Stay Classy Paizo.

[hogarth]

Yeh, that's my post that got deleted. Nice to know that Paizo is as bad at censorship as they are at other things. It was up for several hours before vanishing, so it seems unlikely it's a forum error.

Paizo moderators don't hesitate to delete posts if they think they contain a personal (ad hominem) attack. They can certainly get a little heavy-handed at times.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Hey man, you brought up babies. I was extending your analogy.

I was quoting one of Mr. Resetti's rants from Animal Crossing. Maybe I should've used a smilie.

Oh, and your analogy fails as well, because a smelly dude in your office is something that directly impacts you. How does the fact that some people like to play shitty fighters impact you at all?

When Paizo puts out shitty products it makes people less likely to play D&D. Like, if this product was good it could've kept 3.5E afloat for a few more years. There's still some life in the girl, people playing tables at Origins and everything.

You may as well ask me 'how did Star Trek: VOY routinely putting out shitty episodes affect you as a Star Trek fan'? Yeah, in the grand scheme of things like child poverty and genocide and global warming it doesn't really matter. But as far as the whole issue of 'will the state of D&D be made shittier' goes, yes, it does matter. Because it's one of my favorite hobbies.

Just like I'm deluding myself by pretending I have any chance of persuading you by sweet reason here.

No. Your delusion comes from you thinking what you're spewing is 'reason' and then trying to backhandedly get pity for it. You're not making a heroic but doomed stand against bad logic, you're just engaging in passive-aggressive appeasement and then acting like it's all for the best.

So stop snivelling like you have the high ground.

[malak]

When Paizo puts out shitty products it makes people less likely to play D&D. Like, if this product was good it could've kept 3.5E afloat for a few more years.

Whatever you think of Pathfinder, it does help to keep 3.5 alive. In every gaming store there is bound to be lots of (new) PF material available, next to 4E and Shadowrun and DSA and whatever. And PF is about as close as you get for new 3.5 stuff...

[K]

Yeh, that's my post that got deleted. Nice to know that Paizo is as bad at censorship as they are at other things. It was up for several hours before vanishing, so it seems unlikely it's a forum error.

Paizo moderators don't hesitate to delete posts if they think they contain a personal (ad hominem) attack. They can certainly get a little heavy-handed at times.

You think so? I've found that they have no problems with people insulting anyone who criticizes established material, either Paizo or WotC.

[hogarth]

Paizo moderators don't hesitate to delete posts if they think they contain a personal (ad hominem) attack. They can certainly get a little heavy-handed at times.

You think so? I've found that they have no problems with people insulting anyone who criticizes established material, either Paizo or WotC.

Well, that's supposedly the policy. Whether it's applied fairly, I don't know and I don't care, because I try to stay away from ad hominem attacks in the first place. Except on this board, of course.

[Zinegata]

Actually, that some people play a shitty version of the game you play does affect you. Because this is a social game. Which requires more than one person.

Hey, moronic bitch.

You don't have to play with those people. You're a lying shit by saying that because it's a "social" game, you have to play with people who like shitty games.

The truth of the matter is you play with friends. Who share the same tastes as you do. So who fucking cares about Paizo fanatics? You're not playing with them. A tabletop RPG is not a fucking MMORPG where you're forced to play with assholes.

When I (or K) goes off looking for a game, he will get responses which include 'want to play a shitty game?' and 'how about Pathfinder?' Which are basically the same thing. Doesn't that get tedious?

None of you are "looking" for a game. K is criticizing other people's games. You're sitting around talking bullshit. That's a completely unrelated tangent to what's being discussed here.

Besides, if you wanna "look" for a game that you and your friends like, you do fucking research, which you don't know how to do. Because in your example you simply asked people for a game but failed to define any criteria. So why be shocked when people respond with shitty games?

[Zinegata]

When Paizo puts out shitty products it makes people less likely to play D&D. Like, if this product was good it could've kept 3.5E afloat for a few more years. There's still some life in the girl, people playing tables at Origins and everything.

This is also BS.

Just because Paizo puts out shitty products, doesn't mean that people will stop playing their D&D campaign. They will just say "Oh, it's a shitty 3rd party supplement" and keep playing their own games.

Will people stop playing if supplements run out? Maybe. In that case the answer is to make supplements they would like, not whine about other supplements that other people may like. Like it or not, Paizo-fanatics are helping keep 3.5 D&D numbers up.

Again, people here need to realize it's not their bloody job to rid the world of shitty RPGs. Because otherwise you should be hunting down real shit like FATAL.

If the supplement you want does not exist, make one. It's the only good thing this board is known for.

[Juton]

I know I'm not alone in feeling that Pathfinder was a massive fucking disappointment, but where the halcyon days of 3.5 that much better? As a general rule each of their splat books had maybe 4 interesting prestige classes, maybe a half dozen useful feats or class options and maybe something glaringly overpowered. Seriously you could take all the useful material in all the completes (7 books sans psionics) and maybe print it in the space of two, maybe one if you where efficient.

[Zinegata]

Juton->

To be fair though, those splatbooks didn't over promise by saying they'd fix everything wrong with 3.5... only to totally fail at it.

The best that can be said about Pathfdiner is that they created a 3.X variant with pretty much all of its problems and some new ones. Although I do think the "You can full attack as a standard action" rule does help the Fighter out with high level rocket tag.

[Crissa]

Zinegata, go read this post, please.

Also, if I don't want to play Pathfinder because it is crappy, then it is actively reducing the people I can play D&D with as some people become invested in the system.

Just because you don't think I or K are looking for a game doesn't mean you are correct.

-Crissa

[Zinegata]

Zinegata, go read this post, please.

Crissa, I posted here before I read that (and I think I posted before that was even posted, but I'm not anal enough to check).

And I was told to tone down the vitriol. But I was not told to stop pointing out any outright lies you might be saying.

Also, if I don't want to play Pathfinder because it is crappy, then it is actively reducing the people I can play D&D with as some people become invested in the system.

Again, that's a false dilemma. Because if someone plays Pathfinder, then clearly they aren't interested in the same type of game as you are.

Just because another "better" game exists doesn't mean they'll play it. They'll keep playing Pathfinder because that's what they like.

So really, the pool of people you can play with remains the same. Taking away Pathfinder won't make them play Tome. They'll just come up with their own variant where the Monk still sucks.

Just because you don't think I or K are looking for a game doesn't mean you are correct.

Neither of you made any statement that you are "looking for a game" in this thread, until you decided it would be a suitable way to change the topic away from the very false statements you were making earlier.

So again, enough with the outright lies. You know very well that the point of this thread wasn't to make new friends or find new players. The point of this thread was to whine about Paizo.

So, in summary:

- "RPGs are a social game and shitty games affect MY gaming!" is a lie. You're not playing with the whole society.

- "Shitty RPGs take away people I could be playing with!" is a lie. Because those people _want_ to play "shitty" RPGs. Taking away said shitty RPGs will just make them houserule their own version where the Monk still sucks.

- Crissa is looking for people to play with in this thread is a lie. Because invading another forum and telling them their game sucks is the silliest way of making new friends.

[DragonChild]

Pathfinder does impact me - my friends, who aren't quite as rules savvy like it. And try to get me to play it, over 3.5, or HERO, or 4e, or some other, superior system. And I have to choose to fight with them over the system (not a good idea), not play with my friends, or play a system I think is shitty.

[Zinegata]

Pathfinder does impact me - my friends, who aren't quite as rules savvy like it. And try to get me to play it, over 3.5, or HERO, or 4e, or some other, superior system. And I have to choose to fight with them over the system (not a good idea), not play with my friends, or play a system I think is shitty.

In my boardgaming club, I'm sometimes forced to play games I don't really particularly like. To mitigate this, we take turns in who gets to pick this week's game, so everybody has a chance to play something they really want.

But that's inherent with any tabletop gaming experience. In fact, it's inherent in any social activity. Sometimes you have to drink beer because your friends want to, even though you wanna play video games.

What people are saying is that "Take away the beer, and they're forced to play video games!"

What I'm saying is, "No, take away beer and they'll just cook up some alchohol with a backyard distillery. Either learn to drink with your friends, or find new friends."

Or, you know, compromise.

[Blasted]

What people are saying is that "Take away the beer, and they're forced to play video games!"

What I'm saying is, "No, take away beer and they'll just cook up some alchohol with a backyard distillery. Either learn to drink with your friends, or find new friends."

Or, you know, compromise.

I think that you're wrong about what people are saying.
I think that they're saying "This beer tastes horrible, I wish I didn't have to drink it. I will complain to the brewer and they might improve the beer." and "I know XYZ beer tastes horrible, when I look for new drinking buddies, I will avoid people who think it tastes great. I think that most of them don't realize that there are better beers available. I will complain to the brewer."

[Crissa]

Also, when you go down to the local watering hole to drink brewskis or hang out with your buddies - you can't drink what isn't there to be drunk. If the bartender doesn't know what Skyy malted is, or your buddy who was picked to bring the brew likes Tequiza and got a case for you to share... You're up a crick without a wetness to your whistle.

It's not a perfect metaphor, but you can't play a different game from your gaming group. It's a social interaction. As long as Pathfinder is sold as an alternative to playing 3.5, it will taint the group and the game.

More like you have a favorite swimming hole and Pathfinder is taking a crap in it. You don't have to swim there, but that would mean finding a new swimming hole. Until then, the pool is closed.

-Crissa

[Zinegata]

I'm gonna veer away from the beer analogy as it's just gonna open the door for wise-asses to say "But I like sake".

People here are whining about Paizo. They say it's a shitty system. We all generally agree it's true in terms of trying to "fix" 3.5.

The problem is that some people still like it anyway. They like their system even if it has shitty mechanics. Why? Don't ask me. But maybe they like the pretty pictures, they buy into the marketing, or whatever.

And you're not going to change the fact that's what they like. So telling Paizo to produce something "better" won't necessarily mean these guys will keep on playing Pathfinder. In fact, they might just say "You changed Pathfinder into a munckin Tome game and now it sucks. I won't play it anymore!"

So either way, whining about other people's game ad-infinitum is a useless exercise. The problem isn't with Paizo. The problem is human nature - not everyone has identical tastes.

Make your own game, find people who like that game, or compromise. Or keep whining uselessly and wonder why nobody is playing with you.

[Crissa]

If they don't play it anymore, then they don't bring it to the store, and they don't suggest I play it with them.

And I do like sake. Though soju is better.

It's not that there aren't differences in tastes - it's that Paizo's product has demonstrable faults which make games end in screaming matches. Because roleplaying is a social endeavor, and must be done with different people, together.

Together. Like a bottle of wine; it is best drunk with someone. You don't uncork a bottle of champaign and a bottle of syrah and then sit across the table and play a different game.

-Crissa

[Zinegata]

More like you have a favorite swimming hole and Pathfinder is taking a crap in it. You don't have to swim there, but that would mean finding a new swimming hole. Until then, the pool is closed.

-Crissa

Constantly repeating a lie won't make it any true. Again, you don't even have to interact with Paizo fanatics unless you choose to. You are not playing an MMORPG.

If the problem is that your friends like Paizo, then you either have to compromise or find new friends. Brainwashing machines to alter long-held preferences do not yet exist.

Just because Paizo is gone, doesn't mean that people will stop wanting the kind of game Paizo produces.

Blaming Paizo for a lack of people to play with is honestly just excuse-making. More likely, you're either talking to the wrong people, or people simply don't want to play with you because of other reasons (Hint: Thinking that saying their game sucks is a great way to make new friends is called "anti-social" and makes people less willing to play with you).

And seriously, as far as I know there are only like 3 or 4 people in the Den who are currently GMing games. And I only know 1 or 2 of them is even using Tome. If Tome is so superior, why do so few people even in the Den use it?

[Blasted]

The problem is that some people still like it anyway. They like their system even if it has shitty mechanics. Why? Don't ask me. But maybe they like the pretty pictures, they buy into the marketing, or whatever.

And you're not going to change the fact that's what they like. So telling Paizo to produce something "better" won't necessarily mean these guys will keep on playing Pathfinder. In fact, they might just say "You changed Pathfinder into a munckin Tome game and now it sucks. I won't play it anymore!"

So what you're saying is "Stop telling Paizo to change, because some people may or may not like the change and if they do not like the change, they may or may not continue playing pathfinder and if they don't continue playing pathfinder, they may or may not find another game. So just don't tell Paizo to change."

You're ignoring the best case, where Paizo changes Pathfinder into Tome (or whatever) and everyone loves it. The worst case is that people playing Pathfinder currently wont change to a new Pathfinder.
I think that the risk is worth it.

[Zinegata]

You're ignoring the best case, where Paizo changes Pathfinder into Tome (or whatever) and everyone loves it.

That's because I'm not delusional .

People who like sound mechanics were generally driven away from Pathfinder after the playtest fiasco. Thus, the people who have stayed with Paizo definitely like it for different reasons. They won't suddenly love mechanical soundness over whatever it is they like about the current Pathfinder.

It's also worth noting that Pathfinder isn't that popular either anyway. Lots of people just use their existing 3.X stuff, or migrated to 4.X, or remain morose grongards who would scream "2E forever!"

And again, I'd hate to break it to you people, but Tome isn't that popular. Outside the Den most comments I hear about it is that "It's got neat ideas, but only for munchkins". That it's meant to balance out all classes vs spellcasters is often lost.

Moreover, no single RPG has ever managed to achieve the "everyone loves it" status. The best you can do is to make up some cool new shit, and hope people like it.

I didn't "ignore" the best case. It simply does not exist.

[Kaelik]

And seriously, as far as I know there are only like 3 or 4 people in the Den who are currently GMing games. And I only know 1 or 2 of them is even using Tome. If Tome is so superior, why do so few people even in the Den use it?

And your problem is that you don't know anything.

Ignoring for the moment that I have started like 12 Tome games as a GM within the last year, and am only continuing one, there are also people who fucking play Tome games as players. Those games count to.

I can think of three people who are DMing Tome games right the fuck now, and even though I think what's his name Ava... is a shitty DM and a shitty person, that's still three games online that I know about.

If you buy the premise "There exist people who play Tome games in person" your 4 is already beaten.

(I think Uber's in person game is Tome, making it five Tome games that I know about.)

[Leress]

Here is the thing, the designers of Pathfinder aren't listening. They really haven't been listening unless it some blue moon case where even they see their botch in the math.

Now back to the topic of the thread.

Can anyone explain to me why pointing out that Fighters blow is resisted so fiercely that even designers take time out of their day to come in to smack you with their dicks?

Because people don't like it when you say their creations aren't good. Some will listen but are less likely when a lot more people say that what they made is good.

[Psychic Robot]

You're ignoring the best case, where Paizo changes Pathfinder into Tome (or whatever) and everyone loves it.

Ahahahaha. No. Never. Not in a million years, no. Tome doesn't address the underlying broken aspects of 3e, it just powers up non-casters. Imagine if everyone were playing a class roughly as powerful as a wizard that required less system mastery to break the game.

[Crissa]

All my games are in summer recess. But my friends are getting into Pathfinder. Ugh.

I can deal with some of their (Paizo) ideas coming into my games. I don't want to deal with their weird combat stuff, though. It doesn't make the game better.

And as long as people defend Pathfinder beyond reason (as opposed to actual debate), it means I'm disallowed from bringing Tome ideas (like level appropriate feats) into games.

-Crissa

[Zinegata]

Kaelik->

I'm gonna ignore your bitching, because I was very careful to preface my statements with "as far as I know". If you wanna focus on that, feel free to continue being an ass.

That being said...

The two people who I know are GMing Tome games from the Den are Mask and you. But yours is on-and-off so often that I'm not sure if it's even ongoing or not, hence "1 or 2".

Now, you mentioned a bunch of people I don't know. Here's the thing though:

Even if you add it all up, that's about as many Tome games as the number of fingers on your hands. Compared to, what, 6 million total D&D players? Or, just looking at the Den, 1,075 members?

Ten guys running Tome games for say forty players (50 guys total, 1 DM and 4 players apiece) is pretty bad for a forum of 1,075, and utterly pathetic when compared to the total population of several million players.

-----

Also, for completeness' sake...

The other two people who I know are GMing are myself and Meikle. I'm GMing a 40K game. Meikle is GMing a 3.X modified game (I'm not sure if he let in some K-Feats, but I'm pretty sure it's not entirely a Tome game)

So, again, are you going to claim that Tome is hugely popular and in widespread use, even in the Den?