Copyright question

[The Vigilante]

To what extent is a RPG system copyrighted ? If I were to substantially modify a P&P RPG, completely change the setting, remove mechanics and add a lot, could I legitimately claim it is a new RPG, publish it and make money ?

[Calibron]

You can't copyright a general rule like "roll a D20 add modifiers and check against a target number" so if you totally remove/replace all the copyrightable fluff you can certainly get away with that as long as your classes/monsters/chargen/whatever aren't carbon-copies of the previous RPG.

[Lokathor]

If you remove all of the "artistic presentation" that someone else put in, you can use the mechanics of another thing, because mechanics themselves can't be copywritten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSRIC

That said, obviously be extremely careful with what you're doing, consult a lawyer, and so on.

[The Vigilante]

Let's use an example : does the SR tradition system for magic can be considered as mechanics or artistic presentation?

[Username17]

Let's use an example : does the SR tradition system for magic can be considered as mechanics or artistic presentation?

What about the tradition system? Obviously you can't copyright Hermetic Sorcery, because it is hundreds of years old.

5 spirits, a drain stat, and a manifestation type is pretty minimal as well. What do you actually want to copy?

-Username17

[The Vigilante]

Well, pretty much what you just said, the mechanics for different traditions. If I write up like 10+ different traditions that use the exact same mechanics, IE Bonus to whatever skills, spirits or spell types, miscelaneous disadvantage, 5 spirits and manifestation type. I won't keep any of the original traditions either. Is that copyright infringement ?

[Lokathor]

Depending on how you specifically word it, possibly not.

[Username17]

If you aren't using the same spirits and aren't using the same stat names? No.

-Username17

[The Vigilante]

Frank, would you be willing to eventually review this product ? We're talking a quick reading to see if everything is internally consistent and free of loopholes and exploits. Name your price if you would charge.

[Username17]

Frank, would you be willing to eventually review this product ? We're talking a quick reading to see if everything is internally consistent and free of loopholes and exploits. Name your price if you would charge.

I am critical of other peoples' work for free.

-Username17

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Frank, would you be willing to eventually review this product ? We're talking a quick reading to see if everything is internally consistent and free of loopholes and exploits. Name your price if you would charge.

I am critical of other peoples' work for free.

-Username17

How much to pay you to NOT criticize people's work?

(I keed, I keed.)

[Koumei]

It's sort of a symbiotic thing: other people benefit from the criticism in ways you'd expect, and rumour has it* that Frank can only sustain an erection after criticising the work of others, complete with hyperbole and satire.

*that rumour starting... now, I guess

[Calibron]

Hey guys, did you hear that Frank can't get it up unless he's scathingly criticized someone's work in the last couple hours? I heard it from a totally reliable source.

[DMReckless]

Hey guys, did you hear that Frank can't get it up unless he's scathingly criticized someone's work in the last couple hours? I heard it from a totally reliable source.

Luckily, he never runs out of material to criticize, and what with the rumor of you constantly sucking it, you probably consider that a good thing, right?

[MGuy]

You will tell us our stuff suck, and more importantly why it sucks, for free? I know who I'm sending my rule set to after its done.

[Calibron]

Luckily, he never runs out of material to criticize, and what with the rumor of you constantly sucking it, you probably consider that a good thing, right?

I'm ashamed that I was legitimately offended by this for a moment. Good job.

[DMReckless]

Luckily, he never runs out of material to criticize, and what with the rumor of you constantly sucking it, you probably consider that a good thing, right?

I'm ashamed that I was legitimately offended by this for a moment. Good job.

Thanks, it was tongue in cheek (at least I thought that was tongue... hmnn.) Thanks for taking it as the humor it was intended to be.

EDIT: now I feel like I belong. You're really not a part of the den until you've offended someone with a fellatio comment, right?

[K]

Let's use an example : does the SR tradition system for magic can be considered as mechanics or artistic presentation?

What about the tradition system? Obviously you can't copyright Hermetic Sorcery, because it is hundreds of years old.

5 spirits, a drain stat, and a manifestation type is pretty minimal as well. What do you actually want to copy?

-Username17

The thing is that you'd have to rewrite everything. Like, if you want a Bear Shaman he needs to have a completely new flavor text, new dice bonuses, new weakness, and maybe new spirits.

You basically have to rewrite almost every word to get a Shadowrun clone, so you might as well just write a new game and not risk a lawsuit you can't afford. See the movie Underworld and White Wolf's Vampire and Werewolf games; the movie guys won that case, but after quite a bit of litigation.

The issue isn't about whether you would win a suit. The issue is "can they bring a suit and bankrupt me in legal fees even if I win?"

Also, get qualified legal advice from a copyright and trademark attorney in your state for actual legal advice. Armchair forum types, even those who are lawyers in other areas, are not allowed and should not give advice. Especially when it's your ass on the line.

[Calibron]

Oh yes definitely, the only way you should use layman, or K's, advice is that if they tell you it's not legal then don't bother wasting your time/money getting real legal advice.

[K]

Oh yes definitely, the only way you should use layman, or K's, advice is that if they tell you it's not legal then don't bother wasting your time/money getting real legal advice.

When it comes to the law, you get what you pay for.

This being free, you can do your own math.

[The Vigilante]

The thing is that you'd have to rewrite everything. Like, if you want a Bear Shaman he needs to have a completely new flavor text, new dice bonuses, new weakness, and maybe new spirits.

You basically have to rewrite almost every word to get a Shadowrun clone, so you might as well just write a new game and not risk a lawsuit you can't afford. See the movie Underworld and White Wolf's Vampire and Werewolf games; the movie guys won that case, but after quite a bit of litigation.

The issue isn't about whether you would win a suit. The issue is "can they bring a suit and bankrupt me in legal fees even if I win?"

Also, get qualified legal advice from a copyright and trademark attorney in your state for actual legal advice. Armchair forum types, even those who are lawyers in other areas, are not allowed and should not give advice. Especially when it's your ass on the line.

I will definitely get legal advice, but as somebody else stated, I probably wouldn't have bothered getting it if you guys had told me to forget about it.

Also, it definitely won't be a Shadowrun clone. We will use similar mechanics but we will completely rewrite the fluff and the setting.

I already posted an earlier version of what we're aiming for here a few months ago. It's basically a medieval system with Shadowrun-inspired mechanics. We even have ship-building and navigation mechanics now, so much will be added to the "core".

[K]

The thing is that you'd have to rewrite everything. Like, if you want a Bear Shaman he needs to have a completely new flavor text, new dice bonuses, new weakness, and maybe new spirits.

You basically have to rewrite almost every word to get a Shadowrun clone, so you might as well just write a new game and not risk a lawsuit you can't afford. See the movie Underworld and White Wolf's Vampire and Werewolf games; the movie guys won that case, but after quite a bit of litigation.

The issue isn't about whether you would win a suit. The issue is "can they bring a suit and bankrupt me in legal fees even if I win?"

Also, get qualified legal advice from a copyright and trademark attorney in your state for actual legal advice. Armchair forum types, even those who are lawyers in other areas, are not allowed and should not give advice. Especially when it's your ass on the line.

I will definitely get legal advice, but as somebody else stated, I probably wouldn't have bothered getting it if you guys had told me to forget about it.

Also, it definitely won't be a Shadowrun clone. We will use similar mechanics but we will completely rewrite the fluff and the setting.

I already posted an earlier version of what we're aiming for here a few months ago. It's basically a medieval system with Shadowrun-inspired mechanics. We even have ship-building and navigation mechanics now, so much will be added to the "core".

There are organizations of lawyers that do pro-bono entertainment law for artists just starting out, and they'd probably be willing to look over a copyright and trademark issue for you like this.

Of course, they won't litigate for you. For that, they expect to be paid.

And once you start turning a profit, all further legal work would be for paid.

[Username17]

It's sort of a symbiotic thing: other people benefit from the criticism in ways you'd expect, and rumour has it* that Frank can only sustain an erection after criticising the work of others, complete with hyperbole and satire.

*that rumour starting... now, I guess

-Username17

[Aktariel]

EDIT: now I feel like I belong. You're really not a part of the den until you've offended someone with a fellatio comment, right?

I've been here a while, but I haven't done that. No wonder I don't belong yet.