So long, and thanks for all the fish

[Lago PARANOIA]

I've definitely used 'retarded' as a synonym for 'stupid,' and I started trying to drop that sometime in the past few years without even really making the conscious decision, I think. It just made me increasingly comfortable and tapered off.

Why is 'retarded' bad but not 'stupid'? I have heard certain leftists saying words like 'stupid' or 'dumb' is ableist, too.

[Kaelik]

I've definitely used 'retarded' as a synonym for 'stupid,' and I started trying to drop that sometime in the past few years without even really making the conscious decision, I think. It just made me increasingly comfortable and tapered off.

Why is 'retarded' bad but not 'stupid'? I have heard certain leftists saying words like 'stupid' or 'dumb' is ableist, too.

While people can be offended for different reasons, something that was a medical term used to refer to certain people in 2009 being used as an insult could reasonably offend the people who were medically classified under that term in 2009 more than a word that was last used medically in 1977, when many of those people were not alive.

If a 53 year old asks you not to use the term idiot you should probably also comply.

[Omegonthesane]

Besides the point that it might in theory be a particularly sensitive medical diagnosis, the argument for avoiding the use of the term "stupid" or "idiot" or the like is that they are contextually insults that deride a person's intellectual capacity, and insulting someone's intellectual capacity implicitly assigns moral value to intellectual capacity.

I honestly think that stinks of slippery slope fallacy myself but it's generally pretty easy to be more precise than "Shitmuffin is stupid" if you want to insult someone's decision making processes.

[Koumei]

We're creatures that think. Our ability to think is beyond that of other creatures (particularly in regards to retaining and sharing information, whether or not the information is useful or correct). That sort of means there are two key things:
1. A fundamental and easily understood insult is "You don't think" / "You are bad at thinking" / "You think the wrong way". Yes, that implies "You're sub-human". But the point is, it is an easy insult to use, and even people who have no problem with being called cruel, racist, bigoted etc. will typically have a problem with this (the problem with "Only criticise people for their moral failings" is of course these people tend not to care, whereas they will have a public meltdown if you say "You have small hands").
2. People with developmental problems and acquired brain injuries are some of the most disadvantaged people, and need assistance, and are people even though their disability can provide one of the hardest communication/understanding barriers.

So basically, any term that is used to describe people with developmental problems such as Down's Syndrome is going to be repurposed as an insult, and you probably don't want to do that, and you kind of need to accept that whatever the correct term is now, it probably won't be as too many people turn it into an insult, and then eventually some of the terms become "pure insults" used only for "You're thinking badly" and don't really have any remaining connotations towards intellectual/developmental disabilities, and lose all implied "you should be handled under a eugenics program". Like the word moron, which was really cruel once upon a time but these days people say it to their own children when the children elect to do ill-advised things without stopping to think first.

[Zinegata]

This stupid thread is still ongoing? Really?

I'll just point out for any lurker or newcomer that pretty much every single person here now decrying the use of "ableist" language used to call me and many other people "retards" and other ableist terms. All the bloody time.

So don't be fooled. This is not a "safe space". It's just a bunch of hypocrites desperately trying to bring in new blood (or retain old blood) because they're running out of people they can bully and call names.

[Kaelik]

I'll just point out for any lurker or newcomer that pretty much every single person here now decrying the use of "ableist" language used to call me and many other people "retards" and other ableist terms. All the bloody time.

You can literally find a post from half the people in this thread explicitly saying they used to do these things but stopped and a brief explanation of why they stopped and that they regret their past use on tgd in various places.

It's almost like over the last 16 years on this forum people have changed in part because an understanding of ableism has spread through society more in the last 16 years and people who are receptive to learning and changing did so.

[Zinegata]

You can literally find a post from half the people in this thread explicitly saying they used to do these things but stopped and a brief explanation of why they stopped and that they regret their past use on tgd in various places.

And yet have you changed how you treat and talk to me one bit?

Nope.

That's exactly why I had to comment and point out this entire thread is nothing more than a charade. You make all kinds of promises to be nice and kind, and yet in reality you're still the same old bully as you always were.

It's almost like over the last 16 years on this forum people have changed in part because an understanding of ableism has spread through society more in the last 16 years and people who are receptive to learning and changing did so.

Nope, this is you showing exactly why you haven't changed in 16 years.

Shrapnel didn't leave because of evil ableist thoughts.

He left because of a much more simple reason: A person who he thought was his friend (Count) kept insulting him. That's why its the bit in bold.

Why the fuck would anyone be "friends" with an asshole like that? Why stay with toxic personalities who only use you to make themselves feel big?

The simpler reality which you and your Discord Daycare want to avoid is that you are the same sort of shitty people who get off on belittling others; no matter what kind of political wallpaper you cover yourself in.

That's the only reason you're dragging out this "ableist" discussion. To hide the simpler fact that you are so socially inept that you don't have a clue on what really triggered Shrapnel leaving.

[Kaelik]

You can literally find a post from half the people in this thread explicitly saying they used to do these things but stopped and a brief explanation of why they stopped and that they regret their past use on tgd in various places.

And yet have you changed how you treat and talk to me one bit?

Nope.

That's exactly why I had to comment and point out this entire thread is nothing more than a charade. You make all kinds of promises to be nice and kind, and yet in reality you're still the same old bully as you always were.

I mean, I did change how I talk to you, for starters I haven't called anyone the word since 2014. But I never claimed to be particularly kind and certainly not to manifestly shitty people like you.

I didn't stop calling you the r word because insulting you was mean to you, I did it because I didn't want to hurt other people who aren't you by insulting you.

[Whatever]

This discussion raises some good points. I found more here: https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magaz ... our-words/
In particular, this passage:

Conflating harmful actions with lack of intelligence does everyone a disservice. To suggest that “stupidity” that is what makes people act badly undermines any real accountability. The causes of problematic behavior rarely have anything to do with mental acuity, and we can’t properly address harmful behavior while being so reductive about its causes. Carelessness, bias, hatred, greed, closed-mindedness, indifference – these are the traits that lead to oppression. Our intelligence is not the issue so much as our sense of compassion and justice.

A person can be unintelligent and still know right from wrong. There are people with cognitive disabilities who I respect a thousand times more than those who are supposedly more abled. They have stronger principles, seek to better themselves, and are committed to being good people. They are just capable of being sensitive and caring as everyone else. To imply that they aren’t is outrageous.

It's worth remembering that very few people argue in bad faith out of ignorance or inability. We're better served when we call that out for what it is.

[Zinegata]

I mean, I did change how I talk to you, for starters I haven't called anyone the word since 2014.

Let me spell it out for the lurkers and newbies, because Kaelik really has no shame.

Count was not the only member that Shrapnel called out for "ableist" insults.

He actually also called out Adventurer's Almanac.

"Because he wasn't alone in using ableist insults adventurer's almanac"

Why did Shrapnel use tiny font to call out Adventurer's Almanac?

My guess is because he knows full well that Adventurer's Almanac is part of Kaelik's clique.

And that Kaelik, as usual, will raise another pointless shitstorm to deny his role in Shrapnel's departure.

So this sob story that Kaelik is pushing about how he's changed over the past 16 years, and he hasn't insulted anyone since 2014?

It's all a lie.

This is just Kaelik and his clique getting caught driving off another long-time member again, and trying to propaganda their way out of responsibility.


===

By the way, since Kaelik is claiming that they are really so regretful and have totally changed, let me just show Adventurer's Almanac's only post in this thread:

"I always wonder when people make a big fuss about leaving... where are they even going? Not that it's really my business, but it's a general thought I have, especially with the ongoing consolidation of the internet."

Yep, ZERO contrition. No admission that he was using ableist terms and promising to stop like Kaelik was claiming. Instead he was literally saying "It's none of my business".

Really, there are lies, and incredibly stupid lies that only Kaelik has the gall to keep pushing



===

[Kaelik]

Why did Shrapnel use tiny font to call out Adventurer's Almanac?

My guess is because he knows full well that Adventurer's Almanac is part of Kaelik's clique.

HAHAHA. Your contention that Shrapnel typed something in small font to hide it from me instead of not typing it is really funny. But in fact, AA is not part of my "clique" which Shrapnel knows better than you ever could and in fact I specifically called out AA for his ableism in the same place that Shrapnel did because I agree with Shrapnel.

So this sob story that Kaelik is pushing about how he's changed over the past 16 years, and he hasn't insulted anyone since 2014?

I would suggest that if you feel the need to lie about what I said in order to impugn it, that you might just want to not go after that specific statement.

I haven't said that I haven't insulted anyone since 2014. I said I stopped using a specific ableist insult in 2014.

By the way, since Kaelik is claiming that they are really so regretful and have totally changed, let me just show Adventurer's Almanac's only post in this thread:

"I always wonder when people make a big fuss about leaving... where are they even going? Not that it's really my business, but it's a general thought I have, especially with the ongoing consolidation of the internet."

Yep, ZERO contrition. No admission that he was using ableist terms and promising to stop like Kaelik was claiming. Instead he was literally saying "It's none of my business".

Really, someone I specifically called out for ableism in the past is still doing ableism. Fuck, guess that's egg on MY face.

[Zinegata]

I specifically called out AA for his ableism in the same place that Shrapnel did because I agree with Shrapnel.

Ah yes that's why you never replied to AA's post here at all.

Facts are meaningless as long as you can lie with a straight face.

I haven't said that I haven't insulted anyone since 2014. I said I stopped using a specific ableist insult in 2014.

"Technicality, I win" - Kaelik's Final Argument of Kings.

Nobody gives a shit of what specific insults you use. That is precisely why you have no real friends and why you don't understand that ableism wasn't the root cause of Shrapnel leaving.

Again, it's more basic. When a friend tells you not to call them a certain name, cut it out.

But you're so fucking socially inept you can't even understand something that simple. Instead you keep pretending its about some higher political transformation.

Really keep on pretending you can live your life like Ben Shapiro. You obviously take after his style of pretending any kind of lie can be justified by your magical politics.

====

[MGuy]

I'm pretty sure lurkers and newbies will be quick to observe that kaelik is not in charge of AdvAlm and will find it strange that in response to what kaelik said about his own behavior Zine is pointing to kaelik and saying "What about this other poster?!"

That being said I'm not big on using the R slur these days precisely because I've caught wind that it's not good for them. I have no fuckin' idea when I stopped using it, it just fell out of use with me. I'd find it really weird if someone in response to this said "Well what about this random person who's agreed with some of your posts huh?! What about them?!".

Personally I'd prefer people just respect it if it comes up but regardless of how I feel about the subject I'm really sure that I don't need to remind everyone that the 'no politics' rule is still in effect and just because it was specifically removed from MPSIM I do not think that means it's 'ok' anywhere else, including here.

[Zinegata]

I'm pretty sure lurkers and newbies will be quick to observe that kaelik is not in charge of AdvAlm and will find it strange that in response to what kaelik said about his own behavior Zine is pointing to kaelik and saying "What about this other poster?!"

Actually lurkers and newbies will very likely suspect Adventurer's Almanac is an alt-account for Kaelik. Especially given how insecure Denners love to accuse people they pick on of being alt-accounts. Literally every other account in the Den must be silva's based on some people's posts.

But sure, keep on enabling the assholes. It really just shows how this entire thread is premised on hypocrisy.

[Kaelik]

Ah yes that's why you never replied to AA's post here at all.

Yes, I replied to his usage of it in the thread where he used it and Shrapnel asked him to stop and he said he would keep doing it because he's an asshole and likes being an asshole and won't respect asking him to not be ableist.

I don't reply to a lot of things people say.

I haven't said that I haven't insulted anyone since 2014. I said I stopped using a specific ableist insult in 2014.

"Technicality, I win" - Kaelik's Final Argument of Kings.

Nobody gives a shit of what specific insults you use.

I think "the thing I said is true" is a pretty good "win" in this extremely limited argument. Some people do in fact care what specific insults I use. In this case I do, which is the deciding issue, I don't want to use ableist insults, but also, separately, some other people probably care if I use ableist insults, like Shrapnel, a person who's opinion I respect.

[MGuy]

I'll leave you to whatever you want to believe about kaelik but I'm not sure what you think you're going to get with this 'enabling assholes' line. I don't need to defend kaelik. What I'm pointing at is a bad argument. I've had it out with kaelik numerous times over the years but whether or not I like someone personally doesn't mean I can't agree or disagree with a given argument. Your 'argument' here about kaelik is bad. I get you have a personal beef with... well the entire board it seems, but you're not going to get anywhere with terrible posts like "You're bad because this other random person did a thing!".

I'm not sure what you even want Zine. You just seem mad and I have no idea why you haven't left if you're going to make your sole contribution to all further discussions about how you are just so gosh darn mad about everything that goes on here. Unlike Pl who, as far as I can tell, at least wants to give advice (even if the way it's delivered isn't always done well) you seem to be on a one man quest to just try to get people to argue with you about nothing in particular. It'd be much better if you either just came to terms with your deep seated hatred of these boards and went on to better places or just put everyone you don't like on ignore so you can get on with talking about gaming or something constructive.

[Zinegata]

Yes, I replied to his usage of it in the thread where he used it and Shrapnel asked him to stop and he said he would keep doing it because he's an asshole and likes being an asshole and won't respect asking him to no be ableist.

Right, that's why you totally called AA out here too.

Oh wait you didn't. Instead you got all hot and bothered when I pointed out that people were being hypocrites and extending this ableism nonsense while not actually admitting to the culprits.

I think "the thing I said is true" is a pretty good "win" in this extremely limited argument.

Uh-huh. Tell fbmf that next time another shitstorm happens.

You ain't fooling anyone outside of the people who are stuck here.

[Kaelik]

You ain't fooling anyone outside of the people who are stuck here.

I think you have amply demonstrated that no one on earth is more stuck here than you, and I'm really sorry that someone keeps forcing you to post here, mostly because of how it makes other people who aren't you suffer.

[Zinegata]

I'll leave you to whatever you want to believe about kaelik but I'm not sure what you think you're going to get with this 'enabling assholes' line. I don't need to defend kaelik. What I'm pointing at is a bad argument. I've had it out with kaelik numerous times over the years but whether or not I like someone personally doesn't mean I can't agree or disagree with a given argument. Your 'argument' here about kaelik is bad.

Bullshit. Your old boys club can keep on covering for each other's asses. That's why you try to muddle the issue with statements like this:

I'm not sure what you even want Zine.

When I said exactly what I wanted: For newbies to know exactly what they're getting into.

This ain't a "safe space".

It's just a place where people talk about ableism and political correctness, but where the leading personalities remain so socially inept that they can't understand that it's not the terminology that's the problem. It's the fact that they can't "switch off" being assholes.

And if we're going to go into technicalities: You argument is bullshit. Shrapnel left in 2020, despite Kaelik lecturing AA and supposedly stopped using ableist terms in 2014.

So very clearly things did not improve. Indeed it got so bad someone left because of it.

Hell, you got rid of Frank and stuff apparently blew up even worse.

Stop lying to yourselves, and more importantly stop lying to the lurkers and newbies who are still coming here from time to time holding out hope it can still be salvaged.

It's not the terminology or the politics that is the problem. It's the fact that this board is still full of assholes, and the terminology/politics only enables them to continue their bullying behavior.

[Zinegata]

I think you have amply demonstrated that no one on earth is more stuck here than you, and I'm really sorry that someone keeps forcing you to post here, mostly because of how it makes other people who aren't you suffer.

Still trying to hide you didn't call out AA here eh?

And Kaelik, I have not been "stuck" in the Den for years. That's why I now know why a lot of the design work done here was shit to begin with.

Again, that's why you can't win. You just keep making up fanfiction about other people. I know where I've been and what I've done. You're still making up ridiculous shit about me just like you've always had.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Don't drag me into this, man.

[Kaelik]

And if we're going to go into technicalities: You argument is bullshit. Shrapnel left in 2020, despite Kaelik lecturing AA and supposedly stopped using ableist terms in 2014.

AA refused to change and so did Count. If you stop filtering everything through your weird interpretations you might discover that I never claimed everyone else stopped using the term in 2014.

I think you have amply demonstrated that no one on earth is more stuck here than you, and I'm really sorry that someone keeps forcing you to post here, mostly because of how it makes other people who aren't you suffer.

Still trying to hide you didn't call out AA here eh?

And Kaelik, I have not been "stuck" in the Den for years. That's why I now know why a lot of the design work done here was shit to begin with.

Again, that's why you can't win. You just keep making up fanfiction about other people. I know where I've been and what I've done. You're still making up ridiculous shit about me just like you've always had.

It's not my fanficition, just a straight forward implication of the fact that you announced you were never going to post again and you keep posting against your will. Again, I really wish that no one was forcing you to post here.

[DSMatticus]

Zinegata, you're an obnoxious, dishonest asshole. Seriously, you jumped into a conversation about why people have adjusted their language to try to catch less innocent bystanders in the crossfire of their shitflinging with "YEAH BUT YOU USED TO THOUGH!" Thank you for the keen insight that is literally that thing we just said two seconds. You're not engaging with the discussion. You're not adding to the discussion. You're venting. You hate us, you want everyone to know you still hate us, and you are nothing if not loudly indulgent of yourself, so here we are.

I do not give a single fuck if I hurt your feelings. We are not friends. I don't even vaguely respect you the way I would many of the otherwise stranger-acquaintances here. Shrapnel, on the other hand, is pretty alright. I don't have any real problems with him. If I said something that hurt him, I would be at least a little bummed. That is why instead of calling you ableist slurs, which might offend both you and Shrapnel, I'm calling you an obnoxious dishonest asshole, which is unlikely to offend Shrapnel.

Now, I didn't actually make this post to remind you you're a shitty person with shitty posts. That's just a little bonus. In fact, I'm just going to go ahead and slip you on ignore and move right the fuck along. I made this post because before you came along some posters were having what could have been the start of a genuine discussion and my response to you does a decent job of illuminating a very good reason why we might want to adjust our language that is largely unaffected by how those debates turn out.

It's not about the implicit assignment of moral value to intellectual capacity (though that's an interesting discussion in and of itself, and I think it starts with parsing out the difference between 'value' and 'moral value'). It's not about the inevitability of the euphemism treadmill, which is pretty damn real. It's about how there are people out there you probably don't mean to hurt but accidentally could. And to some extent that's inevitable - emotions aren't particularly rational, we all have things that remind us of our darkest moments, etcetera, etcetera. But some things are more obvious landmines than others, and you can alleviate a lot of unintended hurt by avoiding the obvious landmines while still being prepared to accept that you're going to step on some of the less obvious ones. I think I once said you can't bubble-wrap culture, and probably wouldn't want to even if you could - pain is a part of life and art and the human condition. I still believe that, but it comes with a lot more qualifiers these days about okay maybe we can put a cork on that sharp stabby bit and throw some caution tape over the second floor door to nothing.

[Red_Rob]

The irony of Zinegata shouting that everyone else is the asshole, all the while continuing with his incredibly obnoxious crusade to shit on anyone and everyone is quite amazing to behold.

I mean, Zine was always like this so it isn't a surprise that he appears and immediately starts with his listen-you-heathens-to-my-pearls-of-wisdom spiel, but the fact he thinks anyone else here could possibly be a bigger asshole than he's being now is astounding.

[MGuy]

I'm only surprised that zine went with acknowledging that they are purposefully shitposting under the guise of "warning newbies". I'd give it a 7/10 on the honesty scale. Almost saying that they just don't want other people to post here. I guess if it were that direct it would be brazenly admitting that they are intentionally shit posting to get other people not to post here.