The Pursuit of Equality and Balance in Game Design

[Username17]

That is not in fact true.

People might have known about less balance issues because of a lack of internet webforums, but they were totally there.

-Username17

But fighters were better, right?

Yes. The real losers of the edition were Thieves.

The fact that you could break the game with a beat stick doesn't mean that the game was more balanced. It just means that there was a different list of winners and losers.

-Username17

[Novembermike]

And thus are trap options in literally every single setting they are not useful in.

Fighters are optimal inside entire world is an AMF. That doesn't mean they aren't a trap in every non entire world is an AMF game.

This displays a fundamental misunderstanding of GURPS.

Don't you know? In GURPS all the point accounting is completely meaningless, because the MC is supposed to omnisciently tailor all possible opposition to th players to be precisely calibrated to their specific capabilities no matter how general or obscure they happen to be. Everything is balanced all the time because of the Oberoni Postulate.

-Username17

You don't have to tailor anything. Make sure the players know the setting and you'll be fine. If you're doing a wild west game then the players should probably know things like how to ride a horse, shoot a gun and actually that's about it for real requirements. They might also find things like being a priest, knowing how to gamble, good leadership skills, the ability to jump high or run fast useful, but they'd need to actually make use of these abilities to accomplish their goals. The ability to operate normally in a free fall or zero g environment, develop computer programs, perform an exorcism or drop heavy objects accurately while flying probably wouldn't be recommended. Something like the history of Northern Manchuria or Shipbuilding would be discouraged since, while applicable to the broad setting it doesn't actually fit into the drama.

None of that is about tailoring the experience though. If you are running that Wild West Adventure you should be able to do it with a group of law men hunting down a criminal, prospectors looking for gold or a group of misfits trying to find a dead friend's son. A well built party will have some ability to act in both social and combat situations, but they might use intimidation, bribery, authority (religious or legal), subterfuge or a number of other tacks for the social and the combat will depend on the party but could range from trained soldiers able to drop a man from a quarter mile away to brawlers who turn to their fists after they're caught cheating at poker. The actual skills the players use will change depending on how they work the story and a good DM should allow the players to do what they want in general.

[Murtak]

Fighters actually had saving throws, but that's about it. Spells were more powerful than in 3E and bullshit "i win" effects were everywhere. Mostly in the shape of spells. I guess fighters where more powerful in that there was a greater percentage of high-level monsters they could actually kill, or at least inconvinience. But if anything I'd say they were less powerful than a wizard compared to 3E.

[Roy]

I messed up some system mastery stuff for a system I've admitted I'm not fond of and haven't played in five years, you mess up the meaning of basic words and concepts and I'm the fuckwit?

You made a factual claim that was wrong. On the Internet.

Your sock puppet did too. Ray of Stupidity works just as well (read: not at all) in a Time Stop as Finger of Death.

Because you are so sad and pathetic, I will make your argument for you.

Time Stop + Delayed Blast Fireball spam = spell wears off, explosions go off, spells actually have an effect.

Time Stop + Shapechange (Beholder) + Forcecage (barred cell) + Gate (plane of fire, over head of target) = spell wears off, and target is now in an anti magic cone, trapped in a barred cell, and taking a lava bath.

Now you still have yet to demonstrate why pointing out effective combos in 3.5 is relevant. That is your next task.

Also, if the entire world is an AMF, the Fighter still gets slaughtered over and over and over, because enemy beatsticks automatically annihilate him.

[Username17]

You don't have to tailor anything. Make sure the players know the setting and you'll be fine. If you're doing a wild west game then the players should probably know things like how to ride a horse, shoot a gun and actually that's about it for real requirements. They might also find things like being a priest, knowing how to gamble, good leadership skills, the ability to jump high or run fast useful, but they'd need to actually make use of these abilities to accomplish their goals. The ability to operate normally in a free fall or zero g environment, develop computer programs, perform an exorcism or drop heavy objects accurately while flying probably wouldn't be recommended. Something like the history of Northern Manchuria or Shipbuilding would be discouraged since, while applicable to the broad setting it doesn't actually fit into the drama.

Wow. You are an idiot. By that logic every D&D character in very edition is balanced because they can all hold torches, talk in taverns, and carry treasure.

The fact that two characters can both exist in the same genre's stories doesn't mean that they are anything like balanced. In a Star Trek game, it would be pretty damn broken if on player got to be Kirk and another player got to be Sulu. And yet, that's exactly what GURPS delivers. People have a list of skills and the costs they paid for those skills have absolutely nothing to do with how useful those skills are in actual play, and relatively little to do with how good the character is at using those skills.

Sulu is a master fencer. This comes up like twice, because people don't fight every episode and when they do it is mostly with hand phasers. Kirk is a master diplomat. This comes up every episode because there is talking in every fucking episode. And yet, in GURPS, Sulu paid more points for his fencing because fencing is a difficult skill to pick up in the 23rd century, and Kirk paid less for his Diplomacy, because everyone can talk. Kirk gets to be the star of the entire show on less points than it cost Sulu to have a minor flavor ability that was kind of interesting a few times.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

Kaelik I can't follow your absurd suggestion. I *can't* know what I'm going to fight? Why the fuck wouldn't I have a rough idea (at high level) of what I'm getting myself into when I go adventuring. I mean at that point I and any other sane character would spend time trying to find out what they are going to encounter.

I think what you mean is that I won't know everything I'll ever be likely to encounter ever. And that is true, but if I'm looking to go to beat the Fire king of Fire mountain I'd believe fire creatures of sorts will be involved. If I'm going Dragon hunting I'll probably be fighting Dragons. Demons when demon hunting. How won't I ever know what I'll be facing especially when I'll likely have the means to put it together.

I may not know *which* type of undead the Necrolord of Nabudice may send at me but I'm pretty sure they'll be undead.

Because those aren't real high level adventures. Yes, you can declare "I am hunting Rabbits" and you might end up knowing what you are facing, but that's what you do in your off time. Any high level plot is going to involve something besides you deciding what color monster you want to destroy.

If you are going "Demon Hunting" then you a) Have no idea what Demons you will run into, and so can't prepare, and b) Are not probably not facing a real encounter. On the other hand if you are going to attack Jim the Balor for a reason, IE he is the ruler of a country, so you know where he is, then you are facing Jim the Balor, and Kim the Balor, and sixteen Vrocks, and his Wizard and Cleric of Hextor henchies, and several hundred other things you know nothing about.

If you decide to go Dragon hunting, you can go kill a pushover Dragon of under your level, or you can attempt to hunt down Sargoth the mighty, who has an entire Kobold village of minions, and casts spells as an 8th level Sorcerer, and this includes Mindblank, and Sheltered Vitality, so no prep work you do is going to make him a pushover.

TL;DR If you don't even know what high level adventure is like, why the fuck do you keep insisting on having an opinion about it?

[MGuy]

Kaelik I'm not sure how fighting Necrolords, demons, and dragons aren't high level adventures for you. I actually don't know how going after a Balor/pitfied/dragon/necrolord aren't high level. Since I can't begin to understand your lack of in-character research or preparation I can't argue with you. I can't understand your reasoning here at all. By your logic I can't prepare fire resistance when going up against the Firelord of Fire mountain because he might have ANYTHING there.

[BearsAreBrown]

Fighting a high level monster is not the same thing as going on a high level adventure. How is that hard to understand? An adventure involves a plot and purpose while a fight is a fight. If the plot of the adventure is "gladiatorial fight: round 6 'PCs vs Balor'" then it's not high level. If the plot of the adventure is "invade the nation of Bator-astan, which houses a guerrilla force of balors and vrocks in the mountains" then you're probably on a high level adventure.

High CR creatures doesn't necessarily make for high level adventures.

[MGuy]

Mostly because I said encounter not adventure.

Edit: In case the actual quote is needed...

On the other hand I do not agree that leaning on the higher tiers is any better for the game. When a few classes can over exploit the entirety of the engine and win a given encounter 100% of the time by itself I'd have to say that something is wrong with that too.

[BearsAreBrown]

In that case Kaelik's point still stands. You don't know exactly what you'll fight and unless you play in fantasy land where Wizards cast spontaneously from their whole list or the DM takes Divinations like a bitch then you won't be trivializing encounters.

[Username17]

There are many encounters that have no chance of "defeating" the PCs. If you encounter a locked door or a trapped chest, you aren't going to lose. The encounter may use up time or resources, but the players are 100% going to "win".

What is wrong with that?

-Username17

[MGuy]

I still don't see why you can't do research about your enemy. No matter who the BBEG is I'm most likely going to do some kind of research about it. Whether it be through Divinations, Blue's Clues or whatever I'm most likely going to know what I'm getting into if I even care about what I fight. At high level I'm able to and will fit myself for a given enemy unless every enemy I ever fight ever cannot be found out about before I fight.

Lets say you're not waltzing into the enemy territory. Then even in more mundane places I should be able to guess about the type of encounter I'm going to be having. The planes are all color coded so that you know what's probably there if you're a plane hopper. If I've found a BBEG's stronghold I'd reasonably try and get some kind of reconnaissance done before storming it. Unless I'm encountering random ass shit on every adventure I should reasonably be able to DO something to find out WHAT I'm going to fight. If I can't what is the point of even trying to use my divinations, gathering info, or having the ability to research ANYTHING?

[Username17]

No matter who the BBEG is I'm most likely going to do some kind of research about it. Whether it be through Divinations, Blue's Clues or whatever I'm most likely going to know what I'm getting into if I even care about what I fight.

Even granting that, you said 100%. "Most likely" is not "100%".

-Username17

[MGuy]

That is true. Ok then its not 100%.

[violence in the media]

I still don't see why you can't do research about your enemy. No matter who the BBEG is I'm most likely going to do some kind of research about it. Whether it be through Divinations, Blue's Clues or whatever I'm most likely going to know what I'm getting into if I even care about what I fight. At high level I'm able to and will fit myself for a given enemy unless every enemy I ever fight ever cannot be found out about before I fight.

Lets say you're not waltzing into the enemy territory. Then even in more mundane places I should be able to guess about the type of encounter I'm going to be having. The planes are all color coded so that you know what's probably there if you're a plane hopper. If I've found a BBEG's stronghold I'd reasonably try and get some kind of reconnaissance done before storming it. Unless I'm encountering random ass shit on every adventure I should reasonably be able to DO something to find out WHAT I'm going to fight. If I can't what is the point of even trying to use my divinations, gathering info, or having the ability to research ANYTHING?

I think the issue is that not all encounters that you are going to have in an adventure are necessarily related to that adventure, or to the BBEG of that adventure. So, you've got the Graveyard King as your enemy, and you know he's going to have zombies, ghouls, wights, and a wraith or two. So you rationally prep for that. What you don't know is if you're going to get ambushed by gnoll bandits in the GK's employ, stumble into a patch of assassin vines, or run across wild wyverns on the way to his dread castle. Maybe the MC decides that the next adventure is going to focus on the dwarves trying to expand their kingdom into the lands ravaged by the Graveyard King and so you have a fight against a dwarf raiding party. Heck, maybe the dwarf party has some constructs with them.

Right there you've got a half-dozen different creature types, with different vulnerabilities, and you haven't even gotten into crazy shit like templates or even common things like orc+ogre teamups.

[Novembermike]

You don't have to tailor anything. Make sure the players know the setting and you'll be fine. If you're doing a wild west game then the players should probably know things like how to ride a horse, shoot a gun and actually that's about it for real requirements. They might also find things like being a priest, knowing how to gamble, good leadership skills, the ability to jump high or run fast useful, but they'd need to actually make use of these abilities to accomplish their goals. The ability to operate normally in a free fall or zero g environment, develop computer programs, perform an exorcism or drop heavy objects accurately while flying probably wouldn't be recommended. Something like the history of Northern Manchuria or Shipbuilding would be discouraged since, while applicable to the broad setting it doesn't actually fit into the drama.

Wow. You are an idiot. By that logic every D&D character in very edition is balanced because they can all hold torches, talk in taverns, and carry treasure.

The fact that two characters can both exist in the same genre's stories doesn't mean that they are anything like balanced. In a Star Trek game, it would be pretty damn broken if on player got to be Kirk and another player got to be Sulu. And yet, that's exactly what GURPS delivers. People have a list of skills and the costs they paid for those skills have absolutely nothing to do with how useful those skills are in actual play, and relatively little to do with how good the character is at using those skills.

Sulu is a master fencer. This comes up like twice, because people don't fight every episode and when they do it is mostly with hand phasers. Kirk is a master diplomat. This comes up every episode because there is talking in every fucking episode. And yet, in GURPS, Sulu paid more points for his fencing because fencing is a difficult skill to pick up in the 23rd century, and Kirk paid less for his Diplomacy, because everyone can talk. Kirk gets to be the star of the entire show on less points than it cost Sulu to have a minor flavor ability that was kind of interesting a few times.

-Username17

Well, first off there would be player and DM problems if there are parts of the characters that are not being utilized in the adventure (either the DM isn't giving the player a chance or the player is making characters that don't fit the setting). But let's take a look at Sulu and Kirk. Fencing is an average difficulty skill, which means that Sulu can take it at -1 for 1 point or at skill for 2 points, both of which could represent the kind of sports training Sulu has. Kirk, on the other hand, is supposed to be a master diplomat, which at hard is 4 points at skill, 8 points at +1 and +4 points per level after that. At the 100 point level, 8 points is a much larger investment than 1 point (order of magnitude style) so I'd hope he'd get some benefit from it that Sulu wouldn't get from fencing.

EDIT: As to the first part, I guess DnD doesn't fail at the sort of things that you barely need a set of rules for.

[Lago PARANOIA]

It doesn't matter how many points you sink into something, what matters is what kind of return you get on it. Diminishing returns can still be unbalanced in favor of the player if the game effect that is experiencing diminishing returns is Just That Good. How many mid-level D&D Wizards do you think would give up their weapon proficiencies for an extra spell slot? How many would give up all of the BAB for a +1 to spell DCs?

[Kaelik]

I still don't see why you can't do research about your enemy. No matter who the BBEG is I'm most likely going to do some kind of research about it. Whether it be through Divinations, Blue's Clues or whatever I'm most likely going to know what I'm getting into if I even care about what I fight. At high level I'm able to and will fit myself for a given enemy unless every enemy I ever fight ever cannot be found out about before I fight.

Once again, you can do those things, and most of them wil provide incomplete, and often incorrect information. And you will go into a fight, and you will lose sometimes. Because high level Wizards cannot beat encounters 100% of the time. They lose. If the Balor castle is designed by ECL to challenge a party of four, but basically be a free win for them (IE average out to EL = Party level) then it will kill the Wizard 40-50% of the time.

Seriously, why are you, someone who has never played at high level, so goddam intent on telling people who actually have whether a Wizard can easily win?

Lets say you're not waltzing into the enemy territory. Then even in more mundane places I should be able to guess about the type of encounter I'm going to be having. The planes are all color coded so that you know what's probably there if you're a plane hopper. If I've found a BBEG's stronghold I'd reasonably try and get some kind of reconnaissance done before storming it. Unless I'm encountering random ass shit on every adventure I should reasonably be able to DO something to find out WHAT I'm going to fight. If I can't what is the point of even trying to use my divinations, gathering info, or having the ability to research ANYTHING?

Great, you are on the Plane of Water, you know your enemies are likely to be some combination of Water Elementals, giant Fiendish Octupi, Water Genie hit squads, Giant Mind Eater Fish and their puddles of attack water, and Fish people of various stripes.

All of those people have different things you need to prepare for if you are going to prepare specifically for them, and the Fish people could literally be Fish people Wizards.

It doesn't matter if you know what sort of things you are likely to face, you will not know exactly what you are going to face, and so you will in fact lose some things. That is how the system works. Wizards do not score 100% on the same game test, they score 60-75% depending on the test and the build.

Now, as the person who does not understand high level play, how about you stop telling us about how it works.

[MGuy]

I still don't see why you can't do research about your enemy. No matter who the BBEG is I'm most likely going to do some kind of research about it. Whether it be through Divinations, Blue's Clues or whatever I'm most likely going to know what I'm getting into if I even care about what I fight. At high level I'm able to and will fit myself for a given enemy unless every enemy I ever fight ever cannot be found out about before I fight.

Lets say you're not waltzing into the enemy territory. Then even in more mundane places I should be able to guess about the type of encounter I'm going to be having. The planes are all color coded so that you know what's probably there if you're a plane hopper. If I've found a BBEG's stronghold I'd reasonably try and get some kind of reconnaissance done before storming it. Unless I'm encountering random ass shit on every adventure I should reasonably be able to DO something to find out WHAT I'm going to fight. If I can't what is the point of even trying to use my divinations, gathering info, or having the ability to research ANYTHING?

I think the issue is that not all encounters that you are going to have in an adventure are necessarily related to that adventure, or to the BBEG of that adventure. So, you've got the Graveyard King as your enemy, and you know he's going to have zombies, ghouls, wights, and a wraith or two. So you rationally prep for that. What you don't know is if you're going to get ambushed by gnoll bandits in the GK's employ, stumble into a patch of assassin vines, or run across wild wyverns on the way to his dread castle. Maybe the MC decides that the next adventure is going to focus on the dwarves trying to expand their kingdom into the lands ravaged by the Graveyard King and so you have a fight against a dwarf raiding party. Heck, maybe the dwarf party has some constructs with them.

Right there you've got a half-dozen different creature types, with different vulnerabilities, and you haven't even gotten into crazy shit like templates or even common things like orc+ogre teamups.

I accounted for this when I said:

I think what you mean is that I won't know everything I'll ever be likely to encounter ever. And that is true, but if I'm looking to go to beat the Fire king of Fire mountain I'd believe fire creatures of sorts will be involved. If I'm going Dragon hunting I'll probably be fighting Dragons. Demons when demon hunting. How won't I ever know what I'll be facing especially when I'll likely have the means to put it together.

In situations where the wizard has a reasonable idea of what's going on a few proper spell choices make the encounter a push over.

However the last few posts were more aimed at:

No, you can't know what you are going to fight. That's actually absurdly hard to do, and you will never do it. And no, even if you have a rough idea of what you are facing, that doesn't allow a Wizard to win with few issues.

Which is absurd. I can ignore Kaelik continuously suggesting I've never played a high level game for whatever reason but the idea that I *can't* know what I'm going to fight is absolute trash.

Now a high level wizard unprepared to face "anything" may reasonably lose against "stuff" that he has no idea he's going to face. If the wizard has a decent idea of what he's facing he can render himself practically immune to it. Out of his examples of water plane stuff the only thing I, as a wizard, would be worried about are the Water Genies and any full caster Fish people I might meet because without even really preparing something special I can seriously ignore Water Elementals, Fiendish Octupi, and Mind Eater Fish unless I *want* to kill them. And the only reason I worry about the Genies or other casters is because THEY are on my power level because THEY are casters.

[Novembermike]

It doesn't matter how many points you sink into something, what matters is what kind of return you get on it. Diminishing returns can still be unbalanced in favor of the player if the game effect that is experiencing diminishing returns is Just That Good. How many mid-level D&D Wizards do you think would give up their weapon proficiencies for an extra spell slot? How many would give up all of the BAB for a +1 to spell DCs?

This is very true in level based systems where everything is combat oriented (so there is one goal) and a long path to get combat power (so, for example, adding a level of fighter to a wizard doesn't really make the wizard that much stronger). It's possible to "break" GURPS by creating a half blind, mentally retarded (+x other disadvantages for more points) warrior who has all of his points in strength and weapon skills who can beat up any two normal characters at a similar point level, but he isn't actually going to be a good character to play as. He's going to do nothing until a fight breaks out and then he's going to make it end as quickly as possible.

Also, remember that in GURPS being at a higher point level doesn't make you that much more dangerous. It's fairly easy for a focused 50pt character to get into the ballpark where he's a significant threat to PCs just by giving him the appropriate weapon skills and decent equipment. It's not like DnD where a level 8 fighter can rip his way through infinity level 1 characters.

[Lago PARANOIA]

1) Level systems are actually a buffer against that scenario, since they can and do force some kind of minimal improvement across-the-board. Point systems tend to be a lot more vulnerable to lopsided character builds.

2) It's not just combat systems. Any game system which values some abilities more than others can seriously have a position where it's worth sacrificing some skill you will never use to add a marginal return on one you will. Again, see Star Trek. Diplomacy and command skill is so huge in that game that trading off your ability to walk, speak, and control your bowels for a +1 bonus to those skills is a good trade if there's no other way to increase it. Stating that this problem is just with combat systems and not others is just not true.

Also, remember that in GURPS being at a higher point level doesn't make you that much more dangerous.

WTF does that have to do with intra-party balance?

[Kaelik]

Which is absurd. I can ignore Kaelik continuously suggesting I've never played a high level game for whatever reason but the idea that I *can't* know what I'm going to fight is absolute trash.

MGuy, you specifically have stated on numerous occasions (like every time high powered D&D comes up) that you have never played high powered high level D&D. You say this all the time.

And Once again, no one is saying you can't know what you are facing. You just can't know against most of the big things, and you won't know against most of the little things.

If the wizard has a decent idea of what he's facing he can render himself practically immune to it.

This is 100% false, and you are dumb as shit if you think that is true.

Out of his examples of water plane stuff the only thing I, as a wizard, would be worried about are the Water Genies and any full caster Fish people I might meet because without even really preparing something special I can seriously ignore Water Elementals, Fiendish Octupi, and Mind Eater Fish unless I *want* to kill them.

No you can't. You can't ignore Aboleths, they will kick your face. You can't ignore Water ELementals, they will eat you, you can't ignore Fiendish Octupi, they will grapple and eat you.

[Plebian]

If the wizard has a decent idea of what he's facing he can render himself practically immune to it.

This is 100% false, and you are dumb as shit if you think that is true.

Out of his examples of water plane stuff the only thing I, as a wizard, would be worried about are the Water Genies and any full caster Fish people I might meet because without even really preparing something special I can seriously ignore Water Elementals, Fiendish Octupi, and Mind Eater Fish unless I *want* to kill them.

No you can't. You can't ignore Aboleths, they will kick your face. You can't ignore Water ELementals, they will eat you, you can't ignore Fiendish Octupi, they will grapple and eat you.

Greater Invisibility woops none of those things can do anything about it, feel free to ignore them now

and even regular Invisibility would work if you want to ignore them so wow isn't that neat that you can ignore monsters easily as a caster

[Kaelik]

Greater Invisibility woops none of those things can do anything about it, feel free to ignore them now

and even regular Invisibility would work if you want to ignore them so wow isn't that neat that you can ignore monsters easily as a caster

Except you don't have the move silently ranks to prevent them from following you for the 10-20 rounds of invis that gives you. And Aboleths have see Invis or blindsight, and Fiendish Octupi have high enough listen checks to pinpoint, and rely on their own darkness and ink jet abilities anyway to negate sight, so don't care if you are invisible. So if I were a real bastard, the Octupi would move adjacent to you and use Blasphemy, but otherwise, they still grapple you, and the Elementals are still hanging out following you, and the Aboleth is still full attacking you or casting spells.

Like I said, just because you don't understand how high level D&D works doesn't mean that it's terrible, it means you don't understand how high level D&D works.

[Plebian]

Greater Invisibility woops none of those things can do anything about it, feel free to ignore them now

and even regular Invisibility would work if you want to ignore them so wow isn't that neat that you can ignore monsters easily as a caster

Except you don't have the move silently ranks to prevent them from following you for the 10-20 rounds of invis that gives you. And Aboleths have see Invis or blindsight, and Fiendish Octupi have high enough listen checks to pinpoint, and rely on their own darkness and ink jet abilities anyway to negate sight, so don't care if you are invisible. So if I were a real bastard, the Octupi would move adjacent to you and use Blasphemy, but otherwise, they still grapple you, and the Elementals are still hanging out following you, and the Aboleth is still full attacking you or casting spells.

Like I said, just because you don't understand how high level D&D works doesn't mean that it's terrible, it means you don't understand how high level D&D works.

actually with Greater Invis you can just murder them with spells, fiendish octopi cannot actually hit the DC40 spot/listen to pinpoint(they have +4 listen and +6 spot), and aboleth do not have see invis by default (it's not even on the aboleth mage suggested spell list)

but keep this up you're a really funny guy

edit: where are you getting Blasphemy because I'm looking at the fiendish template and it's not even mentioned