The Gaming Den

So in the real world, the bay of Fundy has the greatest difference between low and high tides - the equivalent of a five-story building.

A floating dock only works in a place where there is still water at low-tide. Most places on Earth you walk a certain distance from the shore and you walk off a continental shelf - it means water gets deep FAST. If the distance between the Continental Shelf and the shore is pretty short, people will dock in the deep water (and there's plenty of water even at low-tide) and either walk on some kind of pier or take some kind of small vessel (like a row boat) to shore.

If the distance between them is great, people probably won't dock there at all.

In places where the water remains deep even with a low-tide (like many river estuaries) people will be docking in rivers that are not massively affected by tidal differences.

If you have two moons on opposite sides, they are exactly like having one moon. The high tides are both on the side closest to the moon and the opposite side (furthest from the moon). Having two moons won't appreciably amplify this effect. Moon 1 is actually pulling all the water toward it, but because gravitational pull decreases with distance, moon 1 isn't pulling the far water ENOUGH so it actually moves away from the moon; with moon 2 pulling it it's getting the same effect as the side near moon 1.

There's a temptation to just make Priest an rchetype that different classes have. So the priests of Ares are fighters and barbarians who've taken the Priest archetype to get, like, a domain and some basic magic in place of, like, their bullshit minor stuff (feats and uncannty dodge/trap resistance, respectively)

I'm not sure any given religious affiliation even needs an ACF / archetype / whatnot. Gods could just have classes that most of their priesthood take levels in. So if you want to be a priest of Nerull, you check his entry:

Nerull wrote: Domains: Darkness, Death, Evil, Trickery
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Priests: Priests of Nerull take levels in Necromancer.

Then you can flavor your character appropriately.

I could also see priest effects done using feats. Maybe a feat that gives omen of peril and one that gives lesser vigor at will so you can be a supportive character.

Emerald wrote:Not knowing anything about Fantasy Craft beyond the Den review of it, are those a divine-magic-only thing, or are Paths a generic thing that everyone can use for things beyond Cleric Lite stuff?

I think the latter option (whether it actually is that way in Fantasy Craft or not) would be a workable heartbreaker idea, and a workable way to get rid of the cleric like Frank wants. If a paladin can decide to pick up a Sun Priest package and do all the things you'd expect out of a Cleric of Pelor at a basic level alongside his normal paladin stuff, and a fighter or fire mage could pick it up as well to be more or less Templar-y than the paladin version, then that resolves most of the issues with removing the cleric. And if any of those characters could have instead picked up e.g. the Demon-Blooded package to play a fiend from 1st level, then divine casting isn't its own special snowflake subsystem and so is easier to balance and incorporate into the rest of the system.

FC limits paths to a few classes and subclasses, but does do some weird stuff where they aren't exclusively used to represent divine power. There's a Monk class that has a specific set of its own paths, or an elementalist fighter class that gets the appropriate path for that. The system actually does suppose that there are some generic priest abilities, mostly being good with ritual weapon, getting free hints and getting re-rolls and luck bonuses themed as mild divine intervention. It's not a terrible chassis for a generic Priest class, given that the vast majority of its abilities come from domains, or are generically useful.

More generally though, the idea that "the divine power of Fire" is a specific set of abilities, and there's some currency you can spend from a variety of characters to get that powerset and call yourself an emissary of some particular divine force isn't a bad idea.

Bay of Fundy tides are cool, thanks for making me aware of em
https://www.bayoffundy.com/about/highest-tides/

So it's like a very deep narrow funnel that causes that particular phenomena

...You Lost Me wrote:I'm not sure any given religious affiliation even needs an ACF / archetype / whatnot. Gods could just have classes that most of their priesthood take levels in. So if you want to be a priest of Nerull, you check his entry:

Nerull wrote: Domains: Darkness, Death, Evil, Trickery
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Priests: Priests of Nerull take levels in Necromancer.

Then you can flavor your character appropriately.

I could also see priest effects done using feats. Maybe a feat that gives omen of peril and one that gives lesser vigor at will so you can be a supportive character.

Well, I mean, there are really two issues here. Cleric fulfills both a narrative role (Priest of a God/Philosophy) and a mechanical role (Healslut).

Now, granted, actually playing a healslut is a waste of the Cleric class unless you're literally into healslut kink and the table's cool with it.

So, let's hypothetically say that we completely get rid of the Cleric class. The narrative role of "priest of a god/philosophy" is completely off loaded to "look up the god, take the class it says its priests are" and maybe a basic Clergy Background that gives you Kn.Religion and, like, maybe you get a blessing ritual that is dictated by who your god is. So, the priests of the Pirate God take levels of rogue, the Clergy background, and they get a Bless Ship ritual that gives a crew +X to Profession Sailor, Appraise, Swim, etc. and priests of the Fire God take levels of Arcanist with the Pyromancy archetype, the Clergy background, and they get a Bless Forgeworkers ritual, or something, that gives a group of people Fire Resist 5 or something.

That leaves the Healslut mechanical role to be handled.

I'm not saying there has to be a healslut class. Or that every party needs to have a Healslut character. But if the cleric class isn't going to exist at all, then we need a signpost that says "this is how your characters get their healing." Which could be as simple as "healing potions are alchemical substances and you can buy them at any town of decent size or settlement that primarily caters to adventurers, and there are priests of healing who follow a god who gives out Cure Light Wounds as their ritual"

Getting down what hit points mean would help

80's Conan and 4e healing got accepted or rejected based on what people personally thought hp were

Also fair. Although it raises the question of what should they be?

If you're doing a D&D 3e knockoff, then the question of what HP is has already been more or less answered, and wands of lesser vigor definitely seem like the way to do healing. Making that a character trait sounded like a feat to me, which is why I recommended lesser vigor at-will as a feat. I agree that you probably want a white mage / supportive cloth-wearer, and since the Cleric is painfully bland, I personally like the Curator.

If you're going outside the realm of D&D, I think there are a lot of other questions to ask before determining the nature of HP.

Regarding hit point healing, you have two major cases - in combat healing and out-of-combat healing.

In Action Movie physics, out of combat healing isn't really a big deal. You get shot, you put on a bandage, and then you're fine. It's only in the scene where you get shot and prior to the bandage that you feel ill effects.

That implies that out-of-combat healing is best handled by low-level powers - maybe even non-magical powers like the heal skill.

In-combat healing that takes someone from unconscious to back to the fight is potentially a higher-level ability. That is - assuming you even want people to come back into the combat. There are potentially a lot of considerations for how effective combat healing can be. In 3.x, even a low-level spell can bring someone from the brink of death (-9 hp) to fully functional (1 hp) with a good roll.

In the heartbreaker my friends and I play, we have two pools of hit points - VP which is basically dodge/fatigue and normally you don't worry about WP damage until that's gone (with the exception of a critical). WP damage is much more difficult to heal/requires higher level spells or more time. Characters try to avoid taking WP damage - even disengaging from combat to recover VP (relatively quickly) before re-engaging. We like that getting some 'easy healing' or 'taking a breather' is a tactical choice that is sometimes worth making. By 3rd level, WP damage is (relatively) easy to heal outside of combat, but for the first 2 levels it is significantly more difficult.

deaddmwalking wrote:Regarding hit point healing, you have two major cases - in combat healing and out-of-combat healing.

In Action Movie physics, out of combat healing isn't really a big deal. You get shot, you put on a bandage, and then you're fine. It's only in the scene where you get shot and prior to the bandage that you feel ill effects.

That implies that out-of-combat healing is best handled by low-level powers - maybe even non-magical powers like the heal skill.

In-combat healing that takes someone from unconscious to back to the fight is potentially a higher-level ability. That is - assuming you even want people to come back into the combat. There are potentially a lot of considerations for how effective combat healing can be. In 3.x, even a low-level spell can bring someone from the brink of death (-9 hp) to fully functional (1 hp) with a good roll.

In the heartbreaker my friends and I play, we have two pools of hit points - VP which is basically dodge/fatigue and normally you don't worry about WP damage until that's gone (with the exception of a critical). WP damage is much more difficult to heal/requires higher level spells or more time. Characters try to avoid taking WP damage - even disengaging from combat to recover VP (relatively quickly) before re-engaging. We like that getting some 'easy healing' or 'taking a breather' is a tactical choice that is sometimes worth making. By 3rd level, WP damage is (relatively) easy to heal outside of combat, but for the first 2 levels it is significantly more difficult.

Is it always 50/50 or doe sit vary how much VP WP one has

Pedantic wrote:More generally though, the idea that "the divine power of Fire" is a specific set of abilities, and there's some currency you can spend from a variety of characters to get that powerset and call yourself an emissary of some particular divine force isn't a bad idea.

But more generally than that, there's no particular reason for the divine portion of the divine fire to do anything in particular over arcane fire or elemental fire, or totemic fire or whatever. Fire is a pretty interchangeable concept, and it doesn't really matter whether you are powered by being the son of the volcano god or whether you just really like fire and spend a lot of time studying it.

What does make a difference is what your character's role is. A fire warrior in red chainmail has melee and defensive abilities that are fire related regardless of whether they are a disciple of the forge god or a lava warrior. And a cloth wearing nuker has AoE and distance damage abilities regardless of whether they are an Oracle of the Sun or a Fire Elementalist Mage.

There's plenty of thematically similar 'domains' that might appeal to characters with overlapping concept that fulfill a completely different character role. And game mechanically those domains should be different for those different characters. I could easily imagine a character with a 'stormy seas' theme who is offensive or defensive, frontline or support. And if you find yourself trying to hammer in the same set of 'stormy seas' powers to all those characters because of mumble mumble streamlining, you're fucking up.

-Username17

OgreBattle wrote:

deaddmwalking wrote: In the heartbreaker my friends and I play, we have two pools of hit points - VP which is basically dodge/fatigue and normally you don't worry about WP damage until that's gone (with the exception of a critical).

Is it always 50/50 or doe sit vary how much VP WP one has

At 1st level, it is 50/50, and characters have roughly 2x as many hit points as their 3.x counterpoint. VP increases like 3.x (a fixed amount based on class plus CON); WP increase by WP only.

So if a class has 10 HP, and a character has a +4 CON, they'd have 14 WP/14VP at 1st level; 18/28 at 2nd level, and 22/42 at 3rd level. Damage scales faster than 3.x, but a character can expect to survive usually 2 of 3 hits in WP; they do suffer some combat penalties when wounded but we've tried to balance the 'death spiral' so it doesn't completely make you ineffective but it creates an incentive to withdraw from combat.

DeadDmWalking wrote:At 1st level, it is 50/50, and characters have roughly 2x as many hit points as their 3.x counterpoint. VP increases like 3.x (a fixed amount based on class plus CON); WP increase by WP only.

So if a class has 10 HP, and a character has a +4 CON, they'd have 14 WP/14VP at 1st level; 18/28 at 2nd level, and 22/42 at 3rd level. Damage scales faster than 3.x, but a character can expect to survive usually 2 of 3 hits in WP; they do suffer some combat penalties when wounded but we've tried to balance the 'death spiral' so it doesn't completely make you ineffective but it creates an incentive to withdraw from combat.

I wish you would have shared this in the "How Does Your Heartbreaker Handle Damage?" thread. Wait, there's still time!

In all seriousness, if you have the time, I'd appreciate it if you'd do a deeper explanation of your damage system, the healing effects, and the ways the system has affected gameplay when compared with vanilla D&D.

I'd appreciate it if you unfucked your tags!

Considering 3 different options for a skirmish game

1) D&D turns, but damage is resolved at the end of the round. So I move, attack, but target can strike back before KO. Perhaps critical hits cause immediate damage

2) Movement phase, then attack phase. I move, you move, I attack, you attack

3) Movement phase, attack phase, damage resolution phase at end with critical hits for immediate damage

3rd option... I wonder if having a damage resolution phase takes away from the movement and attack being in different phases.

OgreBattle wrote:Considering 3 different options for a skirmish game

1) D&D turns, but damage is resolved at the end of the round. So I move, attack, but target can strike back before KO. Perhaps critical hits cause immediate damage

2) Movement phase, then attack phase. I move, you move, I attack, you attack

3) Movement phase, attack phase, damage resolution phase at end with critical hits for immediate damage

3rd option... I wonder if having a damage resolution phase takes away from the movement and attack being in different phases.

The only issue with this is that damage doesn't do anything until you die. Breaking up the phases will take more time. It sounds a lot like BattleTech, except in BT you lose effectiveness as you take critical hits (lose weapons, etc.), so there is a benefit to moving the damage phase until after the attack phase.

In D&D, you'd be better saying you still get a parting attack when you die. It's effectively the same (for the system you have to work with), with less record-keeping.

Initiative System?
Who goes first to who goes last semi random with a static number derived from attributes and a dice roll?
Damage taken could influence this.
Kinda like Shadowrun.
Depending on the DMG being dealt on a regular basis to soaking options, this might make things problematic, as if you go first and can reliably deal enough damage that the slower one does not get to go at all, it becomes kinda lopsided . .

Are you differentiating between shooting attacks and close combat attacks there?

Personally I'd say that resolving damage as soon as possible has the advantage that it's over and done with as soon as it happens, you don't need to remember or use markers or something to keep track.

EDIT: Actually, might be best to go back a step. There's all sorts of methods with their pros and cons, what are you trying to do with your game, and what are you trying to avoid?

Whoops, forgot to include I was looking at Epic 40k's "Blast Marker" system where just being hit with a weapon that can hurt you will place a blast marker that penalizes the target's actions. So a morale/suppression effect. The blast markers become damage rolls at the resolution step.

Page 11 of epic 40k goes into that: https://thehobby.zone/resources/Downloa ... ampPDF.pdf

A formation receives one Blast marker every time it is shot at by an enemy formation, even if no casualties are
caused — this is called coming under fire.

l A formation receives one Blast marker every time one of its units is destroyed.
l Each Blast marker prevents one unit in the formation from shooting — this is called suppression.
l Blast markers affect a formation’s ability to carry out actions, win assaults, and rally.
l A formation becomes Broken when the number of Blast markers equals the number of units in the formation.

A Broken formation is very vulnerable — it is easily destroyed, can only move by making a withdrawal at certain
times, and may not take actions in the Action phase (so it can't shoot either, for example). You must try to rally
Broken formations in the End phase.

I've never seen Epic 40k played though... so I'll have to find a battle report to see what it's like in motion. Oh yeah, controlling 1 unit is different than a dozen units, so for smaller scale the suppression effect has to be lower

if you want to look at more recent games, star wars legion uses a similar system. it's arguably be the most important subsystem in the game.

warpath from mantic as well, though it's been a while and i can't remember specifics.

Been reading this website: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/r ... efense.php

Lots of nice info on realistic-ish lasers, particle beams and so on.

On the particle beams, they mention a charged beam will look like a lightning bolt, but what would a Neutral Particle Beam look like?

They mention magnetic fields won't stop a neutral particle beam... so can electricity stop or redirect it? Like if there's a thunder storm would the neutral particle beam weapon be affected by that

Neutral beams could be made of Neutron radiation or Gamma radiation (light). So lasers of all colors are neutral beams. The invisible deadly radiation that comes from fission bombs is also neutral radiation. So a neutral beam could be any color or an invisible colorless deathray.

-Username17

OgreBattle wrote:They mention magnetic fields won't stop a neutral particle beam... so can electricity stop or redirect it? Like if there's a thunder storm would the neutral particle beam weapon be affected by that

Nope. No electric charge means no effect by electric fields.
Only thing you can do is put something in the way and hope it deflects/absorbs enough of the ray.

OgreBattle wrote:Been reading this website: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/r ... efense.php

Lots of nice info on realistic-ish lasers, particle beams and so on.

Definitely second that website. Also, the Freefall webcomic it mentions.