The Gaming Den

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ubernoob wrote: Of particular note, is there any creature that explicitly gets to swallow whole creatures under a certain size category without referencing the creature's size.

There certainly are:
Chaos Roc (Colossal Magibeast, 33HD, Monster Manual 2)
Cloud Ray (Colossal Magibeast, 30HD, MM2)
Legendary Shark (Huge Animal, 30HD, MM2)
Orcwort (Colossal Plant, 32HD, MM2)

ubernoob wrote:Of particular note, is there any creature that explicitly gets to swallow whole creatures under a certain size category without referencing the creature's size.

This doesn't work. The Swallow Whole general rules have always said:

Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature.

Specific overrides general, and that even states as much by saying "Unless otherwise noted". So when the description for Chaos Roc specifically states "can swallow a creature of Huge size or smaller", that is your otherwise notification (and your specific to overrule the general).

Ah, I misread what he was asking. Not no reference to size.

Do be careful about what you swallow, though, because they can just cheerfully shred your vulnerable innards from inside you.

If you can push your CL up to 22nd (for 44 HD) I think you can get Hagunemnon (ELH) as a form, which lets you grab an (Ex) ability from any four nondivine creatures you feel like, though it costs a move action. I expect that would be moderately abuseable for something.

There's some feat combo in Lords of Madness that lets you use Wildshape to turn into any aberration of a given size category ([/edit]forgot about the HD limit on alternate form. Still! It's a fun ability.)

CCarter wrote:If you can push your CL up to 22nd (for 44 HD) I think you can get Hagunemnon (ELH) as a form, which lets you grab an (Ex) ability from any four nondivine creatures you feel like, though it costs a move action. I expect that would be moderately abuseable for something.

There is (I think) an Errata (CL = HD) for Shapechange.

All your examples are MM2, and so are not 3.5.

They released a small document that fixed MM2 to be in line with 3.5, which is the reason why they included its existence when naming MM3 as such.

But that said, let's crack open MM3, shall we?
Dragon Eel (Large Dragon, 14HD)
Mivilorn (Huge Magibeast, 24HD, special variant of Swallow Whole)
Odopi (Huge Aberration, 20HD)

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Well, I don't know what other forms you already have, or what you're really looking for in a form, but there are a few that immediately spring to mind.

Symbiont (FF).
-Lets you share personal-range buffs with another character.

Aspect of Sertrous (elder evils):
-Immunity to divine spells
-Elder evil immunities (polymorph, energy drain, mind-affecting)
-500 ft. blindsight,
-Constant true seeing
-No-save Dominate on anything you can grapple.
-DR 20/law and cold iron
-1000 ft. telepathy

Silthilar (Lords of Madness)
-Immune to weapon damage if your Concentration is high enough
-PaO at will

Etheral Doppelganger (MM2).
-Lets you copy any class ability that isn't granted by a deity.

Zodar (LM):
-Immunity to slashing and piercing.
-Construct immunities
-Wish

Lilitu (fiendish codex 1)
-Auto-UMD anything
-Casts Cleric spells

Dream Vestige (LM).
-Dream Travel, an exception based shadow-walk-like ability that doesn't interact with normal stuff designed to hose teleportation/etheral jaunt, could be handy for getting into the dead baby tree-house.
-Dream Vestige Cloning, since its Spawn-ability technically creates an identical creature rather than just creating another Dream Vestige.
-Undead+Incorporeal+extra huge deflection bonus to AC, if you care.

Horrific Vasuthant (MM3) has a nice Time Regression power that can be handy in a pinch.

So, is there actually any benefit to Alter Self-ing into a symbiote?

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It looks like you don't gain subtypes though, so no sybioye traits (unless I'm reading that wrong).

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Sorry, I should have been clearer. Is there any benefit if you use Alter Self instead of Shapechange? (Obviously, you have to be a small outsider or aberration, but that's not impossible).

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Ya know, I haven't looked at books for fun shapechange stuff in years. So I'm going to take this post as an excuse to do just that. I'm gonna start with MMV and then keep adding, because I don't want to read any more Kierkegaard.

MMV

While it's really a low level form, the Gulthir demon from MMV has my favorite swallow whole ability every printed:

Swallow of Domination (Ex)
Swallow any grabbed opponent smaller than itself. The swallowed creature is then vomited out automatically-no-save affected by dominate monster.

Hilarity.


Other hijinks appear in this book, too, some effective and some just fun to play around with. Some of them really make me want to find a way to get the Master Transmogrifist capstone to mix-n-match special abilities.

• The Remmanon demon has a confusion aura that never backfires and only affects opponents.
• Ethereal Defilers say lolno to any nearby teleportation effects and prevent enemies from even moving away on foot.
• Haunts revive like liches, but try figuring out how the ability interacts with polymorph effects.
• Malastors stun everything around them whenever they're hit (with a +6 racial bonus to the save DC).
• Merchurions can generate magic weapons of any type and are automatically proficient with them even if exotic, and they can mix-n-match magic properties on the fly.
• Madcrafters of Thoon can seriously just create a new thoon spawn every round as a swift action; they're weak but it's good for laughs.
• Mockery Monarchs permanently learn languages when they eat people, have a no-limit constant spell turning, and a swallow whole that turns humanoids into "loyal" drones. Whatever that means.
• Ruin Chanters have 12th level bardic music, if you ever want to sing at people. (Suggestion seems to be the winner, here.)
• Siege Beetles are stupid big beetles with a paralysis bite and the rather unusual immunity to sonic. Should that ever be relevant in anyone's game ever. Which I can't really imagine, but whatever.
• Thrym Hounds get a +6 racial bonus to saving throws, decent stats, +30 natural AC, and an automatic attack against anything that misses them. If only we could add the War Troll's dazing blow ability to them.
• Ushemoi can give you up to a +5 bonus to spell save DCs. They also cast as 4th level sorcs.

MMIV

• Balhannoth: Has some interesting abilities. A one-sided antimagic grapple that only affects the enemy, so your buffs are unaffected. Seems pretty mean. But what if they just teleport away, as demons/devils/angels are wont to do? Well, we got you covered with a dimensional lock aura. It also has this weird variant of blindsense that picks up anything magical, and it can "notice anything within the area of a magic effect (including its dimensional lock aura)." It's also flat immune to gaze attacks, illusions, and "visual effects". It's got a huge racial bonus to Hide, natural camouflage, improved grab, constrict, ... This actually seems like it could be useful on occasion.
• Bloodfire Ooze: Should it ever be relevant, it can empower any fire spell or SLA cast within 60 feet. Since fire spells generally suck, this probably WON'T ever be relevant, but whatever. The ability to keep these edge case things on hand is one reason shapechange is so awesome.
• Bloodhulk: Want to have a rules argument? Bloodhulks have an Ex ability that gives them maximum+2 hit points per HD.
• Concordant Killer: Immune to every energy type you care about, poison, and petrification. Constant true seeing and detect alignment. Telepathy, +19 NA, SR 30, DR 10/-, 27/17/23 stats. It also gets a +2 anarchic axiomatic unholy holy greatsword (but can't be Balor mined). The SLAs are nice, and so it would be a decent form for a Planar Shepherd, but they aren't native to any plane. No, that doesn't make any sense.
• Defacer: If you have a fear-stacking tactic, this has an auto-shaken-no-save aura that might speed that along.
• Demon, Whisper Demon: First off, the entry is under the heading "Demon", so calling "Whisper Demon" is fucking redundant. Anyway, this gets a mention for being weird and potentially fun (not powerful). It's an incorporeal thing that has immunities you don't care about because you have mind blank up all the time at this level. But! This is a form for Sorcerers: They get Cha to Will saves instead of Wis. But that's not all! It's got an aura that makes people stab themselves, and it comes with an explicit "protection from evil doesn't help" clause. That's amusing on its own, but any living creature that suicides within 60' rises as an allip under your control the next round. Hijinks!
• Dwarf Ancestor: This is the premiere 5HD outsider alter self form, because Large and +18 NA!
• Yugoloth, Corruptor of Fate: Bestow Curse at will. Nothing else of note.

Hmm, Wish sounds like it would be an auto win in most cases:"Teleport XYZ to the sun please"

NineInchNall wrote: Some of them really make me want to find a way to get the Master Transmogrifist capstone to mix-n-match special abilities.

Just remember that favoured forms have to be "things you can Polymorph into that aren't your own Type", so you can't have an Outsider as a favoured form (unless there's some cute trick that does let you Polymorph into them without changing your type to Outsider). Granted, the capstone ability only requires one of them (the base creature I think?) to be favoured - the stolen trait can be from anything.

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Koumei wrote:Just remember that favoured forms have to be "things you can Polymorph into that aren't your own Type", so you can't have an Outsider as a favoured form (unless there's some cute trick that does let you Polymorph into them without changing your type to Outsider). Granted, the capstone ability only requires one of them (the base creature I think?) to be favoured - the stolen trait can be from anything.

Fiendform is a 5th level spell that turns you into an outsider that can summoned via summon monster IV. Wheeeee! I'm pretty sure there's something similar for constructs & undead somewhere, too. If I ever do get a chance to play a MasTrans, I definitely need to find them, so I can add regeneration to a construct or undead form and be immune to damage.

Yeah, just the base form has to be favored. There were some fun things you could do with Infinite Variety. I liked the idea of combining Avalanchers (for their immunity to bludgeoning damage) with the Zodar Invulnerability (immune to non-bludgeoning).

ubernoob wrote:Definitely some winners here. Right now I have the following weapon: +1 Eager Warning Aptitude Magebane Transmuting Parrying Sizing Adamantine Spiked Chain with Truedeath and Demolition greater augment crystals (I'll figure out which one to equip depending on where we go). I don't have any other weapons (or money for them). Can I make use out of Merchurion aside from just generating a +3 ranged attack weapon?

I don't think so. It seems more useful for being able to buy a bunch of cheap +1 XXX swords that only have one property on them, then poke yourself to make a custom weapon that fits the upcoming fight. Since you already have t3h 1337 b14d3, it's not really a thing. Still, it's fun to be the T1000.

The siege beetle also has a funny trample variant I should have mentioned. Instead of just running over people, it basically bull rushes anything in its path, but without the hassle of reference the bull rush rules.

I'll be honest: I haven't met anyone who even really tried to play polymorph rules-as-written since the WotC devs threw in the towel in 2006. The polymorph errata was the last straw for everyone I knew who still took War Troll polymorph seriously as a thing to do, as it was no longer possible to play the "official" rules because they were a half dozen layers of errata and citations down and the end result ws gobbledygook anyway.

Without knowing how your DM thinks Shapechange works, I couldn't begin to advise you on what forms to use. If you're using the Skip Williams article explanation of how it works, you want to use PAO to assume every form in every book sequentially, for example. That's pretty weird, and doesn't hold in most versions of the spell line.

-Username17

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