The Gaming Den

I know, niche thing, I guess.

But as I'm in (occasionally running, often doing writing for) a Pokemon D&D game, it keeps coming up.

I know the Monster Tamer says they behave like Summoned monsters:

Monster Tamer, wiki version wrote:Control Monster (Ex): A Monster Tamer can have a number of Monsters in Soul Prisons equal to her Charisma Modifier be “Controlled.” A Controlled Monster behaves like a summoned monster when released from its Soul Prison, and is essentially under the control of the Monster Tamer. A Monster Tamer cannot control a Monster whose Challenge Rating is equal to or greater than the Monster Tamer’s Caster Level. Remember the rubric for increasing challenge rating based on extra hit dice or class levels to determine if the Monster is controlled. An uncontrolled Monster will act as it sees fit, possibly going on a rampage, running away, or simply sleeping until it is returned to its Soul Prison. Furthermore, Dragon type Monsters are harder to control than other Monsters, and use twice their CR (or their own CR + 4, whichever is less) to determine whether they will obey their Monster Tamer. A Controlled Monster cannot use any Summoning ability to summon uncontrolled Monsters.

More than one controlled Monster can be out of their balls at any one time – but only the first one released behaves like a summoned monster – any subsequent released Monster will act normally, usually standing around and watching events transpire, or sleeping (extreme events can cause them to take direct action at DM’s option).

Increases to Charisma only affect the number of Monsters which can be controlled if the increase would affect spells per day. As such, effects like Eagles Splendor do not increase the number of controllable Monsters, but a Cloak of Charisma would. Once a Monster Tamer has reached the limit of the number of Monsters which can be controlled, the Monster Tamer cannot control any more until one or more of the controlled Monsters are released from control or killed. Releasing a Monster from control takes about 10 minutes. Control can be reasserted, but only if the Monster Tamer has the ability to control that many Monsters.

But it doesn't say they are summoned monsters for mechanical purposes.

So, the way I see it, there are four options-

• Pokemon are Summoned (or perhaps Called) creatures
• Pokemon are NPC party members, akin to followers/cohorts
• Pokemon are something like a familiar/animal companion/special mount
• Pokemon are kinda like a necromancer's undead horde

Maybe there are other options that don't come to mind, or my brain just sees as fitting into one of those. But the mechanical implications are pretty different for each of those. If they're Summoned creatures, then they benefit from Augment Summoning, Greenbound Summoning, etc. If they're something like a familiar or animal companion, then they benefit from things that affect them, like the various feats that change your familiar's creature type (so you can have an undead pikachu without needing to fuck with templates). If they're like when a necromancer creates/controls undead, then that leaves open the idea of Pokemon versions of Corpsecrafted et al.

Personally, I kind of think that, except for pokemon you get as an actual familiar/companion/whatever, or perhaps pokemon that you've specifically raised through necromantic shenanigans, they should be mechanically treated as summoned creatures.

Obviously they're not summoned, because A) they existed before you caught them, they don't just spawn into existence out of the trainer's balls and I know I could have worded that better, I elected not to. And B) you don't want someone else Dispelling them out of existence or casting the spell that lets you steal the loyalty of summoned monsters.

Likewise, an Animal Companion or Familiar basically starts existing when chosen - the class feature causes them to exist. You basically don't even have to do anything for those creatures to be added to the party, they're just there and the Druid can straight-up say "I get a T-Rex at this level", you don't have to encounter a T-Rex in game.

I think they're basically followers/cohorts, except for the bit where games that allow cohorts often let you straight-up design your own second character and place them in, fully formed, rather than picking from who is available in the world. They existed before you caught them, indeed you were only able to catch them because they existed and you encountered them.

I think we can all agree that it's important that no feats exist affect your pokemon just by dint of you having them: they don't get extra hit dice from Natural Bond or whatever it's called, you can't use Improved Familiar or the "Let my Mount be a Dragon" feat to turn them into a different creature, they don't just get bonuses because you took Greenbound Summoning or Corpsecrafter* feats, fucking obviously. If people have feats, which I'm still only talking about hypothetically, then your pokemon are affected the same as the other PCs: a feat that gives you some kind of aura probably does work. A feat that lets you Aid Other as an Immediate Action would work. Shitty [Teamwork] feats from PF would work (if the pokemon also has them). Just like how if you cast Haste or Energy Immunity, you could jolly well cast it on your pokemon, your friends and yourself (but couldn't cast Nature's Favour or Fortify Familiar or a Personal spell on them).

*If you used an actual spell to turn a pokemon into an Undead you control, then Corpsecrafter would presumably apply. Note that a magical ritual from a feat isn't a spell, and Corpsecrafter doesn't just say "all Undead you make", so chances are you're not making a Pikawraith, you're taking Pikachu and casting Animate Dead, adding the shitty Skeleton/Zombie template and you're probably at a net loss. Desecrated areas with altars to evil deities, on the other hand, would provide their benefits because that just happens to all Undead that are made in the area.

If you go by the original games then mechanically they are also sometimes items, garments, basic game menu functions, vehicles, punk kit cars?, gods, basic forces of nature, time and space itself, artificial mechanical or biological or biomechanical creations, nurses and policewomen (claiming they are just related is an obvious poor cover story by the Ilumimonati).

Pretty sure mom's and professors and trainers are pokemon considering commonalities, occurrence rates behavior patterns and lack of explanations. Sure as hell not natural in any real world sense.

Note that summoning doesn't actually create a new creature when you cast it, it makes specific statements about what happens to a creature when it is summoned. Regular summon spells presuppose the existence of arbitrarily large numbers of the creature you're trying to summon out on some plane somewhere.

They're animals but not Animal Companions - they're like horses or dogs that you can buy. They have their own existing stat block and your abilities don't modify their basic stats - but it may give you bonuses to handling/commanding them.

Koumei wrote: ↑

Tue May 14, 2024 6:33 am

Obviously they're not summoned, because A) they existed before you caught them, they don't just spawn into existence out of the trainer's balls and I know I could have worded that better, I elected not to. And B) you don't want someone else Dispelling them out of existence or casting the spell that lets you steal the loyalty of summoned monsters.

So, I get your argument. Yes, from a meta perspective that is a difference. But within the game text, summoned creatures ostensibly exist somewhere before you summon them:

SRD wrote:A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

That's why Creation is a separate subschool. Now, while I recognize that people here would hate it if a DM houseruled "you have to be familiar with a creature before you can summon something like it," pokemon seem to be similar to that situation. Calling might be a better way to look at pokemon, since it means they can't be dispelled, but Pokemon act a lot like Summoned creatures when they "die" in that when their hp reach 0, they just go back to their ball.

Likewise, an Animal Companion or Familiar basically starts existing when chosen - the class feature causes them to exist. You basically don't even have to do anything for those creatures to be added to the party, they're just there and the Druid can straight-up say "I get a T-Rex at this level", you don't have to encounter a T-Rex in game.

Likewise, textually, animal companions and familiars ostensibly exist somewhere before they matter to the game:

SRD, Familiars wrote:A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a sorcerer or wizard. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar.

I think we can all agree that it's important that no feats exist affect your pokemon just by dint of you having them: they don't get extra hit dice from Natural Bond or whatever it's called, you can't use Improved Familiar or the "Let my Mount be a Dragon" feat to turn them into a different creature, they don't just get bonuses because you took Greenbound Summoning or Corpsecrafter* feats, fucking obviously. If people have feats, which I'm still only talking about hypothetically, then your pokemon are affected the same as the other PCs: a feat that gives you some kind of aura probably does work. A feat that lets you Aid Other as an Immediate Action would work. Shitty [Teamwork] feats from PF would work (if the pokemon also has them). Just like how if you cast Haste or Energy Immunity, you could jolly well cast it on your pokemon, your friends and yourself (but couldn't cast Nature's Favour or Fortify Familiar or a Personal spell on them).

I took another look at Augment Summoning and Greenbound SummoningBeckon the Frozen (I happened to have Fb open already), rather than just relying on my vague recollection of what they do. Both affect specifically "creature(s) you conjure with any summon spell". So even if Pokemon are treated as un-dispellable summons, these feats can't affect them (unless you specifically have the ability to summon Pikachu with Summon Whatever n).

*If you used an actual spell to turn a pokemon into an Undead you control, then Corpsecrafter would presumably apply. Note that a magical ritual from a feat isn't a spell, and Corpsecrafter doesn't just say "all Undead you make", so chances are you're not making a Pikawraith, you're taking Pikachu and casting Animate Dead, adding the shitty Skeleton/Zombie template and you're probably at a net loss. Desecrated areas with altars to evil deities, on the other hand, would provide their benefits because that just happens to all Undead that are made in the area.

Similarly, I hadn't realized that Corpsecrafter specifies undead made through a spell, tho it makes sense because technically that's the primary way for PCs to make undead.


So, that's edifying. I think, in terms of mechanics, it's best to treat pokeballs as a sort of use-activated Conjuration (Summoning) item. I'm not even sure it's necessarily bad for people to be able to magically interfere with your control of pokemon through dispelling or appropriate summons (or whatever it's fucking called). But also... so far as I can tell, when you have an item that summons creatures, those creatures can't actually be dispelled because they're not the result of a summoning spell (barring items that literally cast a summoning spell). At best, you could target the pokeball and suppress its power for 1d4 rounds, which opens a different can of worms (ie, what happens to the pokemon if its pokeball gets dispelled).

But... so far as I can tell, there's no specific problem with saying that pokeballs are magic items that summon a monster they've been keyed to. Summoned monsters work almost exactly like how you'd want pokemon to work (the trainer acts as the caster, controlling them, if their hp hits 0, they are dismissed back to where they came from but are not actually physically harmed. Pokecenters just have a magic item that restores the pokemon without having to wait the 24 hours).

And if we say pokemon are summoned, well, they're not summoned by a spell, so Augment Summoning etc won't apply to them, but you could hypothetically have an Augmented Ball that affects the pokemon it catches as if by Augmented Summoning. Which, aside from having to figure out the damned cost of that, seems like a kinda cool thing.

Foxwarrior wrote: ↑

Tue May 14, 2024 4:10 pm

Note that summoning doesn't actually create a new creature when you cast it, it makes specific statements about what happens to a creature when it is summoned. Regular summon spells presuppose the existence of arbitrarily large numbers of the creature you're trying to summon out on some plane somewhere.

It helps that a lot of the things you can summon, at least with Summon Monster, are outsiders or otherwise planar things, and so, technically by the text, come from infinite planes where hypothetically arbitrarily large numbers of celestial monkeys or whatever just exist.

deaddmwalking wrote: ↑

Tue May 14, 2024 4:20 pm

They're animals but not Animal Companions - they're like horses or dogs that you can buy. They have their own existing stat block and your abilities don't modify their basic stats - but it may give you bonuses to handling/commanding them.

I mean, technically, a pokemaster does have abilities that affect their pokemon, but point taken.

Neo Phonelobster Prime wrote: ↑

Tue May 14, 2024 7:24 am

If you go by the original games then mechanically they are also sometimes items, garments, basic game menu functions, vehicles, punk kit cars?, gods, basic forces of nature, time and space itself, artificial mechanical or biological or biomechanical creations, nurses and policewomen (claiming they are just related is an obvious poor cover story by the Ilumimonati).

Pretty sure mom's and professors and trainers are pokemon considering commonalities, occurrence rates behavior patterns and lack of explanations. Sure as hell not natural in any real world sense.

I love how you're taking a deep dive into the Pokémon universe and questioning the nature of reality within it. It's true, the franchise has always blurred the lines between what's considered a 'Pokémon' and what's not. Maybe we've been too narrow-minded in our definition of what a Pokémon can be.

The Pokémon conundrum! They don't fit neatly into any D&D category. Maybe we need to create a new type of creature or magical item to represent them. Either way, the goal is to make the rules clear, consistent, and fun for everyone.

They're almost exactly like Paladin mounts.

Bonded magical creature works well, they have a few supernatural and spell-like abilities from a small list for each, they go up in HD and eventually size to get higher level effects. The guy with the balls gives them extra abilities through training time and helps them level up. They need actual healthcare and downtime for stuff like poison or critical injuries, and they follow orders really well, to the point of getting extra interrupt actions and stuff via their bonded ball guy.

And they only stay in the balls because they're treated well by their bond; it's not a prison nor a slave collar. The ball itself is just an extra-dimensional space for the pokemon to hang out in while their bonded ball guy is in town, where being a wild pokemon really sucks and they're smart enough to know it.

Probably slow regeneration while in the ball, assuming there's no bad conditions on them. This is why they stay loyal, wild pokemon have to heal slow, and it sucks, because they're still compelled to battle even without a bond. Being bonded is basically a bliss chain, fight-heal-fight-heal-fight-heal-PIKA!!!!!