Embezzlement in Catalyst

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Wesley Street
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Post by Wesley Street »

FrankTrollman wrote:How could they?
You've hit a very huge flaw in the P&P gaming business and I've never understood why it hasn't been corrected.

Diamond Shipping is the sole distributor for the comic book industry and it does track sales of individual titles to retailers. It's actually publicly available information. I don't know if its sister company, Alliance Game Distributors, does the same thing for the gaming products it distributes. If it does, the info isn't available to anyone outside the manufacturing side. My point is that if a rinky-dink industry like mainstream comics can track how many units are being sent to retailers, it can be done for games. Which would allow, not only the public, but the actual license holder, to know how much product is floating around out there without having to rely on the word of a licensee. Why it's not, I have no clue.

As to why would they? It seems like corrupt practices in the gaming industry are such a common occurrence that if I were a license holder I'd want to make damn sure my money was coming in. But that could very well be my paranoid, non-trusting POV.

I'm certainly not doubting any of the facts you've posted, Frank. There was already plenty of shady shit going on at CGL before you broke the "co-mingling of funds" news. People who I really enjoyed working with quit due to idiotic decisions on the business side months ago and that pissed me off. It's only now that gamers' precious Shadowrun line is in jeopardy of disappearing indefinitely that anyone is sitting up and taking notice.
FrankTrollman wrote:The fact is that you want something to sell every month or two. You don't want five things to print all at once half a year from now.
Wouldn't a strict and staggered schedule take care of that?
FrankTrollman wrote:The other thing of course is that the writers would rather get a paycheck every month than a bigger paycheck twice a year. They have like, rent and shit. If you're paying 5 cents a word (and you should be), that 150k book is going to be worth $7,500(before royalties, which you should also be providing). That's really not very much, but the important thing is that if you're asking your writer to hold out for half a year before they see it, there is a very good chance that they'll have to bail on the project before it's done - and then everyone gets nothing. Much better to dangle $1,500 each in front of five different writers for the month and get things done.
That's definitely a problem but it seems to stem from a mindset of "you write everything, it goes to print, then we pay you." Which I think is pretty bogus. In an ideal world, projects and assignments would be based on solid proposals which would foster real competition in the writers' pool and weed out the garbage. The writer whose proposal was selected could then receive a contractually based advance and payment at certain monthly stages of book production (first draft, revised draft, release, royalties, etc).
FrankTrollman wrote:But remember: Synibarr has one author and took like 12 years to write, that's not really a valid direction either.
No. Definitely not. But with SR and any other game that's hit the 15-year mark, you're not reinventing the wheel as a creator. With SR you're tweaking rules, streamlining rules, getting rid of bad rules, or adding some cool new ones based upon those that were created by Tom Dowd and company. It's not like the engine is completely unrecognizable from edition to edition even if there are some serious differences. And when it comes to source and setting books, 3/4ths of the material is already in existence from earlier editions. Writers take what they think is the best material, rewrite it in their own words, expand on some ideas, shrink others, and perhaps add a few new concepts. I like Seattle 2072 but it really is just Seattle Sourcebook with a fresh coat of paint. All the heavy lifting had already been done for that piece, at least in terms of writing. Except for Africa (okay, Lagos in Feral Cities was new), the world of SR has been pretty well charted. A space book might sell well and writers can always revisit old haunts like London or expand upon locales that were only briefly touched on in the Shadows of... books. But I can't see the license holder permitting (or players tolerating) a major change to the fictional world's status quo.

The only completely from scratch stuff that comes along are campaign books or canned adventures, but even then they're often sequels to earlier works or pull their source materials from unpublished drafts, like Ghost Cartels pulling from SoLA.

I do vehemently agree with your notion of a B Team consisting of part-timers creating secondary material, even if they're PDF-only adventures. The only way to maintain an engaged audience is to consistently produce material.
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Post by Username17 »

As for development schedules, you'd want something like this:
Cog in the Machine1st Month2nd MonthThird Month
DeveloperTakes submissions for Ghost Hunters
Discusses ongoing Core Writing
Submissions for War!
Modifies Core Texts
Discusses ongoing Ghost Hunters writing
Submissions for Modern Thaumaturgy
Modifies Ghost Hunters Texts
Discusses ongoing War! drafting
WriterWrites 40k words
in Core Book
Writes chapters
in Ghost Hunters
Writes chapters
in War!
EditorSits on handsFirst pass on CoreFinal Pass on Core
First Pass on Ghost Hunters
PlaytesterLooks at early drafts of CorePlaytests Core
Looks at early draft of Ghost Hunters
Playtests Ghost Hunters
Looks at Early draft of War!
TypesetterSits on HandsSits on HandsTypesetting for Core

Obviously, you'd have the artists doing their thing in parallel. The thing of submitting art requests when the book is in frickin layout has got to stop.
Wesley wrote:Diamond Shipping is the sole distributor for the comic book industry and it does track sales of individual titles to retailers. It's actually publicly available information. I don't know if its sister company, Alliance Game Distributors, does the same thing for the gaming products it distributes. If it does, the info isn't available to anyone outside the manufacturing side. My point is that if a rinky-dink industry like mainstream comics can track how many units are being sent to retailers, it can be done for games. Which would allow, not only the public, but the actual license holder, to know how much product is floating around out there without having to rely on the word of a licensee. Why it's not, I have no clue.
First of all, there are multiple distributors in the game industry. Games are "books" and so you have several competing companies. Some of them choose to release figures, others don't. People have attempted to do statistical sampling by grabbing the figures from one company and dividing by their overall market share - but that's pretty limitedly successful because a lot of games have various exclusive deals or incomplete distributor penetration, which massively skews the per-company market shares from game to game. In the midst of all this crisis, Catalyst actually signed with a different distributor, PSI.

And if they weren't going through PSI, there are Other Options.

Secondly, direct sales aren't tracked by distributors at all. And in Comics, that's small potatoes. But with full-sized, 30 dollar game books that's a relatively bog deal.

In short, the only reason that Comics have a reliable third party to report relative sales is because there's a distributor monopoly. There isn't one in the small book publishing world, so games don't have that check on them and can't. Transparency is a per-company decision. It has solid advantages, but some people would rather just pocket all the German royalties. It's up to investigation by the license owner to find that kind of fraud, because there is no easy answer.
Wesley Street wrote:Wouldn't a strict and staggered schedule take care of that?
A strict and staggered schedule is necessary no matter what you do. But you also need a short writing time so that if disaster strikes and a book falls through the cracks SoLA style - you can salvage things by bringing something up immediately. It's not really acceptable to wait six months or more for a game book to get looked at by an editor. You want to be able to tell people that a book will be done and when as soon as you put it on the schedule.
That's definitely a problem but it seems to stem from a mindset of "you write everything, it goes to print, then we pay you." Which I think is pretty bogus. In an ideal world, projects and assignments would be based on solid proposals which would foster real competition in the writers' pool and weed out the garbage. The writer whose proposal was selected could then receive a contractually based advance and payment at certain monthly stages of book production (first draft, revised draft, release, royalties, etc).
To an extent, sure. But now you're talking about the company being potentially in hawk for real money 5 months before a book hits print. And it might never hit print. Single author works simply take too long for the game development cycle. We just can't wait another 2 years for the next Harry Potter book. The next appearance by Mafan needs to be next month. And we get this by making sure that each writer is never forced to write more at a time than they can write in a month.

But yes, writers should be getting a paycheck every month. Because they have to eat and pay rent.

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Post by Crissa »

Comics and Games Retailer used to get this information from polling (until their profits were too low and their parent company, losing money, pulled the plug). Diamond did not do this first, or even think up the system they use.

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Post by Crissa »

My spouse already made a secret cult of Frank t-shirt and handed them out...

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Post by DragonChild »

Yeah, but I'm the owner of the one and only shirt that proclaims:

I'm not Frank's
(picture of a wombat)
No, really, I'm not!



I'm not sure if I should be proud of this or not.
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Post by Sir Neil »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:What ever happened to that 'Frank Trollman's Little Flock of Sheep' T-shirt?
The one Tzor posted about inheriting the kingdom of Pun-Pun? I might be able to find it floating around on one of my computers.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Sir Neil wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:What ever happened to that 'Frank Trollman's Little Flock of Sheep' T-shirt?
The one Tzor posted about inheriting the kingdom of Pun-Pun? I might be able to find it floating around on one of my computers.
Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of. I didn't realize that there were so many...
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Post by Centurion13 »

A Man In Black wrote:
Centurion13 wrote:Be careful, Frank. You've blown the gaffe and caused real-world misery for SOBs who have themselves caused real-world misery for others without a qualm. Words on the internet are one thing; just make sure they can't screw you up with frivolous (and expensive) lawsuits. Or worse.
Why is it that a forum account and an internet connection turns everyone into an amateur lawyer?
It's the magic of the Internet, silly! Now about my fees...

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Post by Stahlseele »

This might be just a little bit mean:
http://www.complexactions.com/comic/084.jpg
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Fuchs »

Not as "mean" as the ugly gloating posts made on the DS forums by the hypocrites and their ilk with reards to Frank's ban.
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Post by Wesley Street »

Crissa wrote:Comics and Games Retailer used to get this information from polling (until their profits were too low and their parent company, losing money, pulled the plug). Diamond did not do this first, or even think up the system they use.

-Crissa
True. True. But unless something happens in the comics distribution field as a result of Disney's acquisition of Marvel they're still the only game in town. As far as comics numbers are concerned, anyway.
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Post by Username17 »

Fuchs wrote:Not as "mean" as the ugly gloating posts made on the DS forums by the hypocrites and their ilk with reards to Frank's ban.
You know, honestly those kinds of mean and ugly tirades were neither unexpected nor particularly impressive. I knew I was going to be banned at Dumpshock, that was never an issue. I knew people were going to say bad things to and about me on the internet, that's not even really a big problem. If I had a dollar for every time someone made an unjustified ad hominem attack on the internet, I would eat exclusively at charity dinners and luncheons and swan around in an orange tux.

Really only two things in this whole situation surprised me. The first was how thoroughly the dumpshock leadership failed the moral tests placed before them. Seriously, they attempted to deliberately derail a serious conversation about how to make sure that a single mother who had been stolen from by the company could continue to feed her children while the situation progressed; and did so though the expedient of spamming their own board with deliberately off-topic and explicitly sexually insensitive comments that were actually designed to make people uncomfortable. The number of levels in which that behavior is simply spectacularly not OK in any context no matter what your "side" is.

The other thing is how frankly stupid and unpleasant the other owners are. Sure, they were stolen from and that's wrong and everything. But... they are still incredibly awful human beings and I don't feel sorry for them in the slightest. Let's take Phil DeLuca, right? He's "ketjak" on the internet and has been for years. I've been aware of him for seven years, because he said some incredibly bone headed crap on EnWorld about D&D. And he was a total condescending dick about it. And let me tell you: condescension from someone who is seriously arguing that a Fighter who got a bonus feat every level would be overpowered is in its way even more insulting than condescension from someone who actually has discernible talent.

But I was willing to let that shit go. Because hey, what the fuck do I care, right? He was the victim now, and maybe he could be involved in bankrolling a new company to make Shadowrun in the coming months. But you know what? He's still an asshole, and he's still incredibly thick. He flailed around, attacking me of all people. Holy crap, I was on his side. And I've had an epiphany: the reason that the owners all let Loren Coleman have unrestricted and exclusive access to all the finances for several years while he stole a million dollars - is because they are all flaming idiots!

Which is unfortunate, because we are in crunch time. The new company is going to have to hit the ground running, because they will want to have a product to unveil at GenCon in August. And they won't have the deal signed to have the license until May. And with the people left at the old company barely able to feed themselves, the new folks aren't going to get a lot of help from the old works in progress.

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Post by Moonglum »

FrankTrollman wrote:The new company is going to have to hit the ground running, because they will want to have a product to unveil at GenCon in August. And they won't have the deal signed to have the license until May. And with the people left at the old company barely able to feed themselves, the new folks aren't going to get a lot of help from the old works in progress.

At this point, given how substantial the current mess is, do you think it would be a better move for a hypothetical new company to take a few more months to get its stuff together rather than rush to hit an August release date? They could take some time to do some of the things you've suggested -- get feedback and proposals from the more loyal hardcore fans, figure out which of the old writers/staff are useful to retain, set up a defined release schedule, then make an announcement and a new edition launch based on concrete, tangible, near-final product drafts already near the end of production.

A slapped-together two-month rush job might end up alienating more people than it attracts. And while a theoretical August release isn't destined for failure, its chances for greatness or even decency don't seem good.

Delaying a product release a few months means delaying return on investment a few months, but one would hope a new company (unlike individual freelancers) would have enough spare working capital to ride out a delay.
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Post by Dominicius »

FrankTrollman wrote: And let me tell you: condescension from someone who is seriously arguing that a Fighter who got a bonus feat every level would be overpowered is in its way even more insulting than condescension from someone who actually has discernible talent.
I would consider such an experience to be mandatory for everyone that comes to post here.
Last edited by Dominicius on Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Moonglum wrote: At this point, given how substantial the current mess is, do you think it would be a better move for a hypothetical new company to take a few more months to get its stuff together rather than rush to hit an August release date? They could take some time to do some of the things you've suggested -- get feedback and proposals from the more loyal hardcore fans, figure out which of the old writers/staff are useful to retain, set up a defined release schedule, then make an announcement and a new edition launch based on concrete, tangible, near-final product drafts already near the end of production.

A slapped-together two-month rush job might end up alienating more people than it attracts. And while a theoretical August release isn't destined for failure, its chances for greatness or even decency don't seem good.

Delaying a product release a few months means delaying return on investment a few months, but one would hope a new company (unlike individual freelancers) would have enough spare working capital to ride out a delay.
If you had a strong vision, you could get the SR5 book out in 3 months. Like Wesley Street said, it's not like you're inventing the wheel from scratch. You're looking at an already pretty functional book and applying rewrites to pieces that don't work right. But you have years of playtest data - you actually do know which those sections are. You open up the critter section and you put a "Must drain Essence from a Sapient target" restriction on Essence Drain and you divide Immunity to Normal Weapons from Immunity. This is mostly just a matter of remembering what parts of the book came up with problems over the years.

But yeah, it's really pushing things, specially because you'll be trying to launch your website and define the "look" for SR5 books and stuff at the same time. So you probably shouldn't shoot for a GenCon release of the new core book. You release some edition neutral book. Sixth World Almanac is an obvious choice. Corp Guide could work too. You could even get both out for GenCon to prove you were srs bzns.

But here's the part I don't get: Jason is getting those books rewritten and sent to layout. What the hell for? It's obvious that the books won't get published before the final breakdown, and the new company will want to use Sixth World Almanac as a test balloon to show off their new SR5 typesetting. Layout work now is very definitely never going to see print. So why bother?

The only thing I can think of is that Jason Hardy is trying to muscle in a "complete" product for the next company to immediately release, thereby keeping him on as defacto development head. But that strikes me as incredibly naive. The new company is going to want to throw down a new "look" for their product, because they are about to make a brand new edition that will actually use that look. They won't even want a new book that they can have printed right away, a pre-written book that they can simply impose their new typesetting on is already ideal.

Worst case scenario: Jason Hardy takes his rush job made with incompetent scab labor and gets a tiny print run off before Catalyst closes, so that the damn book has an ISBN number and copyright that is keyed to himself already. That would be an incredible dick move, but I wouldn't put it past him.

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Post by The Vigilante »

Regarding the availability and street date of the LE's, Randal Bills posted this today on the Dumpshock forums :
Hello all,

Just dropping by to post an update...was hoping to have a specific Street Date today, but the distributor asked for another day to verify on his side.

Regardless, the SRLEs are in house at two of the three primary distributors we use (on its way to that third distributor now). They're starting shipping and I hope in the next day or so to get a verification from the warehouse of the exact Street Date (note that usually speaking, from the time it's in the warehouse until the street date is less than 21 days...but it's been in warehouse for almost a week already).

Thanks for all your patience...

Again, as soon as I have more specific info, I'll post it.


Randall
To me this sounds like a lot of bullshit. If you were in that situation, wouldn't you try to get as much of it shipped as early as you can, even if it means that some people will get it a few days later than the others ? Some customers, including me, have been waiting for over 13 months since paying for it. I certainly wouldn't mind waiting another day or two for the final product, as it could even mean that some other customers have actually seen the final product and can testify that it actually is a physical thing that exists.
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Post by Stahlseele »

By the way, right now it's mostly hailing praise from all around the web for Franks Matrix rules on dumpshock. Only thing people really don't seem to like is the brain-hacking. But they agree on it being consistent in itself and with the rest of the rules.

And just as an aside, Randall Bills, who has been exceedingly silent on the whole affair, just posted to tell the dumpshockers the streetdate for the SR4LE . . as his second post all in all . .
Last edited by Stahlseele on Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by The Vigilante »

The famous date being May 3rd. I'll be waiting for the next excuse to see this delayed once more.

Frank, do you think this can be considered as "The Truth", or is it shenanigans once again ?
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Post by Clutch9800 »

The only thing I can think of is that Jason Hardy is trying to muscle in a "complete" product for the next company to immediately release, thereby keeping him on as defacto development head. But that strikes me as incredibly naive. The new company is going to want to throw down a new "look" for their product, because they are about to make a brand new edition that will actually use that look. They won't even want a new book that they can have printed right away, a pre-written book that they can simply impose their new typesetting on is already ideal.

Worst case scenario: Jason Hardy takes his rush job made with incompetent scab labor and gets a tiny print run off before Catalyst closes, so that the damn book has an ISBN number and copyright that is keyed to himself already. That would be an incredible dick move, but I wouldn't put it past him.
I'm not trying to be an apologist for CGL here, but maybe Jason Hardy is just trying to do what he thinks is right.

I mean, if you look at it objectively, having your name linked to the very last product that bilged from a sinking ship is hardly going to make you number one with a bullet as far as getting hired by a new company.

I know that a lot of folks have been burned, and I know exactly what you're talking about as far as being concecended to by so called "insiders", but there's no need to see every single move by CGL as part of some vast conspiricy.

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Post by Lokathor »

This is the shadowrun topic of the moment, quick question: What's up with nukes in the sixth world? Does no one have them? Do they not work? I can't ever recall seeing anything at all about them in the SR4A book.
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Post by Clutch9800 »

Lokathor wrote:This is the shadowrun topic of the moment, quick question: What's up with nukes in the sixth world? Does no one have them? Do they not work? I can't ever recall seeing anything at all about them in the SR4A book.
Didn't they Nuke "Bug City"?

I don't have my references at hand, but I thought that they did.
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Post by Quantumboost »

Nukes in SR "work weird". IIRC, the Bug City nuke had a drastically lower yield than expected, and there were a bunch of strange things involving nukes near the Awakening event (some nukes from North Korea to Japan just vanished, and a bunch of power plant meltdowns occurred).
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Post by Stahlseele »

The one in Bug city was shot into the udnerground ruins of a building and detonated under a magical screen that was erected by several hive mothers insect spirit queens.
All the onther ones were weird.
And then they went and chose the religious fanatics germanazi terrorists as the big plot device and gave them magically enhanced nukes that worked exactly how they were supposed to work . . . Yes, i am still bitter about the whole 2nd crash fiasco <.<
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by dirkformica »

What does this post from RPG.net's thread mean to the current situation?

"For anyone registered on PACER, check out case# 10-14343-TTG in Western Washington State. Looks like some of InMediaRes Productions LLC's creditors have filed for Ch. 7."
Last edited by dirkformica on Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Stahlseele »

It means, Frank gets to tell us again what most of us allready know, even if many do not want to admit it.
He has been right again it seems.
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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