Legend: some dude's d20 clone

[JigokuBosatsu]

Colorblind racism accusation horseshit

Refusing to talk about racism when there is a racism problem involved- that's bad.

Not talking about racism when there is no racism problem involved- that's called normal life.

I am sick to death of people who pull the colorblind racism card when they personally decide something may potentially someday be offensive to somebody somewhere, and have other people say "No, that's just you." It's the "poisoning the well" fallacy, I suppose, the same thing people use when they're talking about conspiracies. Only, instead of the Illuminati, it's white privilege, and instead of coverup it's whitewash.

By the logic you're presenting, we should not ever be talking about gaming at all, and only discuss racism until it's gone. Are you telling me that all day every day you discuss racism with people? If not, then by your own criteria you are a big fat whitewashing racist.

I also don't appreciate your avatar- I feel that it is appropriating autism culture and reflecting poorly on the plight of Vigilante-Americans everywhere.

[Seerow]

Colorblind racism accusation horseshit

Refusing to talk about racism when there is a racism problem involved- that's bad.

Not talking about racism when there is no racism problem involved- that's called normal life.

I am sick to death of people who pull the colorblind racism card when they personally decide something may potentially someday be offensive to somebody somewhere, and have other people say "No, that's just you." It's the "poisoning the well" fallacy, I suppose, the same thing people use when they're talking about conspiracies. Only, instead of the Illuminati, it's white privilege, and instead of coverup it's whitewash.

By the logic you're presenting, we should not ever be talking about gaming at all, and only discuss racism until it's gone. Are you telling me that all day every day you discuss racism with people? If not, then by your own criteria you are a big fat whitewashing racist.

I also don't appreciate your avatar- I feel that it is appropriating autism culture and reflecting poorly on the plight of Vigilante-Americans everywhere.

There's also the fact that the guy is demonstratably racist against white people. I displayed a quality he found negative, that he associates with all white people, and automatically assumed I am white. I'm pretty sure that's a textbook example of racism, or at least extreme prejudice. Of course he never responded to that, and just waited for someone else to say something he could attack.


Either way, this guy inspired me to find my ignore button.

[CatharzGodfoot]

...If you're seeing a severe imbalance here, give me some data and I'll see what we can do about it...

That all makes sense. If I get a chance to do a playtest and it seems like a problem, I'll let you know.

---

I also have some Undead Qestions/Issues:
[*]Liches should use KOM for for Netherworld Grasp rather than Int?
[*]Mummy damage reduction is weak relative to other sources of DR. Not sure if this is intentional.
[*]The Undead 6th circle (Heartstopper) should probably only work on [Positive, Healing] effects.
[*]What happens if you trade away your Undead bonus feat with Floating Feat? Do you lose access to all type-specific track abilities?

---

[Edit]
[*]"Cowering" indicates that a creature loses its Dex bonus. Should this read KDM?
[*]"On Fire" is not a [fire] effect and does not deal [fire] damage. Is this intentional (so that an [acid] ability that sets you [on fire] deals acid damage)? If so, shouldn't the condition be called "Burning" or something else less evocative of flames?
[*]Could fear-causing abilities just add a number to your fear ladder rather than inflicting a specific condition? It seems more clear that way.
[*]"Weapon effects create a new weapon or transmute an existing one; obviously, no two weapon effects can coexist on the same weapon because the second one will replace or override the first one." -- So what happens when I create a weapon with a weapon effect and then transmute it with a weapon effect? Does it just go *poof*?
[*]Does Resistance of the same type from multiple sources stack?

[*]Defensive fighting is mutually exclusive with charging and power attack.

• According to the Charge description, you can power attack while charging.
• According to the Defensive Fighting description, you can't charge while fighting defensively.
• According to the Power Attack description, you can't fight defensively while power attacking.

This all makes sense, but why are the limitations spread out haphazardly over all three descriptions?

[*]Darkvision sees through magic darkness of 4th circle or lower. Darkness is 2nd circle but the spell description indicates that it foils darkvision.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Magic's "The whole plane's a city" set that I can't remember the name of

Ravnica

[...You Lost Me]

I'm looking at section XII right now, Legendary Characters. They're not quite balanced within time frames and encounters. Chameleon is ridiculously awesome, and Woldhewn/Indestructible are awesome. But Suave isn't at all useful outside of social encounters and makes you a total boss during social encounters--sacrificing your awesome in combat so as to steal the spotlight during social combat.

Something like Debts Reckoned will dominate in any fight (three outcomes a free action on either player's turn? Yes please.) while puppetmaster is probably only meant for the BBEG, and could literally be the result of a smart guy.

That bit needs work, and I only see myself using it for a high-power campaign where the players know balance and won't feel small in the pants. Practicing Nihilist is especially dumb.

[milskidasith]

Debts Reckoned is an immediate action, not a free action, and it's three times per quest, and quests last a while. It's very significant, yes, but I think you are portraying it a bit unfairly. Since a Quest is likely comprised of a few scenes, you can pull out an absolutely confirmed result when it's necessary, but not more often than that.

[...You Lost Me]

For the BBEG, a [Quest]'s entire duration is "when the players come to kill you", which is probably a combat. Maybe 2. Influencing 3 rolls on anybody's turn in combat, and changing them to whatever you want, is definitely big when your lifespan is 2 battles.

Puppetmaster has nowhere near that viability, and neither do some of the other abilities.

[Avoraciopoctules]

The more I read this, the more intrigued I get. However, I also get increasingly convinced that Legend really needs a supplementary PDF introducing D&D 3.x players to all the easily-missable ways this differs from SRD stuff.

[Stubbazubba]

I downloaded this awhile ago. Do they still employ the 'chips' system to add an interesting element to social interactions? I thought that was a good idea but it didn't actually go far enough. I modified it for my own system. Is there still a mention of using tokens or something and playing poker for social situations? That was probably my favorite idea from my read-through months ago.

Edit: Found it, Tokens, that was what it was called. pp.128-130

[CatharzGodfoot]

The more I read this, the more intrigued I get. However, I also get increasingly convinced that Legend really needs a supplementary PDF introducing D&D 3.x players to all the easily-missable ways this differs from SRD stuff.

Yeah. That would probably also help the Legend devs figure out where they've missed little bits of legacy code.

[Prak]

Could you guys see about editing the layout of the pdf a bit to make it work better for ereaders? Until you can make hardcopies, that's one of two main ways that people would use it at the table (though I suppose 179 pages isn't too much to print out...)

The pdf looks pretty good on my nook (it automatically makes it single column), but the real difficulty, and I don't know if Kindles have this issue as well, is that tables.... well, it makes them single column. The easiest way to fix this, I would think, would be to turn the tables into graphics and paste them in, and have a separate file optimized for ereaders. (Making an epub file seems like a lot more work than just converting tables to images)

Edit: Just noticed, but Elven War Dance should probably say someting about powerful rage, as it currently just nullifies the -2 dex, and the +2 KOM you'd get for the second Rage Circle, and gives +5' range.

[K]

I finally got a chance to read this a few times.

Multi-classing is the best part of the system and I think people giving this system a chance are going to spend a lot of time making sample characters with various wild combos of racial tracks and multi-class and full-buy-in tracks.

That being said, the game is an order of magnitude more complex than 3.x and two or three orders of magnitude more complex than 4e. I can't imagine life is very easy for DMs creating monsters and for most players they are going to need some kind of chart to keep track of the various passive abilities, free actions, swift actions, immediate actions, non-action actions, move actions converted to other actions, and finally their standard actions. Most things are encounter abilities, but there are enough non-encounter ones that you need to list these separately.

Combat rounds seem like they are going to take forever as people try to remember everything they can do and whether they have some immunity to damage reduction/negation ability at work or other immediate or non-action ability.

That being said, a lot of the abilities feel very much like 4e abilities where everything looks a lot like other things. I can't tell you how many 7th Circle abilities are just "avoid some damage" or "don't be dead." This means it gets the same old 4e criticism of "it seems like a decent combat simulator, but I wouldn't want to tell stories with it."

I'm also unsure why so many immunities get handed out when there are few status effect abilities. I mean, even a blanket immunity like Immunity to Mind-Affecting abilities seems like it may never come up.

Feats are more powerful in general, but you are still placed in the position of choosing flavor options vs. combat options. Some of the feats are also wildly powerful compared to others.

They also neutered the 3.x spell list. Some things were turned into tracks for various classes or just feats, but most were just removed entirely. (Oddly, a few illusion spells were left in with no additional rules to fix that mess.) The tension between encounter-use people who get easy fast healing and spellcasters who are on scene-uses just seems ill-conceived.

I won't list the editorial or layout mistakes, but I'll just suggest that they take another pass at reorganizing and streamlining information and checking every ability for missing information and key concepts that need more complete explanations.

The thing that annoyed me most was that various multi-classing options just don't work well because of various oversights. For example, I was jazzed by both the Undead and Dragon tracks since they had some authentically flavorful bits and you could get them without DM-approval, but I was disappointed when I realized that various abilities don't work because it's impossible to get claws or a bite if you aren't starting as a monster and those are required to use some of the best abilities.

Points for effort, but this game needs a new edition or three.

[Koumei]

I think the complexity depends on the level, and if you start at level 1-3 and go up from there, you probably get used to your stuff over time. For instance I made a passable* Human NecroMonk 1 in really short order, and just had the combat options of "Flurry, Chill Touch".

Though there's a bit of confusion about how CT works. I assume my options are "Punch someone twice for 1d8+4" or "Touch someone once for 2d4". Or can I deliver it through a punch for "Punch someone once for 1d8+2d4+4"?

Anyway, it looks pretty good so far. I look forward to seeing options added, some things cleared up and the whole thing polished.

And yeah, some people are going to want scenes to be over ASAP so they can recharge while others will want to drag scenes on as much as they can so they don't have to spend an action to reset their ongoing effects. Which could be a bit of a pain. Although measuring things by scene is always going to lead to arguments about when scenes are over (WW was well known for it), but it's still probably better than going "Hey, did the trip to McRuralTownVillageVille take 2 or 3 hours?", "Oh hey, we started the raid 3 minutes to midnight, is it midnight yet?" and the like.

That being said, a lot of the abilities feel very much like 4e abilities where everything looks a lot like other things. I can't tell you how many 7th Circle abilities are just "avoid some damage" or "don't be dead." This means it gets the same old 4e criticism of "it seems like a decent combat simulator, but I wouldn't want to tell stories with it."

This is looking like a real concern, though at least you're actually allowed to interact with things in non-combat ways. I haven't read the social rules section yet, but it's looking a step up in that concern, even if a lot of the special abilities and attack powers are very similar.

*One thing I'll say, it's easy to know what your numbers should look like and how to get them there. "Put 16 in either your KDM or KOM stat, 14 in the other. Level bonuses should first be directed to those two. Racial bonus should be one of them - if you have a race that gives a bonus to both, that's awesome." So level 1, you should probably have something in the region of attack +5 and AC 15, with a Bad Save of +2 and Good Saves of +5 or so.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Has anyone figured out why Dragon is a recommended 'multiclass' for rangers? They lose the bonus skill point and any attribute bonuses, and get non-synergistic KMs for what? Is this just an attempt to stealth-nerf the biggest badasses in the game?

Edit: Just noticed, but Elven War Dance should probably say someting about powerful rage, as it currently just nullifies the -2 dex, and the +2 KOM you'd get for the second Rage Circle, and gives +5' range.

It does. +10 speed and an extra attack.

[Prak]

ah, ok, must have missed that

[Lokathor]

If you make your Dharas drunken scotsmen, or your Elves badly written Celtic-hippies, you are racist.

That's not political correctness. That's privileged white Americans thinking they can run roughshod over other cultures and have a nice laugh at the drunken dorfs or the poncy elves.

Woah woah woah woah man. Hold on there. Chill out for just a second. Elves in my games are dirty no-good commie hippies, obviously, but at least they're styled after American hippies. None of that Europe or Celtic crap in here.

[ModelCitizen]

Though there's a bit of confusion about how CT works. I assume my options are "Punch someone twice for 1d8+4" or "Touch someone once for 2d4". Or can I deliver it through a punch for "Punch someone once for 1d8+2d4+4"?

As I understand it the bolded thing is correct.

[Lokathor]

Really though, i'm sad to see that most of the work isn't considered open game content.

[Chamomile]

Though there's a bit of confusion about how CT works. I assume my options are "Punch someone twice for 1d8+4" or "Touch someone once for 2d4". Or can I deliver it through a punch for "Punch someone once for 1d8+2d4+4"?

As I understand it the bolded thing is correct.

FALCON PUNCH!

[Prak]

The more I read this, the more I want to play it. It seems that a sufficiently high disable device check could wipe or alter a dwarven datalith. This would worry me if ride weren't giving out vtols and five story battle mechs around that time, presumably to make your escape with after pissing off a bunch of dwarves.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Speaking of elven ragers, tell me if this works:

Elf Ranger 10

Tracks: Professional Soldier (Ranger), Power of Rage (Barbarian), Force of Will (Sage Guild Initiation).

Items: True Symbol relic, etc.

Round 1:
[*]Rage (swift action)
[*]Demoralize (free action)
[*]Kept Secret & Safe (move action)
[*]Full attack for 3 attacks (standard action)
[*]A Stitch in Time for another attack plus other allies can attack (swift action)
[*] A Stitch in Time again (swift action).
Round 2:
[*]Healing Burst (move)
[*]Full attack for 3 attacks (standard)
[*]A Stitch in Time x3 (3x swift)

That should chew through any opposition pretty quickly. Especially if you're using something like a Blaze Bolter.

At 18th level it goes absolutely apeshit.
[*]Rage (swift)
[*]Demoralize (free)
[*]Full attack (standard)
[*]A Stitch in Time x2 (swift x2)
[*]A Stitch in Time x3 (immediate x3)
[*]Healing Burst (includes A Stitch in Time) (move)

Then think of what happens if two of these guys team up...

[JesterZero]

Speaking of elven ragers, tell me if this works:

I don't think so?

There are five types of actions. In any given [Round], a creature has one each of a standard action and move action, either a swift action or an immediate action, and up to five free actions.

I think you have too many actions

[quote="A Stitch In Time]2nd Circle – A Stitch In TimeSU: Time is fleeting, but the sage has learned how to warp it for just a second, long enough perhaps to change fate. As a standard action, you may activate this ability, twisting up the world in a rippling wave around you. This stretches out to 15 ft from you, affecting all allies within this range. Those affected can immediately make one melee or ranged attack. Taking this action doesn’t affect the subject’s normal place in the initiative order. This is a single attack and follows the standard rules for attacking.[/quote]

Stitch in Time is a standard action, not a swift one.

I might have missed something since I'm still wrapping my head around this, but I think your Angry Sagacious Ranger would be out of moves after the full attack.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Yeah, it doesn't work at 10th level. Steady Old Hand only allows for one swift activation of A Stitch in Time. Oh well.

However, the rager still gets an extra swift action from both the True Symbol Relic and the Professional Soldier 4th circle.

So rather than using A Stitch in Time two or three times at 10th level, you do it once and lay one or two traps.


At 18th level, you can still use A Stitch in Time as an immediate action, which means that you can effectively use it as a swift action as well. Which means the blender is good to go.

[Blicero]

I've read/skimmed through most of it. Honestly, this looks like it could be a lot of fun. I'll probably continue my current campaign using my homebrew system, but I would totally use this for the next campaign I run.

The biggest strength does seem to be the ease of multiclassing and the general flexibility of character development that this imparts. I haven't read most of the class abilities, but the ones that I did seemed fairly interesting.

That being said, I'm not really a fan of how you've mechanically handled races. (I dig most of the fluff, though.) There are way too many fiddly modifiers in the race packages. The fact that halflings, for example, get +2 Dex is big enough that you might want it, but it's still small enough that there'll be no difference between the Dex rolls of a halfling and a dwarf noticeable by anyone who isn't a statistics major. This stinks of a legacy mechanic to me.

One solution would be either to have +2s and -2s be +/- 4, but that would pidgeonhole certain races into certain classes even more, and nobody wants that. The smarter thing to do would prolly be to ditch racial ability modifiers altogether and just have more racial abilities. That's probably what I'll do if I run this system.

The +1/8 levels racial skill bonus also seems way too small. +2/8 levels would have been better, I think. Maybe even +2/6 levels or something.

In general, there are too many small bonuses. Light Armor's +1 to AC is, again, so small as almost to be negligible. The same goes for a mundane shield. And for a lesser weapon's +1 to hit. I realize that the game doesn't offer that many sources of boni, and that's a good thing. But the effect of a +1 on a d20 RNG is just too minor to be exciting.

That being said, I really approve of how you've abstracted all of the different weapons and armor types. This is much more elegant.

Now, on to a more formattingrelated concern: I noticed a distinct lack of indices and summary tables. This is kind of to be expected in a work created essentially for shiggles. But, all the same, I would really appreciate things like tables that list and briefly describe all of the feats and magic items, for example.

I also really enjoy the style the work is written in. It's definitely Tome-esque, and it doesn't treat the readers like they're totally unfamiliar with the concept of fantasy.

I also second the request for a "What's different from 3.x" document.


Overall: From what I've read, this does look really interesting. It's easily one of the best pieces of homebrew I've seen, and it's a shittonne better than a lot of other d20 clones (like, say, Myth & Magic). I will definitely be watching how this game progresses. And I'm almost considering becoming fairly versed in this game and asking if my players want to switch.

[JesterZero]

At 18th level, you can still use A Stitch in Time as an immediate action, which means that you can effectively use it as a swift action as well. Which means the blender is good to go.

Looks legit. At 18th, between the tracks and the relic you'd have either:

• 1xStandard, 1xMove, 5xFree, 3xSwift OR
• 1xStandard, 1xMove, 5xFree, 2xImmediate

That's pretty sick. Even more so if you're using the Blaze Bolter like you mentioned.