The Gaming Den

Hello again, I just stumbled upon this class http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... ost6248489 and I want your advice. I think it's a little underpowered, but overall, wouldn't harm the character who takes it.

Obvious thoughts: You're a Cleric. Seriously, the only way you're going to get Rebuke Undead to matter while having Nerull as a Patron Deity and 3rd level Divine Spells is to be a Cleric. Not even a Favored Soul is going to cut the mustard, not that you care. Nerull does not grant the War Domain, and Clerics are not proficient with Scythes. So you need to flush two feats down the toilet or abuse the poorly written subype rules while coming in as a Lesser Aasimar and flush only one. Either way: ew.

Secondly, you have to take the class as your 8th level, because it requires 10 ranks in some skills. Also, one of those skills is not on the Cleric list, which means that you need to flush another feat down on Education or Apprenticeship because Nerull does not give the Knowledge domain or anything.

The class itself sets you back in spell level and BAB. And it gives abilities which are mostly pointless. Weapon Specialization, for example, is a fucking joke. And seriously, if you're a 10th level character who is fighting with Inflict spells as standard actions, I just feel sorry for you. Adding Scythe damage on top of that is pretty laughable. I mean fuck, you're a frickin 10th level Cleric, just give people the death finger or hurl them into Carceri.

The most mysterious one is where it charges you an actual caster level at 13th level to be able to always use the right spell (cure X wounds or Inflict X wounds) to hurt people. What the fuck dude, you're a 13th level Cleric. You seriously have 16 ranks of Knowledge Religion, you can take 1 on the DC 15 test to determine whether someone would get the weal or woe from an Inflict spell even if you have an Int of 6. Which we know you don't have because you bought max ranks in two different Knowledge skills at 7th level.

Basically, the entire class seems completely pointless and written without the slightest regard for the class features that the target class actually has.

If it was seriously just a Cleric that gave you proficiency and specialization in Scythe it would be schticky and basically balanced. Especially if it cam in at a much lower level (like level 5 instead of 8, or lower than that even). But basically, being a guy who hits people with a Scythe is just not impressive or acceptable as a life goal in the early teens, level-wise.

-Username17

It's like a shitty divine Boneblade Reaper. Also, sacrificing two caster levels? No. Definitely not. If you're a cleric, your job is to keep your caster level as high as possible, so you can fvck people up.

This class helps you fail at your job.

Also, the abilities are moderately interesting, but again, not worth the loss of two caster levels.

EDIT: Pretty much fucking trampled by Frank's ninja.

What he said.

Yeah, to make this class not suck:

1) Lower requirements to 8 ranks Knowledge Religion only.
2) Give full casting.
3) Automatically grant Scythe Prof and Weapon Focus, and Weapon Spec, at level 1, those aren't even real class features.
4) Make Deathwatch a constant effect with no actions because a first level fucking spell at will as a standard action is dumb shit at level anything for use in combat.
5) Make the Deathward a freaking immediate action cast. Seriously. Things need to be immediate actions more often. Or give him permanent Deathward and some other crap. But none of that "you get Cha mod extra spells per day that are all the same spell" crap.

All clerical PrCs need to be rated against the Church Inquisitor.

If your PrC doesn't compare favorably against that PrC, which is easy to get into but doesn't hand out any game-breaking power, then you need to redesign your class.

Quick rundown of Church Inquisitor.

First of all, you can enter the PrC by level 3. It has no feat prerequisites, very generous skill prerequisites (all things clerics would want anyway), and can be qualified by level 2 clerics. I think it's the easiest and earliest PrC you can enter ever printed.

Hit points: d8, same as cleric.
Skill Points: You get a very generous list that has skills clerics normally never see, like Spot and Sense Motive. You also get four skill points a level.
Saves: Good will only. That does suck, but due to the way 3E save progressions work if you get out at the right level you'll end out even or nearly even.
Spellcasting: Full spellcaster levels. This automatically makes it worth a look.

Level 1: You get detect evil as a spell-like ability. You know, like paladins get. You also get access to the Inquisition domain. It's not all that great, actually, since it mostly has spells you already have and wouldn't put into your domain slot at any case. I have a slightly kinder view towards the dispel magic spell than Frank, but only slightly. The +4 bonus to dispel checks still doesn't make it something you'd want to cast in combat (it'd have to be a +6 for me to start thinking about it at all).
Verdict: Good level.

Level 2: You are immune to all enchantment (charm) effects, which are actually isn't all that common. common depending on how many monster manuals your DM is using. You gain a +1 to your base Will.
Verdict: Okay level.

Level 3: Pierce Illusion. You no longer need to interact with an illusion to see through it. If you just SEE it you get to make a will save. As long as you can make the will save, this is like having the best parts of True Seeing for the rest of your life except that you get to detect anything you can see, not just within its puny radius. Also a +1 to base fortitude and reflex.
Verdict: Awesome level.

Level 4: You get a +4 bonus to spot checks to detect disguises. If you chose to boost up Spot earlier you can see through disguises like crazy. Big deal. Oh, and a +1 base will save.
Verdict: Bad level.

Level 5: You become immune to compulsions. This is better than Magic Circle Against Evil because it also works against effects that don't grant the caster ongoing control of your brain, like Geas and Suggestion. This level pretty much permanently frees up your 3rd/4th level spell slot.
Verdict: Awesome level.

Level 6: Force Shapechange. With a melee touch attack and an opposed caster level check, you can force a creature back into its natural form and prevent them from changing again for 1d6 rounds. Why wouldn't you just frickin' cast a targetted Dispel Magic? Whatever, you get +1 to all saves.
Verdict: Mediocre level.


The other four levels don't really mean anything, since they don't build up to anything special nor give out any noticable powerups. You would only stay in them if you wanted to continue to boost up one of the Church Inquisitor's skill and your DM wouldn't let you have anything else. The real saving graces of this class are the level 3 and 5 abilities and the fact that you can get into by level 3. It does a nice job of filling up the 'dead zone' of clerical multiclassing (levels 2-7 of cleric) since you can do something besides take empty clerical levels. You don't get any game-breaking POWER, just versatility.

So yeah. If your PrC can't compare favorably to the Church Inquisitor then you should go back to the drawing board.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Level 6: Force Shapechange. With a melee touch attack and an opposed caster level check, you can force a creature back into its natural form and prevent them from changing again for 1d6 rounds. Why wouldn't you just frickin' cast a targetted Dispel Magic?

Because you are dealing with a Druid or Doppleganger?

Not particularly useful, but it does give you some out of combat fucking with Dopplegangers that fits well with the whole "I finds the bad people in disguise." Also you can fuck over Druids maybe.

It's hard to say what the CL effect of Supernatural abilities would be, but probably just Druid Level or HD or CR (For change shape types) depending on what you feel like making up.

So yeah, it's Druid killer + social ability, and that's about it.

Kaelik wrote: Because you are dealing with a Druid or Doppleganger?

You would still want to grab just the targetted Dispel Magic because that removes other effects in addition to the polymorph. Remember that you can dispel (Su) effects.

And considering what a bogus effect Dispelling is, even with the +4 to dispel checks, it makes you wonder why you wouldn't just use one of your other Save or Dies rather than wasting your standard action. At least Dispel Magic can be quickened.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Remember that you can dispel (Su) effects.

No you can't.

"Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic."

Page 290 of the DMG says that you can, though. And then later there is clear text that says that supernatural abilities aren't subject to dispelling.

It's like the right hand doesn't realize what the left hand is doing.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Page 290 of the DMG says that you can, though. And then later there is clear text that says that supernatural abilities aren't subject to dispelling.

It's like the right hand doesn't realize what the left hand is doing.

No Dispelling Supernaural effects is one of those 3.5 changes that was so minor that they forgot to change all the text.

-Username17

Damn, every time I think I've seen the last of the stupid pointless minor 3.5 changes another one rears its ugly head.

I think years from now I'll still be learning about stupid minor changes in 3e=>3.5 that I never noticed.

Double damn.

So... you can or can't dispel Supernatural effects?

Aktariel wrote:So... you can or can't dispel Supernatural effects?

Yes.

It depends on what you think the primary source on dispelling supernatural effects is. It's probably the Monster Manual, which says that they cannot be dispelled and literally the only thing that makes any difference is that they are suppressed by antimagic fields. No idea why they decided to do this, as antimagic fields basically never happen unless you are fighting beholders.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:

Aktariel wrote:So... you can or can't dispel Supernatural effects?

Yes.

It depends on what you think the primary source on dispelling supernatural effects is. It's probably the Monster Manual, which says that they cannot be dispelled and literally the only thing that makes any difference is that they are suppressed by antimagic fields. No idea why they decided to do this, as antimagic fields basically never happen unless you are fighting beholders.

-Username17

So in 3.0, when you could. What was the CL for supernatural effects based on?

Kaelik wrote:So in 3.0, when you could. What was the CL for supernatural effects based on?

Hit Dice.

-Username17