We need new terms for DMF and Vanilla Action Hero.

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Lago PARANOIA
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We need new terms for DMF and Vanilla Action Hero.

Post by Lago PARANOIA »

I'm starting to regret coining these terms because they don't get across the point I wanted to.

DMF - Dumbass Melee Fighter. This term was originally referred to the stereotypical D&D character who was completely useless outside of a fight because that's all that they could do. The classic image is that of Krusk the Barbarian, who is your go-to guy if you want something chopped down but used for ANYTHING ELSE he's useless.

The term was supposed to encompass two concepts but upon reflection I overreached and caused needless confusion. It was supposed to put down characters who didn't have any real superpowers outside of fighting. If the conflict doesn't directly involve beating someone in a fight then they're useless. But the game where this problem was the worst (Dungeons and Dragons) obfuscated this issue because the rules overly glorify fighting. You can see this in 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons: the previously-failed fighter archetype didn't get more schticks and ability to contribute, the scope of the game just went down.

And because 4E D&D tried to pretend that because it drastically lowered the standards on what it meant to have the ability to advance the plot after taking toys out of the hands of the players (while still pretending that you could do this for 'epic' level plots without nerfing the epic-ness) and claimed that as a victory for balance it pissed me the fuck off. So I lashed out at the character archetype that created this stealth-nerfing in the first place. So I originally tried to get across the point of: the reason why you can't have interesting characters in 4E is because this game stupidly insists that motherfuckers like the Barbarian and the Fighter could contribute to high-level plots after all! I originally talked about this problem here and I think this is where the term got popularized. http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50 ... sc&start=0

But anyway, what I tried to get across is that characters of this unintended 'the plot needs to babysit you!' archetype consistently fall into the pattern of being:
  • Dumbass because they have no fallback schticks like masterplanning or diplomacy, so they just stand around like idiots if something can't be sworded. This wasn't to imply that these characters are actually stupid, it was to say that outside of their expertise you might as well have someone retarded because someone as sensitive and intelligent as Roy advances the plot with their class abilities as much as Thog. If they were, say, clerics Roy would be immensely more useful than Thog (like Haley vs. Crystal) but because of their unfortunate choice of roles they aren't. So either consciously or unconsciously these characters were all dumbasses and those who weren't fell under the 'but I didn't eat the mousse!' clause.
  • Melee because the vast majority of these characters have an emphasis on melee fighting because it's really easy to understand and has an immediate and visceral appeal to newbies. A lot of people don't or won't understand your complex magic system or can figure out how to use traps to their advantage, but everyone can understand hitting something with an axe. It was poking fun at the Leeroy Jenkins types who might not be able to come up with a plan to save their life but by GOD they know how to run up to something and make an attack roll!
  • Fighter because classes like the fighter, barbarian, ranger, etc.. are the worst victims of the above two things. Even a wizard who was only concerned about killing things with fireball could theoretically move out of the realm of being 'lol explosions', but fighter-types have such limited special effects that even if you really try they can't rise above the first two limitations.
The FIGHTER part of this was the most important when I first came up with this, because it originated in a thread about why the Martial power source is so fucking useless. The 'fighter' part didn't emphasize enough that the reason why such characters were useless: it's because the martial power source didn't allow people to do a lot to begin with. It's not just because the class was mechanically underpowered, but because it was conceptually underpowered. It's like having a class that's called 'Basket Weaver' or 'Commoner'.

I realized the problem with this term in future debates when people decided that in order to 'solve' the problem of the Dumbass Melee Fighter was to give them a ranged weapon and a +40 sword. Because the 'fighter' part implied that they were useless because of the class mechanics (as opposed to the concept) and also because melee combat is generically underpowered all things being equal. See the Video Game Cats' comic on Instant Rape Zone.

Their suggestions of course fixed the problem of these characters being unable to contribute in combat, but what I was also trying to get across was that these characters are unable to contribute in non-combat, especially as D&D's power level increases. So I came up with another term: Vanilla Action Hero.

Vanilla Action Hero was supposed to cover heroes who star in action-adventure fiction without any kind of phlebtonium to help them get by. Characters such as Conan, Indiana Jones, etc.. It was supposed to function as an explanation as to why characters like Krusk and Lidda aren't able to break out free from the shackles of the Dumbass Melee Fighter bindings and also separate them from people who could also literally fit the definition of Dumbass Melee Fighter (such as Teen Titans Robin or Jotaro Kujo) but would contradict the point the term was trying to get across (because he can credibly contribute to the plot without it having to babysit him). Unfortunately, me wanting to switch over to this term allowed characters like Ichigo and Starfire to escape the implied criticisms of this term. So now I regret it, too.

So fuck it.



So. I need the TGD's help coming up with a third term. The term is supposed to refer to two concepts:

1) A character who is unable to generically contribute equally to the extent that their teammates can because their schtick is limited. For example, having a character that can manipulate fire versus shoot lasers out of their eyes. The former character can simply do a lot more things with their power (flight, shields, mass blinding, smokescreens, etc.) than the latter. So if you have someone who can shoot eye lasers and someone who can manipulate fire on the same team, all other things being equal the latter guy is going to be more useful and be able to advance more plots.

2) A character where their inability to contribute to equally to the plot as their teammates isn't immediately obvious because they can still bring on the combat pain or they get role-protection for things that shouldn't be role protected. Whether they're actually competent at their contribution without author babysitting (such as Ichigo or Starfire) or not (such as Sokka and Batman) is irrelevant. The point is that the plot gets on their knees to suck off these worthless bitches when it doesn't have to for other characters.

In other words, here's what I'm trying to get across with this term: These are characters an action-adventure plot has to regularly go out of its way to babysit in order to let them contribute and the reason that this is so is because their power set is limited but the story still pretends that the character contributes equally or has the potential to contribute as much as the other differently-powered characters.

So these are the characters who would get included under this term:
  • Justice League of America Batman: Because the plot has to role-protect things for him like his intelligence and also say that his throwing Batarangs is a useful contribution to a fight that can challenge Superman.
  • Starfire: Because even though she fights as well or even better than her teammates the plot has to center around fighting in order to make her useful, because that's all she can do. So even though the plots Teen Titans regularly go through require some sort of non-fighting skill from the other team members unless it the plot involves mundane shit like 'take care care of mutant silkworm' Starfire can't advance it. But she's supposed to be the equal of her teammates.
  • D&D's Krusk the Barbarian: See Starfire. Even though in D&D canon be can't contribute as much even in his area of expertise as Mialee and Jozan, even if you gave him a +100 sword and armor he would still have the underlying problem of not being able to advance the plot unless it involved fighting. Even though this is supposed to be a team-based game where everyone contributes equally. But because most people seem to think that you can 'fix' the barbarian and fighting just by making their numbers bigger they miss the underlying point entirely. So more than anything else, this term is supposed to sneer at them.
  • Sokka: See Batman. In his own words he's the only one allowed to do universal shit like navigate and come up with plans because that's his only major contribution to the plot. If he wasn't there, Katara and Aang and Toph and Zuko could rotate the role of 'person who comes up with killer plan that totally defeats the bad guys this episode' because it wouldn't take away from their screentime.
These characters would not be encompassed by this term:
  • Superman: His ability not to be able to contribute to most plots outside of fighting isn't because he has a limited power set, but because of either Plot Induced Stupidity or because of the other characters.. In the hands of a competent writer, he'd be able to do a lot more.
  • Main Series Batman: in his own series he's actually an extremely useful character, because his low-level sneaking, hacking, intimidation, and inventing skills along with his martial arts are a huge help. The plot doesn't have to babysit Batman in order to get him to contribute because he's fighting people who could logically be taken out by tear gas or Batarangs. The few times he doesn't, such as against Clayface, he has to find alternate solutions but the plot doesn't have to magically hand him one. He doesn't need to have stuff role-protected for him in order for him to contribute. While he's a genius martial-artist, he doesn't have to be the only genius martial-artist in the story in order for him to get screentime where he can advance the plot under his own power.
  • Ma-Ti: Like Superman, he actually has a very strong power but is a victim of plot-induced stupidity. While his motif doesn't directly lend itself towards visceral violence unlike his other teammates, that doesn't mean that he's useless or that the plot needs to protect him.
  • Kenichi the Strongest Disciple: Because that series is about nothing other than the character fighting to become the strongest person in the world. His world literally revolves around doing nothing but fighting in melee combat. Even though he'd be this as-of-yet unnamed term if placed in most plots of action-adventure fiction, even the low-level plots like in Conan the Barbarian, as long as he stucks to his own series he isn't.
  • Haruno Sakura (Part One Naruto): This term wouldn't encompass her because she was deliberately designed to be useless. What I'm trying to get across with this term is that the label is supposed to highlight the deceit inherent in the trope. But because the story makes no bones about her being underpowered and useless in a fight she doesn't get babysitted by the plot. The plot doesn't go out of its way to give her screentime; it just treats her as a useless hanger-on.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:30 am, edited 6 times in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Roy »

Beatstick. Simple, straightforward, and to the point.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Roy wrote:Beatstick. Simple, straightforward, and to the point.
I don't like that term because it lets Sokka and Batman and Starfire escape the epithet while also accidentally including Sora from Kingdom Hearts and Cyborg.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Roy »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Roy wrote:Beatstick. Simple, straightforward, and to the point.
I don't like that term because it lets Sokka and Batman and Starfire escape the epithet while also accidentally including Sora from Kingdom Hearts and Cyborg.
How do you figure that?
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Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?
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Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
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Post by Leress »

Plot-protected one-note hero.
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Post by Winnah »

Gummi Bear. Because bouncing solves everything in Gummi-Land.

edit: Missed the point, sorry.

What's the name of the guy from captain planet with the Heart ring?
Last edited by Winnah on Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Ma-Ti, but I don't think he really fits this unnamed definition because his superpower is genuinely impressive and helpful towards advancing the plot, it's just that A) due to plot-induced stupidity it's very limited and B) even if it wasn't, viewers respect mindless violence more than intelligence nonviolence.

If anything, Wheeler is actually more of a Ma-Ti than Ma-Ti because his power was generically only useful for violence anyway (which would be fine, but the adventures are generally of the 'stop the spread of racism through the inner city' not 'Beat up Duke Nukem') while the other Planeteers could use their powers for violence AND resolving plots.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Winnah »

I think I grasp what you are attempting to define. I could very well have missed the point entirely though.

How about something like Knot Cutter or Alexandrian hero. Sword solves riddle!
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Call it a Smurf.

All the smurfs are supposed to be equal adventure protagonists but are really and clearly incredibly narrow specialists who only ever contribute because the episode in which they appear is special written to allow them to, and sometimes not even then.

If that isn't good enough for you... pick a specific smurf who was extra god damn useless in their adventures fighting a giant monster cat and a giant monster wizard. There are a huge list of them, here are some of the worst, the list of smurfs you WOULDN'T pick for your smurf PC party on an unknown episode adventure...
Painter Smurf
Vanity Smurf
Poet Smurf
Greedy Smurf
Submariner Smurf

SUBMARINER SMURF, no really they lived in a god damn FOREST.

edit: actually there are even worse smurfs than that, like a tyrannical King Smurf, an Amorous Smurf who's entire schtick in life is to be Smurfettes creepy stalker (though honestly that has more adventure usefulness than some smurfs, assuming you bring smurfette to the party which you totally do because she kicks ass), there is a Pretentious Smurf (no really) and an honest to god actual that's his god damn name Weakling Smurf...
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Leress wrote:Plot-protected one-note hero.
I like it, but it's not disparaging enough. Plot-protected also refers to plot armor (a different problem, but even interesting heroes have them) and one-note kind of obfuscates the heroes with several-but-useless schticks like Batman and Starfire.

What do you think of Plot-Fellated Vanilla Hero, Leress?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by FatR »

I think "Vanilla Action Hero" is a very useful and intuitively clear term for differentiating non-powered people from powered ones, so we should let it live.

I also think, that it's not a very good idea to dump VAHs like Sokka and JLA Batman together with people who are actually passably competent at beating things up, but can't do anything esle, like Ichigo, or, as I guess from your comments, Starfire of Teen Titans. Particularly because the latter often can actually do stuff other than beating things up, if you think about their abilities and how they can be used, they just don't bother to, or never put in situations when it is more advantageous than stabbing faces, and it is very hard to say with any objectivity, when your escape clause of plot being completely centered about fighting applies*.

Well, for characters who can only beat things up and that's all they do I propose "One-Trick Fighter", just not to obfuscate the meaning with "melee" reference which is not true for many of them. This will automaticaly them from characters like Jotaro Kujo or Kasumi Kenshiro, who still mostly hurt people in melee combat, but can also apply their powers to remove mind-control brain parasites or compel truth from people, or whatever.

*EDIT: That your proposed character category needs something like this, by itself means it is too vague. For example, is Bleach only about fighting? Because, let's face it, all actual power-requiring challenges in Bleach are solved by either asskicking, or applying secondary abilities you need to kick ass in that setting. Sure, Ichigo's powers are boring, because he's an One-Trick Fighter, but they are sufficient to advance through the plot, except for the travelling between dimensions part, which he probably could have mastered too, if he ever had a real reason to.
Last edited by FatR on Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ScottS »

"Hammer of Maslow"?
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Post by Grek »

Putting my vote in on Alexandrian Hero.
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Post by Neurosis »

Can we talk about games where this is an issue versus games where this is not an issue?

Games I know of where this is an issue:
Dungeons & Dragons 3.5

Games I am familiar with where this is not an issue:
Every other game I know of. (oWoD, nWoD, d20 Call of Cthulhu, 2E, 3E, 4E, and 4A Shadowrun, 4E D&D, etcetera.)

Note to modify the above, neither I or anyone I play with happens to practice character optimization, "munchkin", "powergame" or whatever you want to call it. So if those things specifically change the game then that might be why the above look skewed.

Additional note to modify the above, I am not familiar with every WoD splat. Nor am I an expert on WoD by any means.

Final note: This is just my opinion. I don't mean to state it like it's fact. Your refutation doesn't need to be that strongly worded. *really*

***

Unrelated (maybe) point. Isn't the best solution to this simply not creating a game where Batman and Superman are both PCs? Even if 4E D&D doesn't solve it in a way you like, doesn't it solve it by making everyone Batman? Can you think of a good example of a game that makes everyone Superman?
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Post by Neurosis »

As far as the actual question, I like Alexandrian Hero/Knot Cutter okay. And Beatstick is extremely catchy. I think that most of the other suggestions are just too long and wordy.
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Post by fectin »

RBG hero? Because those are the colors you used to describe it, so it won't have any other connotations.

related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unl8l8VdONw
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Post by Username17 »

Smurf is fucking perfect, yeah.

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Post by Roy »

FrankTrollman wrote:Smurf is fucking perfect, yeah.

-Username17
No, it's terrible, because mentioning that word randomly makes this place just like the Paizil boards.
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Post by Prak »

Roy wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Smurf is fucking perfect, yeah.

-Username17
No, it's terrible, because mentioning that word randomly makes this place just like the Paizil boards.
...why?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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Post by Roy »

Prak_Anima wrote:
Roy wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Smurf is fucking perfect, yeah.

-Username17
No, it's terrible, because mentioning that word randomly makes this place just like the Paizil boards.
...why?
Have you ever read their forums? Hint: They randomly use that word. A lot. They even have something coded into their board software to encourage such trolling. I am not fucking kidding.
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Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?
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Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
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Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
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Post by Prak »

Roy wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:
Roy wrote:
No, it's terrible, because mentioning that word randomly makes this place just like the Paizil boards.
...why?
Have you ever read their forums? Hint: They randomly use that word. A lot. They even have something coded into their board software to encourage such trolling. I am not fucking kidding.
No, see, being a semi-reasonable person, I stayed the hell away when I found out how dumb they are.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Username17 »

Roy wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Smurf is fucking perfect, yeah.

-Username17
No, it's terrible, because mentioning that word randomly makes this place just like the Paizil boards.
I don't actually give a rat's ass about the Paizil boards and not doing something because someone else did something superficially similar in a different context is a fucking terrible reason to adjust your behavior.

Smurfs really are the ideal poster child for this problem. They each have an incredibly limited skill set and would be completely incapable of advancing the plot without the plot bending over backwards to give them perfect situations to use their bullshit abilities. Even the ones who have superficially decent attributes (Brainy Smurf is "smart", Brawny Smurf is "Strong", Vanity Smurf is "Handsome") are still incredibly limited in what they can accomplish. They're worse than Lost Vikings from the first game. Only Smurfette (who is actually a golem made by Gargamel) and Papa Smurf (who is a fucking wizard) are ever able to handle miscellaneous plot developments. All the others, and I do mean all the others, are only able to do anything at all because of Chekhov's Plot Developments.

But if you really wanted to avoid Smurfs for some inane reason, Pikmin and Lemmings are pretty similar. What with being clearly based on Smurfs in both instances.

-Username17
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants »

Prak_Anima wrote: No, see, being a semi-reasonable person, I stayed the hell away when I found out how dumb they are.
Yeah, that's basically the boat I'm in.

But yeah, I'm fine with smurf.
PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Again if Smurf on its own is too easily confused, pick a specific smurf.

Like "Weakling Smurf".

"The problem with our PC party is that it consists of a Superman, a Gandalf, a Kung Fu Napoleon and a Weakling Smurf."
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