3.0 -> 3.5 changes

[Blicero]

Fine. In 3.0 haste was so much better for casters than Fighters.

I know it's already been covered, but only fleetingly. I mean, seriously, WTF WoTC?!

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that.

Fighters also got a huge boost from being able to move and then take a full attack in the same turn.

Whereas, by the time a 3.0 spellcaster actually had enough spells to significantly benefit from two spellz a round, mass haste was generally available, making the decision between hasting the wizard or fighter an irrelevant one.

In addition, wizards and such don't necessarily need[/] to cast more than one spell a round, sometimes more than one spell a battle. You can just fire off a black tentacles at the beginning of the fight and then go off in a corner a wank off while your buddies take everyone else down.

[Lago PARANOIA]

3.5E pretty much completely destroyed the concept of the fighter-archer, too, don't forget.

No one thing managed to kill off the fighter-archer, but the combination of the haste nerf, the lack of GMWing arrows, the nerfs to bracers of archery, the nerf to improved critical, and the extremely evil bonejob they did to the Order of the Bow Initiate pretty much made their niche obsolete. On the other side of the fence various stupid cleric and general-archer power-ups like Zen Archery and Wounding ended up intruding onto their niche.

Which is a fucking shame, because the 3.0E fighter-archer was really powerful in its own way. They could dish out ranged damage that would send the rogue running to the corner weeping like a little baby. But since that's all they did when they got that taken away they became bafflingly useless.

[Koumei]

Case in point: the Erinyes no longer has enchantment spells and giant boobs. Now she has a whole lot more hit dice and does a lot of damage as a flying archer.

Wait a minute. Really? Are you talking about something different in the art work? I don't remember the 3.0 MM pictures anymore.

Yeah, the 3.0 Marilith is kind of hot, the 3.5 Marilith is all melty-face. Fiends got significantly less fuckable in 3.5 art.

The Erinyes is still hot in FC2. Or perhaps "intimidating yet beautiful." Like "the female boss who is totally going to sexually harass you, and will fire you for sexual harassment if you don't have sex with her" or the MILF schoolteacher everybody had was taught by at some point.

But yeah, on the other hand, Mariliths. Oh, and while the Nymph got a definite upgrade, the Dryad is now made of wood, instead of being very beautiful.

[Zinegata]

3.5E pretty much completely destroyed the concept of the fighter-archer, too, don't forget.

No one thing managed to kill off the fighter-archer, but the combination of the haste nerf, the lack of GMWing arrows, the nerfs to bracers of archery, the nerf to improved critical, and the extremely evil bonejob they did to the Order of the Bow Initiate pretty much made their niche obsolete. On the other side of the fence various stupid cleric and general-archer power-ups like Zen Archery and Wounding ended up intruding onto their niche.

Which is a fucking shame, because the 3.0E fighter-archer was really powerful in its own way. They could dish out ranged damage that would send the rogue running to the corner weeping like a little baby. But since that's all they did when they got that taken away they became bafflingly useless.

There was a time Fighter-Archers were viable?

Why wasn't I told?

Last time I had to make an Archer... It was a trainwreck build that involved the PHBII Druid.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Quoting myself from another thread:

You were something like this: Elven Fighter 4 / Ranger 1 / Order of the Bow Initiate 2 (you want close combat shot and ranged sneak attack so hard) / Peerless Archer 4 (you want ranged sneak attack, fletching +2 for spell-storing arrows, power shot, and sharp shooting so hard) / Deepwood Sniper 2 (you want keen arrows, concealment reduction 10%, and improved criticals so hard) / Order of the Bow Initiate 8 (rest of the levels continue to give you sneak attack and some pretty nice class features to boot, such as improved Weapon Specialization to make up for that sneak attack bonus you're not getting, +WIS + 1 bonus to attacks, and opportunist).

Feats:
1: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
2: Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow, Precise Shot
3: Far Shot
4: Weapon Specialization: Longbow
6: Manyshot (there's some dumbass item somewhere that handed out Quick Draw--I forgot which one, but if not, you can just be a human instead)
9: Improved Critical
12: Zen Archery
15: Hamstring
18: Who cares, really?

But anyway, yeah. You had a pretty big attack bonus as this kind of archer and you could do a really large amount of damage to boot. You still needed to suck wizard cock to do your character schtick for enhancement bonuses to arrows and bows but a critical multiplier bonus + power shot + 7d6 sneak attack + vampiric touch arrows was pretty frickin' sweet you got to admit.

Of course, if your DM let you use spell storing arrows anyway things were already out of control, but assuming that you didn't you could still end up quite powerful around for an archer starting at around level 8 or 9. Fortunately just in time for when non-rogue casters really started sucking.

[Cielingcat]

OotBI was raped extremely hard by Complete Warrior. I don't believe it's worthwhile at all anymore.

EDIT: Oh wait 3.0 I'm so dumb.

[Zinegata]

Quoting myself from another thread:

You were something like this: Elven Fighter 4 / Ranger 1 / Order of the Bow Initiate 2 (you want close combat shot and ranged sneak attack so hard) / Peerless Archer 4 (you want ranged sneak attack, fletching +2 for spell-storing arrows, power shot, and sharp shooting so hard) / Deepwood Sniper 2 (you want keen arrows, concealment reduction 10%, and improved criticals so hard) / Order of the Bow Initiate 8 (rest of the levels continue to give you sneak attack and some pretty nice class features to boot, such as improved Weapon Specialization to make up for that sneak attack bonus you're not getting, +WIS + 1 bonus to attacks, and opportunist).

Feats:
1: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
2: Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow, Precise Shot
3: Far Shot
4: Weapon Specialization: Longbow
6: Manyshot (there's some dumbass item somewhere that handed out Quick Draw--I forgot which one, but if not, you can just be a human instead)
9: Improved Critical
12: Zen Archery
15: Hamstring
18: Who cares, really?

But anyway, yeah. You had a pretty big attack bonus as this kind of archer and you could do a really large amount of damage to boot. You still needed to suck wizard cock to do your character schtick for enhancement bonuses to arrows and bows but a critical multiplier bonus + power shot + 7d6 sneak attack + vampiric touch arrows was pretty frickin' sweet you got to admit.

Of course, if your DM let you use spell storing arrows anyway things were already out of control, but assuming that you didn't you could still end up quite powerful around for an archer starting at around level 8 or 9. Fortunately just in time for when non-rogue casters really started sucking.

Ah. It's a multi-class that relies on a lot of PrC dipping. I thought it was a mainly Fighter build with just OotB on top.

Okay, that makes me feel better. My 3.5 Archer build was a PHBII Druid (using the swift action shapechanging), with dips in Ranger (because 95% of our enemies were Kobolds), Duskblade, and a couple of PrCs.

And yes, I realize Codzilla would have been easier.

Doesn't arrow effects still stack in 3.5 though? Not the straight-up enhancement bonuses, but the elemental damage I mean. If I fire a Fire Arrow with a Sonic Bow wouldn't it deal 1d6 fire and 1d6 sonic damage?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Ah. It's a multi-class that relies on a lot of PrC dipping. I thought it was a mainly Fighter build with just OotB on top.

The build doesn't lose a lot of power (at least until around level 15 or 16) if you decide to keep just using 3.0E Order of the Bow Initiate levels and you keep your eye on appropriate MIs--Oathbow and Bracers of Archery. That PrC really is good for all 10 levels, except for level 9. But level 10 of OotBI comes with sneak attack next level anyway. After that you can just finish off with rogue levels.

Not having Power Shot really does hurt your DPR, but it puts you at 'slightly better than ranged rogue' level as opposed to gimp. Seriously, get Power Shot. Not at the expense of Order of the Bow Initiate levels (because Close Combat Shot is your make-or-break ability), but if it comes down to having to schlick/jerk off your DM to get a second PrC, make it happen. Unfortunately, Peerless Archer is in an obscure FRCS sourcebook (Silver Marches), so if it isn't available you can always fall back on Deepwood Sniper. The range increment bonus, concealment reduction, and various critical multipliers--how would you like to own an 18-20 x5 weapon?--so it's really not a bad backup plan.

But you fucken NEED Power Shot. Even if it means you having to kill someone in front of their own mama.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Doesn't arrow effects still stack in 3.5 though? Not the straight-up enhancement bonuses, but the elemental damage I mean. If I fire a Fire Arrow with a Sonic Bow wouldn't it deal 1d6 fire and 1d6 sonic damage?

They stack in both editions. In fact if you want to make any kind of archer you need to do some algebra to calculate how many arrows you will use up between levels (you could do it per encounter, but most DMs don't pay attention to WBL except at level-up time and besides it's complicated enough) and cross-calculate that against the price of having a permanent bow.

Or if that's too complicated, after about level 12 or so you can always just have a bow of a plus one less than you intended (such as going with a +1 subtle flaming shocking icy bow instead of all that plus acidic) and make up the difference with arrows. Unless you're shooting an obscenely high rate of arrows between levels you'll end up saving money. Due to the quadratic MI costs, the sweet spot of cost savings for MIs happens sometime at level 14.

[Zinegata]

I honestly didn't do a lot of calculations regarding the arrow costs really.

Generally, I tried to keep the total cost of my arrows less than my bow. Fortunately the DM let me buy arrows in smaller packets.

The archer was KIA'd around level 10 anyway and was replaced by a Dwarven Paladin who is often used as ammunition by his Brown Bear mount.

The team is currently trudging through Hell and having a party member that counts as a good-aligned Improvised Weapon is useful when we keep getting hit by stuff like Hold Person and the bear keeps making his save.

[RobbyPants]

Whereas, by the time a 3.0 spellcaster actually had enough spells to significantly benefit from two spellz a round, mass haste was generally available, making the decision between hasting the wizard or fighter an irrelevant one.

It was still pretty potent right when you got it (level 5), but you could really only pull it off once per day. It was a tremendous "boss" spell, because you really only have to worry about the NPC's spell slots for a single encounter. The DM could worry about whether or not the NPC had already cast some spells for the day, but that would assume the NPC was already out doing stuff that day, or worse yet, had cast divinations earlier (which would likely make the boss ready for the PCs).

Although as crazy as 3.0 Haste was, it did make the solo NPC wizard boss fight a little more doable at key levels (i.e. before the PCs get Haste). It allowed a single character to almost effectively act as two.

Oh, and while the Nymph got a definite upgrade, the Dryad is now made of wood, instead of being very beautiful.

Yeah, the 3.0 dryad was so much better. I have mixed feelings about the nymph. I don't like the ears on the 3.5 one so much, but they did add in the whole nekkidness factor.

[Lago PARANOIA]

While I appreciate the nakedness of the 3.XE nymph quite a bit, I do wish that there was more effort into making the nymph look less like an elf with DD-cup breasts. Real original, fellas.

[RobbyPants]

...Probably better than the bug-eyed freak from the 2E MM. Remember that one?

In retrospect, it's eyes aren't as bad as I remember, but it's still off-putting to me.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

While I appreciate the nakedness of the 3.XE nymph quite a bit, I do wish that there was more effort into making the nymph look less like an elf with DD-cup breasts. Real original, fellas.

The 3.5x nymph didn't have DD's. I'd say she was a C-D or so if you'[re using American bra size. She's on the low side of average and only looks fuller because her body is disproportionately thin. (Proportion is more important than sheer size when it comes to breasts.)

[Crissa]

Low side of average is actually A. Because average is B.

Not that you'd know by looking at media.

-Crissa

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I was off a bit, but not as much as you are claiming. Average is 36C for North Americans. I still contend that the Nymph's bust size only seems impressive because the rest of her is incongruously thin.

The statistic I am quoting is repeated amongst several sources that I found when I searched "Average American Bra Size", including Wikipedia. Time Magazine, Livescience.com, and every answer site that came up in the first screen. And they echoed the fact that my girlfriend had told me that women in America tend to not wear a big enough cup size and instead opt for a smaller cup with a larger measurement which is not supportive enough. (She herself thought she needed a J, but found out she needed an L when she was professionally fitted).

[K]

I was off a bit, but not as much as you are claiming. Average is 36C for North Americans. I still contend that the Nymph's bust size only seems impressive because the rest of her is incongruously thin.

The statistic I am quoting is repeated amongst several sources that I found when I searched "Average American Bra Size", including Wikipedia. Time Magazine, Livescience.com, and every answer site that came up in the first screen. And they echoed the fact that my girlfriend had told me that women in America tend to not wear a big enough cup size and instead opt for a smaller cup with a larger measurement which is not supportive enough. (She herself thought she needed a J, but found out she needed an L when she was professionally fitted).

Is there something wrong with me in that I love this whole part of the thread?

Yah, I vote for a general comeback of the chainmail bikini age of RPGs. I mean, it's not sexist since the sweaty-chested Conan of that era is not Howard's chainmail-clad Conan.

Now we just need a game engine to support it.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I have not done the research, but does anyone have experience with the Unearthed Arcana variant where people just got an AC bonus based on their class? A 1st level fighter has +6 armor bonus to ac no matter what she or he wears, so a chainmail bikini would at least be plausible. I never actually tested it mechanically in a game setting though.

Edit: Relevant link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adven ... eBonus.htm

[Koumei]

Yeah, I'm also a fan of the chainmail bikini thing. Possible ways of achieving it include:
[*]The Defence Bonus thing
[*]Looking at the Chainmail Bikini third party book and seeing if that helps
[*]Expand the Gymnos Defence feat into something that can generally work for anyone
[*]Digging up the old GUCK netbook, which had a feat chain of two crappy feats then a "While you're not wearing armour and have a fair amount of flesh showing, gain Cha to AC. If actually nude, also apply your Cha as a penalty to opponent's attacks." one. Give that to a Nymph and you have triple Cha to AC, basically.
[*]Fuckit you're K, you could think a solution up in your sleep

Anyway, it's worth noting that the Defence bonus thing isn't even an Armour bonus, so it applies against touch attacks.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Anyway, it's worth noting that the Defence bonus thing isn't even an Armour bonus, so it applies against touch attacks.

It doesn't stack with armor bonus, but you are correct in that it does apply against touch attacks.

[Meikle641]

I've had it as an option in my current campaign. Only one player is using it currently (as armour gives DR now), but has seemed to work fairly well so far.

[Lago PARANOIA]

As in addition to AC, right?

[Judging__Eagle]

Decorative Armour
"Fuck you, I'm Warduke!"

A suit of armour made to make the wearer look awesome. Also, helps with the stopping of attacks.

The armour can have many apperances, but gernally they are meant to the wearer look awesome, while not making them hampered by too much armour.

Some are shoulderpads and back-harnesses covered in spikes and dead heads, all Chaos Grimdark Style [Warduke's Plate]. Others, some kind of fancy looking armour. Think of a military uniform dress armour, now made of platinum, and gold, and jewel-studded [Commander's Armour]. Others still are a swarm of dolls that hang from a net of necklaces, and each doll looks like a different person[Web of Dolls]. Some are able to conduct the energy of performance, into a tangible and physical object [Bardweave]. Others are covered in arcane, cthonic and eltritch symbols, plus some random generics as well [Magethief].


BaB: Benefit
+0: Your Armour class is based off of the ranks of one of your Charisma Based Skilles [Intimidate, Diplomacy, Bluff, Disguise, Perform, Use Magic Device].

+5:
+10:
+15:

Minimum Cost: 25,000 gp*

*:Max Mundane item value you can get in the Wish Economy

[ubernoob]

Yeah, giving a +13 armor bonus at level 10 with no max bonus is a good idea. Totally. It's not like giving an armor bonus of 3+level for every class ever (seriously, UMD) is a bad idea that goes completely against the philosophy that went into designing armors beyond fullplate, breastplate, and chainmail or anything.

Can you stop writing retarded mechanics, JE?

[Crissa]

If it's replacing your armor, who cares?

-Crissa