sorry, but really, it isn't and that's the best proof and justification of criticism of 4E. No one wants it, no one continues to want it, many people who tried it, drop it like a hot potatoe, no one outside of WOTC is publishing for it, WOTC is selling a fraction of the product to a fraction of the people, no amount of your fanboyism can change that.

also loooooooooool at being unable to tell a story because of the mechanics of 4e, that shit is hilarious. you honestly think mechanics influence fluff to that degree?

Hell yes. Don't believe me?

Simple question then. If mechanics DON'T very significantly influence "fluff" in an RPG game...

... then WTF else are they even there for?

No really. If you don't think mechanics influence fluff... what DO you think they do?

Seriously you want to have your opinion about 4E respected, start by not spouting such incredibly jaw dropping stupidity as to suggest for a second that mechanics do not significantly effect fluff.

oh.... oh dear, you're saying that 4e is bad because previous edition wizards could cast Negate Plot and 'break' the story...

Oh look, someone who hates players having a significant effect on story fluff, with formal mechanics rather than a game of mother may I with the DM. To the point that he is basically calling every non-combat spell in 3E "Negate Plot". And he is a 4E fan. Hm. Surprised? Anyone?


Here is another angle on 4E for you. In the 3rd edition era we had the "Power Gamers" who knew the rules and understood mechanics and had an agenda of using them to improve game play. And we had the "Basket Weavers" who told us the GM is god and fuck player input, screw the rules, rules don't matter man!, Wizards are too good! The players are ruining my precious plot! etc...

4E is the result of pandering to the basket weavers. It gave them what they asked for and spat in the face of the rules and game play savy "Power Gamers". Look at the general nature of 4E, utterly nerfed "plot" effecting powers, everything outside of stabbing things left in the hands of a power tripping mother may I DM, even the stabbing things blandified and kicked in the nuts, monsters are great big boring obstacles that take freaking forever to kill while the DM wanks over them, all those pesky wizards and their rather interesting and desirable balance point with them nerfed into oblivion.

4E isn't just about "grognards" vs the hip modernists. It's about the "fuck the rules I want GM fiat!" basketweavers getting almost everything they wanted and the "Power gamers", the ones who actually know any fucking thing about RPGs and their design and use getting kicked in the nuts.

And that strategy didn't work, because the basket weavers are fucking idiots. They CAN'T design games, they DON'T know what they really want and they AREN'T a significant player base of the game.

Then WOTC also kicked the basket weavers in the nuts with the whole MMO bullshit. And that hardly helped.

[Koumei]

I was thinking about this earlier. Take any story of what happened in any D&D game, and talk about it. Now try to play the exact same thing in 2e, or 3e (I've never played 1e) you can do it. It might sound absurd to convert a 3e fight that involves a Wizard casting a save or die, because 2e Dragons would just auto make all saves, but whatever, you could actually tell the same story.

Not so 4e, you literally can't tell any story the same way, not a single one, because the moment the Wizard or Cleric casts a non combat spell, the story breaks in half.

The moment anyone does anything besides attack a monster, 4e can't mimic that at all.

Let's take something simple. The party need to read the OMNOMNOMicon sealed inside Baron Loam's library, so that they can get the location (the specific Abyssal layer) of the Demon King so as to stab him in the face and take his stuff.

Baron Loam is a dick, and says "Not unless you go and kill all the goblins in Saffron-Waldon over thar." Guessing the PCs think this is a stupid thing that is beneath them, he sets guards around the library, instructed to shoot fire arrows inside and burn it down if the party try any tricks to get in.

In 3E they could:

Do the dumb slaughter
Use magic to disguise a member as him, go in and get it/tell them to stand down
Scry and Teleport inside
Use magic or a summoned succubus to convince him to let them have their way
Use magic or a summoned succubus to convince them to ignore his orders
Turn invisible
Cast spells that rapidly knock the guards out (or kill them or whatever), from the shadows, so they can wander on in
Get one character to grease up, slide their entire body inside someone else's rectum and do that as a performance that impresses the Baron so much he lets them in anyway

In 4E they could:

Not even kill the guards in a quick enough time to stop them setting the library on fire, so they have to go over Thar to kill all the goblins.

I bet someone could make a whole book full of one-page scenarios where in 3E (or previous) the party have half a dozen obvious options, and in 4E it's "they have to go and kill the things like the MC told them to. Bring me ten Dire Spider Heads."

[Plebian]

it's really funny how everyone loves to prove my point about echo chambers by continuing to make claims about 4e killing D&D and then providing anecdotal evidence at best

so as for declining sales, got any numbers besides the notorious "well some guy totally said he had insider knowledge" because no one I have ever talked to does but they love to try and imply that D&D is failing in sales even without numbers

See, 4rry telling us 4e is doing great financially.

are you stupid because that's not the context of those sentences at all

They influence story. See, if at some point, someone casts Wall of Stone to seal off a tunnel, so that everyone runs out safely, that is an event in the story, an event that is in fact not replicable in 4e, and so the story shuts down.

it's only not possible if you're one of those if-it's-not-in-the-rules-it's-not-possible types, in which case I ask you how any tabletop character is alive because breathing isn't in the rules

No, we actually said it is not D&D because it can't be used to tell the same stories that D&D could tell for the last 30 years.

Nor did I say that 4e can't do anything out of combat, surely they can talk, or pick up a torch, what I said is that as soon as a 2e or 3e wizard casts a non combat spell, that cannot be replicated in 4e, because 4e doesn't have even a version of any of most of these effects that is even remotely the same as the 2e and 3e spells.

And no, Wall of Stone, Zone of Truth, Detect Thoughts, Blindsight, Invisibility, Phantom Steed are nore Plot breaking.

actually I could easily adapt any 3e module to 4e; playing in a 4e Pathfinder game right now and nothing's been impossible

also yeah, those spells really are plot breaking unless the DM plans around them and no DM ever is capable of planning for every spell a wizard has at his disposal; removing the wizard's spell-for-every-situation aspect was a brilliant move and should've been done earlier

[Plebian]

I was thinking about this earlier. Take any story of what happened in any D&D game, and talk about it. Now try to play the exact same thing in 2e, or 3e (I've never played 1e) you can do it. It might sound absurd to convert a 3e fight that involves a Wizard casting a save or die, because 2e Dragons would just auto make all saves, but whatever, you could actually tell the same story.

Not so 4e, you literally can't tell any story the same way, not a single one, because the moment the Wizard or Cleric casts a non combat spell, the story breaks in half.

The moment anyone does anything besides attack a monster, 4e can't mimic that at all.

Let's take something simple. The party need to read the OMNOMNOMicon sealed inside Baron Loam's library, so that they can get the location (the specific Abyssal layer) of the Demon King so as to stab him in the face and take his stuff.

Baron Loam is a dick, and says "Not unless you go and kill all the goblins in Saffron-Waldon over thar." Guessing the PCs think this is a stupid thing that is beneath them, he sets guards around the library, instructed to shoot fire arrows inside and burn it down if the party try any tricks to get in.

In 3E they could:

Do the dumb slaughter
Use magic to disguise a member as him, go in and get it/tell them to stand down
Scry and Teleport inside
Use magic or a summoned succubus to convince him to let them have their way
Use magic or a summoned succubus to convince them to ignore his orders
Turn invisible
Cast spells that rapidly knock the guards out (or kill them or whatever), from the shadows, so they can wander on in
Get one character to grease up, slide their entire body inside someone else's rectum and do that as a performance that impresses the Baron so much he lets them in anyway

In 4E they could:

Not even kill the guards in a quick enough time to stop them setting the library on fire, so they have to go over Thar to kill all the goblins.

I bet someone could make a whole book full of one-page scenarios where in 3E (or previous) the party have half a dozen obvious options, and in 4E it's "they have to go and kill the things like the MC told them to. Bring me ten Dire Spider Heads."

this kind of argument is hilarious because you purposefully ignore anything else possible in 4e because you dislike it

how does being intellectually dishonest feel

I bet it feels like disappointment

[Kaelik]

Honestly, I don't even mean situations, and number of options, I mean just take a 2e action report, and covert it to 3e, it mostly works. Now try to convert it to 4e, it fails miserably.

Or, Red Hand of Doom. That's popular. So things happen, and you have a fight with goblins, then you do some stuff, and blah blah, eventually, you assault a keep, and then you assault a different keep on an island in the middle of a swamp lake.

Now take your report, and try to actually convert that to 4e, it won't happen.

For example, Frank and Ks write up, it literally involves a Chimera zombie before they even assault the second keep, so they break the 3e-4e conversion right the fuck there.

Likewise, in one time I saw, the Druid cast water breathing on everyone and they walked under the lake. Oh shit, 4e can't do that.

There's this one part where you have to break the bridge. Man are there tons of 3e ways to do that, none of which 4e can emulate other than make attack actions.

[Koumei]

this kind of argument is hilarious because you purposefully ignore anything else possible in 4e because you dislike it

how does being intellectually dishonest feel

I bet it feels like disappointment

No, disappointment would be what your mother felt upon giving birth to you and realising a $2 condom could have prevented that.

And I can't say for Intellectual Dishonesty - I'm being serious here. Unless I'm missing something, in which case feel free to point out all those other options the players have, like burrowing (can they do that? Shit, there's another option the 3E group had), or summoning a rainstorm to stop the fire arrows from being lit (I'll mark that as another one on the 3E list), or whatever.

I'd love to hear that I'm wrong, and that I missed a section in the book and you actually do have all these cool options. If you suggest anything involving "Do a Skill Challenge Herp de Derp" then I will say mean things to and about you. On the Internet.

[Kaelik]

it's only not possible if you're one of those if-it's-not-in-the-rules-it's-not-possible types, in which case I ask you how any tabletop character is alive because breathing isn't in the rules

So is wall of stone plot breaking or not? Are you telling me that if I was playing 4e that I could just say "I want summon a wall of stone to block this passage" and you think the DM would ever let that occur?

Yes, if it's not in the rules, it can't happen, because the rules define what can happen. If I wanted to play freeform, I would, and that would be a better game than 4e for telling stories, but it would also not be 4e.

actually I could easily adapt any 3e module to 4e; playing in a 4e Pathfinder game right now and nothing's been impossible

You could adapt any 3e module to 4e, and replace all the situations in which "PCs could do lots of things" to "PCs punch things in the face."

But that is not what I said. What I said is that if you take, for example, City of the Spider Queen after action reports from players, about what happened, you could not mimic those reports in 4e, because almost every time it comes to the point of "perform action X that is not specifically killing a monster" 4e cannot duplicate the action that the PCs do take.

And no, Wall of Stone, Zone of Truth, Detect Thoughts, Blindsight, Invisibility, Phantom Steed are not Plot breaking.

also yeah, those spells really are plot breaking unless the DM plans around them

WOW! Thank you for making the most compelling case for your own stupidity that I have ever seen. I rest my case.