[Variant Rules] Deep Impact: an outline

[Lich-Loved]

With the Kitchen Sink thread headed to more discussion of the old issues of 15 minute days, character death vs mission failure and the like, I have decided to post an outline of things I have been working on to resolve these issues. This is a D&D 3.5 variant system with the working title of Deep Impact. The game plays well in the playtesting I have been doing. I am actually writing these up formally but have been too busy to work on them lately and have suffered a crash on the server hosting my wiki, so I do not have access to all of the gritty details. However, as these discussions keep coming up, I thought I would throw out my ideas for review.

Disclaimer
I know this isn't what some people want from a game (see: Tome Game). I already get that. That is why the Tomes are there - to make people happy who want that kind of game. Posting that this game isn't a Tome game is therefore a waste of time. Likewise, telling everyone that you enjoy your badass Tier 1 pwnage is an interesting piece of trivia, but not really applicable here. These rules are intended to be used to rebalance and scope the game when used together, the only thing they need to do is meet this goal, not some other goal for which they are not suitable.

What I can tell you is that the system as a whole seems to work, is not rocket launcher tag and seems to be a viable alternative. Some of the longer-standing issues appear reduced or resolved with this system. Oh, this has only been tested with 3.5 PHB and DMG Core, no other spatbooks. Once I hammer out the issues with core, I can look at the splats on a case by case basis and base changes to what the splats provide to stay within the spirit of these rules.

Goal: End the 15-minute day, tear down Tier 1

• Spellcasters of every type use the sorc spells known table (+ bonus known for high INT). Pick any spells you want, mix and match divine vs arcane. On conflict use higher spell level (ref bard legend lore vs wizard version).
• Remove Vancian concept of spells/day or spell memorization. No spellbooks required.
• Spellcasters have mindspace equal to caster level +1. There is no way to change or augment this
• Spell durations are (almost always) indefinite - basically most spells have a duration of "while maintained". It costs mindspace = spell level to maintain a spell
• Healing spells are just like any other spell, which means, yes, you can heal everyone in or after every fight provided you have mindspace to cast the spell
• Eliminate all scrolls, wands, potions and any "charged item" - these skew caster power and screw with WBL (more on that below)
• Wands are now craftable at level 3 (see WBL) but have new effect: reduce mindspace of a single spell by 1 (to a limit of mindspace 1). Make as many wands as you wish to you MCP limit (see below)
• Staffs are craftable at level 5 (see WBL) and reduce midspace of multiple spells by 1 (to a limit of mindspace 1). Wizard types will probably want to carry a staff and buff the crap out of it over time, to the limit of what they can afford.
• 0-level spells cost 0.5 mindspace to maintain
• Spell range is short unless specified in the spell description (impacts some spells that create permanent effects)
• Note that some spells that have duration "permanent" (eg wall of stone and iron) are simply no longer permanent. These spells use mindspace same as any other spell.
• Other problematic spells (like gate, planar ally, planar binding) have been fixed to eliminate wealth and wish loops. Wish is currently not allowed as it is very problematic, but solutions are being kicked around.
• Eliminate all mundane (unpriced) material components (alternatively, every caster has Eschew Materials for free). Expensive/priced component costs remain. Any spell with an XP cost costs that much in gems (any quality/type) instead.
• Dropping a maintained spell is a swift action
• No spell failure for armor. Must have one hand completely free for spell somatic components (completely free = buckler/targe or empty handed)
• You may note this eliminates cleric domains and removes gods from everyday adventuring life. This is working as intended. Chacters can believe their power is divine if they want, or individual worlds can handle it in a specific fashion.
• This also eliminates druids. Again this is part of the Teir 1 teardown. If you want to be a druid, take foresty spells and skills, which I guess brings us to polymorph...
• Polymorph: (1) caster gets naked (2) caster buffs as needed, then casts polymorph (3) put on all items wearable in new form (4) All stats remain at base level as-is +/- items that are wearable in new form (5) caster has outward appearance of new form, size, mundane movement and respiration capabilities. Caster gains no Ex, Su or Sp abilities of new form (6) AC = casters previous AC + size mod for new size - items no longer applicable. No Nat armor granted though the caster may appear to have a very thick hide, it does not protect any better than plain old skin. (7)caster can maintain spells he has already cast regardless of form. Caster cannot cast new spells unless new form is capable of intelligent speech (eg the creature is described as having a known language it can physically speak). There is no Natural Spell.
• No quickened spell feat
• A number of other spells are adjusted to make sense with the "use at will" approach to spellcasting, but most are as written.
• Cohort casters that are adventuring with their masters will dedicate no more than 20% of their available mindpsace to buffing the player character master, rounded up (so a 9th level caster cohort, with 10 mindpsace will be glad to spend 2 mindspace (eg a second level spell or 2 firsts) on their master. Cohorts will keep defensive spells active on their persons in a manner approximate to the manner in which player casters typically do (so if a caster hits 5th and runs displacement in every battle, you can be sure his cohort will as well). This has the net effect of preventing cohort abuse while still having a person aiding the party.

Goal: Fix WBL

• Each character can take any craft feat desired, though non casters have no use for most of the item crafting feats
• Each character gets magic craft points (MCP) per WBL table
• Each character can scribe "runes" of any spell he would qualify for if he were a caster (eg fighter lvl 5 knows Fly rune, as it is a 3rd level spell)
• Each character is free to distribute his MCP's by scribing runes on any masterwork item (ring, boots, cape, gem, whatever). Slots and affinity and general crafting rules apply. Level limits on pluses to items continue to apply.
• Such an item is runed for and works only for the person that scribed the rune. Fighter lvl 5 can scribe a Fly rune on his sword and fly, but if he hands his sword to Cleric, it is just a masterwork sword. Selling a magic item runed or not therefore is just like selling a masterwork item.
• You can pull your runes off an item and move them around, reconfig runes or use new runes you have learned. It takes a week to do this per item. (still working on timing here)
• In rare cases, it is possible to find an item with "residual MCPs" - sword of your father, grand heroic sword or whatnot. As a rule of thumb, no item will ever have more residual MCP than 10% of the average party ECL's WBL amount. Example: 5th level characters have WBL 9000gp = 9000 MCP, so if such a fabled item is found it should have no more than 900 residual MCP. These MCP are transferred to the person claiming the item and can be used in any way the player sees fit. (This was added b/c the MCP approach to magic items meant the party could never find "a really cool item in a horde". This is a compromise rule that seemed to make everyone happy - a small bump in power temporarily. hand this out too much and you are right back where we started. This is still something of an issue. YMMV)
• Crafting using MCPs does not require expenditure of XPs.
• Gold is just that, gold, and can be used for whatever you use gold for. Since there is no buying or selling of magic items, about the best it can be used for is making masterwork items for later runing, keep building, bribing or the like
• Prices on AC enhancement items are 20% cheaper (each + of bonus on armor is cheaper)

Fighter vs casters vs same game test vs CR

• melee types and classes are buffed along Tome lines, though not as tough since casters are getting a nerf. Some of these buffs are class features, other require activation via Action Point.
• No more feat trees, feats scale by level
• Melee types gain renewable Action Points that can be spent to do tome-like things - 1 point per melee level (typical use: a hit on self = miss, save using FORT instead of reflex or will, hit on foe = auto-crit, access any feat on demand , make use of Tome-like feat/special ability)
• APs can be spent on your turn or another's, only one AP per full round. This prevents spamming of a "best action", melee types have to forego defensive AP use to make use of an offensive AP.
• APs are regained only after 5 minutes uninterrupted rest.
• Rule of Thumb: monster CR under 5 is unadjusted, 5-10 = existing CR+1, 10+ = existing CR+2. Same game testing still going on for some of these as they are encountered. Bottom line is CR is not rigid, but fluid as character power is obviously different than core. Once a monster CR is determine through testing, it is fixed though.

Resurrection, Death, XP, misc

• Death is permanent - no raising of any kind
• Death only occurs on a TPK - if even one person survives a fight, the group survives (NWN model)
• Death is in the player's hands - if they choose to die, they do.
• XP is per mission/story award completed regardless of means. Killing foes does not generate XPs

These rules keep the game moving and the characters acting heroic. What I have seen:

• No downtime for resting needed
• No rushing forward when weak before buffs run out
• No WBL manipulation schemes
• Killing is not the only answer
• Sundering and equipment loss is now not a game breaker as a new item can be re-runed
• No need for 30 minutes of prep buffing - casters have to carefuly choose which spells they want to maintain
• Fighter types now have access to what they need magically w/o being dependent on a caster
• No more magic item shops and wealth loops
• A throne of gold does not ruin the game
• Tome-ish changes to melee types make them contributors in battles and out
• Spell casters naturally specialize, no one caster can do it all
• Casters that choose to replace party member functions (eg Knock) are paying a heavy price for it, though of course they can still do it

[NineInchNall]

What criteria are you using as your balance reference? I mean, I see the "tear down tier 1" thing and immediately ask why.

[Lich-Loved]

I mean, I see the "tear down tier 1" thing and immediately ask why.

It is pretty simple. The 3.5 designers sucked at their jobs. Full caster classes completely own the other classes and the game is defined by what they can or cannot do. Everyone else is fodder. The Tomes try to fix this by basing the game on wizard power levels then amping everyone up to that level. The game then turns into rocket launcher tag with initiative being the kill or die determinant. This isn't to say the Tome's aren't balanced or that they aren't fun, it just leads to a game that doesn't work for me. So what is needed is a rebalance the other way; the things that make the tier 1 classes rule need to go in some part.

The task is complicated by the fact that Wizards are pretty level appropriate relative to published CRs and this is one reason the Tomes boosted non caster power. But if you turn the problem on its head, and basically begin by assuming that the monsters are not balanced against melee types, then what you get is a situation where (1) monsters need a toning down (handled in Deep Impact by raising their CR) (2) melee types need a boost along the lines of a Tome-lite approach and most importantly (3) full caster classes are then way way too powerful relative to anyone else they adventure with and thus you get my desire to tear down tier 1.

If this explanation doesn't sit well with you, all you need to do is look at how casters gain benefits of their actions from round to round whereas non-casters do not. I called this "action multiplicity" in a post a long time ago. A melee type swings a sword and that is it, his blow this round is not impacted by his blow last round. A caster, meanwhile, gains power every round he acts; he casts a spell that impacts a bunch of enemies, then next round he further affects those targets *while* he impacts those same enemies and so on with no additional effort on his part. Both characters are expending the same currency - actions, but the wizard gains an ever-increasing benefit from his actions whereas the melee types do not. Are caster types somehow special? Do they deserve this? Nope. This is one of the things what makes these guys Tier 1 and it absolutely has to go if you want melee characters to play a meaningful role in the game and not have those melee characters act as they do in the Tomes.

[NineInchNall]

Okay, I see where you're coming from. That's why I phrased my question the way I did. So if you're starting from the reasonable conclusion that the full casters are basically level appropriate for the CRs as listed, and you also are willing to modify the CRs of monsters such that they are level appropriate challenges for a different set of classes, the question remains:

What are you using for your balance reference point? Obviously it's not the casters, but is it the Tome of Battle / PHB 2 / Rogue? Whichever classes you take as your ideal, I gather you're adjusting the CRs of monsters such that those reference classes can go through a Same Game Test (or something similar) that gives you an objective standard by which to determine which classes need boosting/nerfing in order to adhere to the new CRs you've assigned.

The concept of what you're doing is neither abhorrent nor anathema to me. I'm just curious.

[K]

I hate to break it to you, but even with your changes spellcasters make warriors look like weak sauce.

They just do it in full plate and tower shields now.

To do what you seem to want to do, you'd need to remove Alteration, Evocation, Illusion, Enchantment, and Conjuration. And a few Necromancy spells.

[Lich-Loved]

Oh I see what you are asking now. It is a tomes-lite fighter. This means the fighter has all kinds of nifty things he can do and has class features he can do as well, with a fair number of them using the Action Point mechanism I mentioned above rather than having "always on" abilities.

Here is a rough table of the fighter types and what they can do (sorry for the formatting, but it is all I have ATM). Typically a fighter-type character would pick 2 archetypes and gain one ability off either table for each level in a melee class. An example thug character might be a a character using the Brute and Scout archetypes. At 3rd level, such a character would have d12 hit die (better of the two options) prof in simple and marital weapons and light and medium armor (no shields) and have a choice of 3 specials off either the Brute or Scout table. I basically built characters like this and ran *alot* of testing, adjusting monster CR as needed. I then ran some tests against the augmented casters to see how things worked out. We have also played some and things seem ok in game as well.

Anyway here is a partial table I used to buff melee types to serve as the baseline:

Code: Select all

Arch types	Ability	Descriptio
all	Tough as Hell	Minimum of +3 hp per hd [always on]
all	weapon proficiency – simple, martial		
all	Light Armor 		
all	Unshakable	+level vs fear effects [always on]	
Archer	Covering Fire	As readied action, provide AC bonus to ally taking an AoO. Bonus is equal to damage dealt on single attack, assuming attack is possible and hits [AT]
Archer	Sniper	When shooting with surprise, do +1d6 bonus dmg/2 levels, stacks with ambush [AT]	
Archer	Opportunistic Shot	Single shot as an AoO [AT]	
Archer	Shoot to Kill	Double threat range on this attack (no stacking), threats confirm automatically [AT]	
Archer	Difficult Target	Dodge bonus +1/3 levels vs ranged missile attacks [AT]	
Archer	Whetted Knife	One melee attack with simple weapon is at +1 to hit/level, +1 damage per level [AT]	
Archer	Called Shot	One ranged attack -4 to hit, + 2hp/level damage [AT]	
Archer	Master Archer	Use any Archer feat for the current attack [AT]	
Archer	Aim	Full round action. Next action must be shot at selected target, which strikes at +1 to hit/level. [AT]	
Archer	Quick to React	Reflex save is now a Good save [always on]	
Archer			
Archer			
Archer	Talented Fletcher [ooc]	Combine normal (non mw) arrows to form an enhanced arrow. Arrow has +1 to-hit quality bonus/3 levels, requires 2 arrows per plus so imbued. Arrows for personal use only [always on]	
Archer	Skilled [ooc]	+1 skill points /level	
Archer	ooc		
Archer	Archery Proficiency		
Archer	Medium Armor		
Archer	d8 hd		
Brute	Dirty Fighting	Free improved unarmed attack at highest BAB, +1d6/4 levels damage [AT]	2
Brute	Battle Rage	Rage 3 rounds + round/level, con+4, str +4, [AT used until rage over]	
Brute	Cast Aside	Use improved overrun or improved bullrush as part of move or charge [AT]	
Brute	Critical Strike	Attack that just threatened a crit is confirmed [AT]	
Brute	Punishing Blow	If current attack misses result needed for a critical by 1 and the attack hits, deal 50% additional base damage (rounded down). [AT]	
Brute	Battlescarred	DR of 1/- per level Does not stack with Sheathed in Steel [always on]	
Brute	Fierce Resistance	may substitute Fort for any save [AT]	
Brute	Overwhelm	Use any Brute feat for the current attack [AT]	
Brute	Bigger is Better	Deal double any bonus damage due to strength when wielding a 2-handed weapon [always on]	
Brute	Forceful Throw	Thrown weapon knocks target prone if attack hits and target smaller than or same size as Brute, larger creatures move 5ft away from Brute. Use STR instead of DEX to hit [AT]	
Brute			
Brute			
Brute	Feat of Strength [ooc]	+4 str plus +1 str/2 level for 1 round, does not stack with rage or anything else, [all remaining tokens, minimum of 1 needed]	
Brute	Skilled [ooc]	+1 skill points /level	
Brute	ooc		
Brute	d12 hd		
Brute	Medium Armor		
Defender	Sheathed in Steel	DR 2/- per level (does not stack with Battlescarred) Requires heavy armor and shield [always on]	3
Defender	Roll with the Blow	Half damage from current attack [AT]	
Defender	Stalwart Presence	Substitute Fort for any save [AT]	
Defender	Guard	Designated ally under your protection,  prevent AoO's not resulting from movement. Must be adjacent to ally at all times.  [always on]	
Defender	Take the Blow	Blow lands on you instead of Guarded ally [AT]	
Defender	Intercept	Make free, immediate 5 foot step to block foe from ally [AT]	
Defender	Close Quarters Fighting	Use counterattack to resist initial grapple attempt [AT]	
Defender	Perilous to Ignore	Deal +1d6 damage /2 levels against designated foe if it strikes at an ally which you guard [AT]	
Defender	Shield Wall	Add your shield bonus to Guarded ally AC [AT]	
Defender	Duck and Cover	Same as evasion if in heavy armor and using shield [AT]	
Defender	Improved Defensives	+2 to AC when using Full Defense or Fighting Defensively [always on]	
Defender			
Defender	Skilled [ooc]	+1 skill points /level	
Defender	ooc		
Defender	ooc		
Defender	shields proficiency		
Defender	tower shield proficiency		
Defender	Heavy Armor		
Defender	Medium Armor		
Defender	d12 hd		
Gish	Arcane Empowerment	Gain 1 AT as an immediate action. This ability stacks with itself. [1 mindspace consumed per AT gained, used until rested]	0
Gish	Prescience	+1 to hit/2 levels on all attacks this round [AT]	
Gish	Ward	+1 AC/2 level for 1 round [AT]	
Gish			
Gish	ooc		
Gish	d8 hd		
Gish	Medium Armor		
Martial Artist	Evasion	Evasion [always on]	3
Martial Artist	Combat Maneuvers	Use any Maneuver feat [AT]	
Martial Artist	Uncanny Dodge	Uncanny Dodge [always on]	
Martial Artist	Rain of Blows	Make unarmed attacks normally, noting number of attacks that hit. For each attack that hits, make an extra attack at -3 to hit. Max attacks in one round is level x 2 [AT]	
Martial Artist	Self Defense	+1 AC per level [always on]	
Martial Artist	Stunning Blow	Modified Stunning Fist [AT]	
Martial Artist	Zen Athletics	Add +1/level to climb, jump, tumble check in light or no armor [AT]	
Martial Artist	Momentum	If opponent misses you, immediately move opponent 5ft in any direction [AT]	
Martial Artist	Ground Fighting	As a standard action, spring from prone position to standing with no AoO and make a free improved trip attack [AT]	
Martial Artist	Leap Attack	Make Jump check as part of charge using Unarmed Strike. Add +level to hit, add +jump check result to damage. Standard action. [AT]	
Martial Artist			
Martial Artist			
Martial Artist	Skilled [ooc]	+1 skill points /level	
Martial Artist	ooc		
Martial Artist	ooc		
Martial Artist	d10 hd		
Scout	Ambush	+1d6 dam/2 levels with surprise or no dex bonus on target - stacks with Sniper [always on]	5
Scout	Camouflage	+1/ level stealth skill [always on]	
Scout	Vanish	make a  stealth skill check as a free action  [AT]	
Scout	Track	Gain the track feat for 1 mile/level [AT used until discharged]	
Scout	Trap Sense	+1/3 levels perceiving traps, avoiding their effects [always on]	
Scout	Timing Is Everything	+4 to initiative check [AT]	
Scout	Always Aware	+1/2 levels Perception skill checks [aways on]	
Scout	Quick to React	+1/level to all reflex saves for 1 round [AT]	
Scout	Quick Reconnoiter 	Perception check as free action [AT]	
Scout			
Scout			
Scout			
Scout	Wayfinder [ooc]	Always know direction and distance to known destination [always on]	
Scout	Highly Skilled [ooc]	+2 skill points/ level 	
Scout	Wildland Stride [ooc]	Move at normal speed through non-magical brush, snow, ice and the like [always on]	
Scout	d8 hd		
Swashbuckler	Uncanny Dodge	Uncanny Dodge [always on]	3
Swashbuckler	Improvised Combat	Use any Swashbuckler feat [AT]	
Swashbuckler	Riposte	Make single attack at opponent that just missed you [AT]	
Swashbuckler	Battle Mobility	Use Spring Attack or Mobility for 1 round [AT]	
Swashbuckler	Deflect Blow	Parry attack that just hit you [AT]	
Swashbuckler	Puncture	All crits confirm if using piercing melee weapon [always on]	
Swashbuckler	Feint	Feint [AT]	
Swashbuckler	Coordinated	Use Two Weapon Fighting or Two Weapon Defense [AT]	
Swashbuckler	Parry	Use an attack roll in place of your armor class [AT]	
Swashbuckler	Footwork	Gain +10ft movement if in light armor and are making at least one attack this round [AT]	
Swashbuckler	Seize the Advantage	+1d6/2 levels damage on target denied dex bonus [always on]	
Swashbuckler			
Swashbuckler	Skilled [ooc]	+1 skill points/level	
Swashbuckler	ooc		
Swashbuckler	ooc		
Swashbuckler	d8 hd		
Tactician	Fast Movement	+5 ft movement [always on]	4
Tactician	Always Prepared	store item or weapon as swift action, draw weapon or ready shield as free action [AT]	
Tactician	Trap Sense	+1/3 levels perceiving traps, avoiding their effects [always on]	
Tactician	Improved Delay	Delay action does not adjust initiative in the next round  [always on]	
Tactician	Right Place, Right Time	Make immediate 5ft step [AT]	
Tactician	Foresight	+3 to initiative [always on]	
Tactician	Sidestep Blow	Attack that just hit you missed instead [AT]	
Tactician	Lunging Attack	Adds 5ft to the reach of any melee weapon [AT]	
Tactician	Ready for Anything	Use any Combat feat [AT]	
Tactician	Expert Tactician	Allies gain +1 to hit and damage per 2 of your levels on target you just struck [AT]	
Tactician			
Tactician			
Tactician	Logistics [ooc]	Treat strength as 2 higher for load purposes, cross country movement 10% more efficient for tactician and his allies	
Tactician	Skilled [ooc]	+1 skill points /level	
Tactician	ooc		
Tactician	d10 hd		
Tactician	shields proficiency		
Tactician	Medium Armor		
Tactician	Archery Proficiency		

[Orion]

the thing is, while tonng down buff spells does make casters less awesome, your stated desire was to nerf casters to avoid "rocket tag."

However, you don't seem to have done anything to reduce the ability of wizards to instantly subdue groups with powerful save-or-dies.

[Lich-Loved]

I hate to break it to you, but even with your changes spellcasters make warriors look like weak sauce.

They just do it in full plate and tower shields now.

To do what you seem to want to do, you'd need to remove Alteration, Evocation, Illusion, Enchantment, and Conjuration. And a few Necromancy spells.

Well at first I did this. In fact, What I really did was break the spells down by school and casters were allowed to pick 2 minor schools and 1 major school (plus they gained a "universal" school as a major school and all spells therein for free). If you had Minor access to a school, you could only cast spells levels 1-3 in that school, major access was levels 1-9. Furthermore I moved spells around a bit so no one school was a must-have (fly went to Air for example, so it cost a bit to get it as Air spells were not the greatest.). This *really* fixed the caster problem, but was too much of a nerf. We are still going back and forth on this in my playtest sessions, but it looks like the answer lies somewhere between "pick any spells you want" and choose "school affinities" as we originally tried. Also, with the loss of my wiki, I cannot print out all the of spell tweaks I made. I know, for example, glitterdust has no blindness component for example. I know that with incomplete information this isn't helping showcase the full system, but my point was to put it out there for discussion.

As far as casting in plate - nah, it happened at lower levels but casters like the mobility of not wearing it later.

I am curious why you think these changes are not good enough on the face of them. Can you give me an example of why you think this is still broken? I concede a 3rd level caster can cast web, but as it only lasts while he donates mindspace to it, he can't do nearly as much as he once could. If he happens to have a defensive spell up (like shield or mage armor), then he has no ability to cast any other spell. It completely changes the dynamic.

[Kaelik]

So your solution to combat being too fast and deadly is to make the Wizard choose between either casting Web, or standing in a corner not playing the game with buffs?

How is that going to help at all?

Now all level 3 Wizards still cast Web, they just never waste any time on buffs, like I don't know, anything they would cast on the fighter.

Failtastic of you.

Mindspace is not a bad concept, you are missing the use. The use is not to reduce Rocket Tag, because it doesn't do that at all, it only affects buffs.

What you want to do is pick a mindspace amount that allows a Wizard to hold maybe 2 buffs at level 1, 3 if they never want to use offensive spells with a duration, up to 12-1 buffs at level 20, and then you make it clear that the entire purpose is to allow you to have X spells active at once, where X is a number that doesn't interfere with your offense at all.

Because then, instead of tracking durations, you just say, hey I have X buffs active and you drop one to get a new one.

But the part where you tell a Wizard "You can either cast Haste or you can cast Fireball, but as soon as you cast Haste, you are giving up the ability to cast Fireball until you no longer want a haste."

Then you are just ass raping Wizards who even try to play ay game besides rocket tag, because you have done nothing to reduce the Strength of the rockets, and everything to prevent people from buying rocket deflectors.

[Lich-Loved]

the thing is, while tonng down buff spells does make casters less awesome, your stated desire was to nerf casters to avoid "rocket tag."

However, you don't seem to have done anything to reduce the ability of wizards to instantly subdue groups with powerful save-or-dies.

Yes, I just realized I didn't mention it in the first post. Monsters gained 1AP per 3 HD. Brute monsters virtually always used this AP for subbing a fort save instead of a reflex or will. Now, this didn't prevent the casters from trying to re-affect the targets in later rounds, but it did usually mean they were good enough to close in 1 v 1 same game tests. This really started to make a difference in the mid levels (9+) when monsters had 3 saves they could make and casters had to devote mindspace to defensive spells lest they end up in melee range defenseless. Again, with mirror image moved to level 4 illusion, only illusionists could access it. Being an illusionist meant you were NOT going to have access to any other 4th+ level spells in any other school so your only response was to look for spells you could cast in the minor schools to which you had access. The real debate right now in my playtest group is how many minor schools should a caster type have access to. Too many and they start to romp, too few and they lack options of balanced defense and offense.

I know my previous posts didn't mention these changes. The fact is there are a bunch of them and I really need to get the wiki back up so I can extract them wholesale. I will check to see if I have a spreadsheet somewhere with the adjusted spell levels and their schools and post that as well so as to further flesh out the concept of the system. In total though, a combination of limited spell selection, limited spells known, particularly nasty spells being moved to a higher level requiring specialization in that school to access them really toned casters down. Sadly all of notes are in my wiki, so I have to go off my somewhat hazy memory. I do think the system/approach can be considered though, without every niggling detail.

[K]

I am curious why you think these changes are not good enough on the face of them. Can you give me an example of why you think this is still broken? I concede a 3rd level caster can cast web, but as it only lasts while he donates mindspace to it, he can't do nearly as much as he once could. If he happens to have a defensive spell up (like shield or mage armor), then he has no ability to cast any other spell. It completely changes the dynamic.

I didn't say "broken", I said "makes the warriors looks like weak sauce."

First of all, no spellcaster is going to cast buff spells any more. Mage Armor and Shield don't make any sense when Full Plate and Tower Shields are on the table, they don't cost any mindspace, and they are better by a sizable amount and can be enchanted.

What people will do is cast the biggest combat spells they have over and over. Whether those are combat control or just direct damage depends entirely on how you nerfed those spells.

Basically you've reinvented the problem of spell points, but added the problem of at-wills. Without rewriting the entire spell list of the schools I mentioned, your changes won't do what you want them to do.

Your playtest group may have not run into these problems, but that doesn't mean other groups won't.

[Username17]

Wizards are not substantially more powerful than Rangers in 3.x because their basic class mechanics make them so. Their basic class mechanics are incredibly shitty. They only get to use their class features a very limited number of times a day, and without the enhancement of those class features, they are basically a commoner.

They are incredibly powerful because the actual text of stinking cloud is basically that you cast it and then you win the fight. And that's the text on web, and Evard's black tentacles, and a bunch of other conjuration spells. Or that if charm monster goes off, you not only win the fight, but you also have a level appropriate meat shield for the next week (and the spell is wholly renewable, and in any case can be made non-magically ultra permanent by spending a few minutes and making a DC 15 Diplomancy check).

So you fucking around with the Wizard's core casting mechanics is basically pointless. What you need to do is to pull a 4e: rewrite the Wizard's entire fucking spell list so that nothing on it is especially superior to whatever balance point you decide to go with. So long as cloud of bewilderment exists, anything you do with spell points or mindspace or spell chakra, or whatever basically doesn't mean shit. Because taking one action to drop four enemies out of combat for 2-5 rounds is so much better than anything it is theoretically possible for a PHB Fighter of any level to ever do that it's just silly.

You cannot rationally expect to set anything anywhere to any power level balance point that is less than the PHB wizard so log as you are making function calls to the PHB Wizard Spell List.

-Username17

[ggroy]

[Kaelik]

This is especially the case for a 1E AD&D magic user. Without the spells, the magic user isn't much better than a level 0 human for the first five levels.

I propose a new rule. People aren't allowed to make shitty meaningless references to 1e D&D in threads that have nothing to do with 1e.

I don't go piss in "Ends of the Matrix" by talking about Wizards teleporting and using Wall of Force in the Matrix, or d20 Iron by the same thing, or aWoD with the same thing, so can we please not shit in every thread by talking about how 1e D&D is when we are talking about changing the rules of 3e D&D?

[ggroy]

[Lich-Loved]

You cannot rationally expect to set anything anywhere to any power level balance point that is less than the PHB wizard so log as you are making function calls to the PHB Wizard Spell List.

I saw this right away of course, which is why I gave foes the ability to swap saves. It stands to reason that if I reduce all saves to 0 then a wizard wins with every spell, and if I raise all saves of all foes to +infinity, the wizard is basically unable to affect his foe (except for those spells with no save). Given this, therei s a point where saves can be set so spells are not a sure thing. However, I did not want to fuck with the RNG, so I borrowed the Tomes mechanic of allowing foes to swap to their good save and allowed this a few times a combat. This way, a stinking cloud really did not win. The wizard may start at range and with initiative, but stinking cloud or web could be avoided. And of course, a stinking cloud or web only exists as long as the wizard devotes mindspace to it.

In checking back over my notes, I also recall we pretty quickly removed the DC bonus to saves based on ability score. So spells had a fixed DC of 10 + spell level. This was another change that limited the effectiveness of spells.

You seem adamant that no fix can be made to limit wizard power as long as the spell text remains as-is, but I have to ask that if mechanics are provided that:

(1) keep spell save DCs from going insane
(2) give foes the ability to shift a save to a Good save
(3) prevent wizards from having access to essentially unlimited flexibility through massive spell selections
(4) prevent use of scrolls/wands/potions to get around spells per day
(5) prevent wizards from having no cost to keep multiple spells running

there is still no way to keep wizards from winning the game? I guess I don't want to believe it, those are pretty substantial nerfs. I am not demanding I am right, but can you see no way to make it work simply because the spells themselves are so powerfully written?

[Username17]

I saw this right away of course, which is why I gave foes the ability to swap saves.

No.

People don't even get saves against losing when their team is stuck in a web, black tentacles, or acid fog.

Secondly, giving people a bonus to saves does not actually make a Save-or-Die not win the game, it just makes it less likely to work.

If you can ever get a charm monster off against a level-appropriate brute monster, your Wizard has contributed more to that battle than any of the other characters - and he'll keep contributing more than all the other characters or the rest of the level even if all he is doing is firing a light crossbow - because an extra level appropriate Earth Elemental is gong to be doing at least as much ass kicking as the other characters and is totally gravy.

I you want to set the power level to less than the PHB wizard, you have to rewrite the entire spell list to be something that doesn't do all the crazy powerful crap that the D&D spell list does. There is literally no other choice. And you flailing around with high level function calls like fucking with how Wizards cast spells or what numbers Frost Giants add to saving throws really doesn't change anything. It's annoying, and it's hard to learn, but if you have to cast web because you've set cloud of bewilderment to automatically fail, the Wizard still wins!

The D&D Wizard is his list of power cards. And nothing you do will mean jack shit unless you are willing to sit down and rewrite those. You cannot make function calls to the Wizard Spell List i you don't want Wizards to behave like D&D Wizards. You. Can't. Do. That.

-Username17

[Lich-Loved]

Shit.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

This is especially the case for a 1E AD&D magic user. Without the spells, the magic user isn't much better than a level 0 human for the first five levels.

I propose a new rule. People aren't allowed to make shitty meaningless references to 1e D&D in threads that have nothing to do with 1e.

I don't go piss in "Ends of the Matrix" by talking about Wizards teleporting and using Wall of Force in the Matrix, or d20 Iron by the same thing, or aWoD with the same thing, so can we please not shit in every thread by talking about how 1e D&D is when we are talking about changing the rules of 3e D&D?

That was not a meaningless reference and there was nothing wrong wth mentioning it.

[Koumei]

Shit.

Precisely. Now you see one of the reasons why it was decided "Let's make Wizards the balance point". Because making a new (just about everything else) is actually less time-consuming than reworking all the spells (there should only be a thousand or so, if we include supplements) and the monsters.

[MGuy]

Shit.

I know how you feel. I hit that brick wall 6 months ago and decided to bite the bullet and rework the spells. Turns out that when you start doing that you start having to rework the ENTIRE system as well. It happened like this: Tried to just reexamine spells - spells still did more than everyone else, tried to give them a power down - still did things no one else could do, made them available to everyone - still were a better option than everything else, started retooling the spells - led to retooling feats and skills and then eventually classes and related abilities, threw my hands up and said fuck it I'll just redo everything from the ground up - turns out is more than a couple of ass loads worth of work. I JUST ironed out how skills and basic combat works (numbers and everything) and JUST got back around to working spells.

[Lokathor]

I'd love to see that MGuy, if you feel confident showing it to others.

[K]

Shit.

I know how you feel. I hit that brick wall 6 months ago and decided to bite the bullet and rework the spells. Turns out that when you start doing that you start having to rework the ENTIRE system as well. It happened like this: Tried to just reexamine spells - spells still did more than everyone else, tried to give them a power down - still did things no one else could do, made them available to everyone - still were a better option than everything else, started retooling the spells - led to retooling feats and skills and then eventually classes and related abilities, threw my hands up and said fuck it I'll just redo everything from the ground up - turns out is more than a couple of ass loads worth of work. I JUST ironed out how skills and basic combat works (numbers and everything) and JUST got back around to working spells.

Frank and I did the Tomes as spot fixes because we knew the only other option was to rewrite hundreds of pages of spells AND rules, and at that point you might as well write a new game because your product won't look like any current version of DnD when you are done.

So yeh, we wrote invitations to Crazytown for the warriors so they could at least kinda join the spellcasters, rather than try to dismantle Crazytown for everyone.

I think once you've learned the lessons of the many versions of DnD, you should be on good footing for making your own game. Ideally, you want the open-endedness of 3e without the crazy, and the unity of 4e without the extreme lockdown on actions.

[MGuy]

I'd love to see that MGuy, if you feel confident showing it to others.

I'm confident enough to show anything. I'm not a game designer nor am I planning on pretending I'm good at it. It is however far, far from finished. The only thing I think I have closest to 100% done is the skills and the basics of combat.

[Lich-Loved]

So, while the overall system has met a grisly death, does anyone care to comment on the WBL suggestion for "magical craft points"?