Realistic Magic in RPG's

[老子]

Look at it this way: How do you explain charm person realistically? Realistically charm person involves being able to induce current in someone's brain from a distance (repeatedly over the duration of the spell, even while they move) in order to change their opinions. And if you can do that you can kill them with the exact same ability applied in a slightly different way.

So if you can do things like charm, if you can create things from nothing, if you can project force at a distance, if you can do any of the things that you need to be able to do to explain the normal variety of magical effects from the PHB, then you can kill people with ease. On the other hand, yes, if your magic is extremely imprecise and lacks a number of these capabilities then you can't kill people with ease. But you can't do much in the way of the traditional magical effects either. You can't shape change people, teleport people, charm them, create light or matter, etc.

[TavishArtair]

Or it could just be some pheromone applications flung straight at them.

As opposed to, you know, electrochemical disruption.

[老子]

Or it could just be some pheromone applications flung straight at them.

As opposed to, you know, electrochemical disruption.

That's hardly "realistic" since <MORBO>PHEREMONES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY</MORBO>

[TavishArtair]

I invite you to actually back that statement up, and use less 4chan memes. Humans aren't really that special, and pheromones have been shown to have that kind of effect on just about every other animal, including people.

[&#32769;&#23376;]

I invite you to actually back that statement up, and use less 4chan memes. Humans aren't really that special, and pheromones have been shown to have that kind of effect on just about every other animal, including people.

Pheremones can have an effect, but they aren't mind-control. Otherwise I would be robbing banks with a pheremone spray right now. Actually I should say pheremones /might/ have an effect, since it's not even clear whether humans are affected by them. See wikipedia for a short synopsis. See also: http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/2052 In conclusion a) they might not have an effect b) if they do it is a small one (which explains why their existence is so hard to demonstrate). And, even supposing that isn't the case, there are plenty of other mind control effects that pheremones can't even possibly account for. E.g.: suggestion, domination, and even the humble sleep.

Here's another, lower level example of the problem: Take sleep. Sleep is either a) reaching into someones mind and flipping them into off mode by induction or b) putting them to sleep through chemical means.

If a) then being able to use sleep requires the same ability required to insta-kill someone. If b) then a higher dosage of the same effect should be a guaranteed kill, as any anesthesiologist will tell you. And so there should be a lvl 2 spell which is an AOE kill. Either way, a "realistic" explanation of sleep requires abilities that could easily be used to kill.

[Prak]

Here's another, lower level example of the problem: Take sleep. Sleep is either a) reaching into someones mind and flipping them into off mode by induction or b) putting them to sleep through chemical means.

If a) then being able to use sleep requires the same ability required to insta-kill someone. If b) then a higher dosage of the same effect should be a guaranteed kill, as any anesthesiologist will tell you. And so there should be a lvl 2 spell which is an AOE kill. Either way, a "realistic" explanation of sleep requires abilities that could easily be used to kill.

eh... not quite.

Why would sleep and "kill" be the same switch? Maybe it requires more "force" to hit the switch to the third position and kill the person, ie, higher level magic.

And why the hell do you jump from "chemical sleep at first level" to "chemical DEATH FOR EVERYONE WITHIN AN AREA!" at second?
[morbo]MAGIC DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY![/morbo]

[angelfromanotherpin]

Why would sleep and "kill" be the same switch? Maybe it requires more "force" to hit the switch to the third position and kill the person, ie, higher level magic.

Honestly, I think once you're mucking around inside someone's brain functions, the hard part would be *not* killing/crippling them.

I think in Niven's The Magic Goes Away one of the casters notes that killing spells are in fact the easiest.

[Prak]

Why would sleep and "kill" be the same switch? Maybe it requires more "force" to hit the switch to the third position and kill the person, ie, higher level magic.

Honestly, I think once you're mucking around inside someone's brain functions, the hard part would be *not* killing/crippling them.

I think in Niven's The Magic Goes Away one of the casters notes that killing spells are in fact the easiest.

hm, just because they're the easiest, doesn't mean they'd be taught sooner

[violence in the media]

Why would sleep and "kill" be the same switch? Maybe it requires more "force" to hit the switch to the third position and kill the person, ie, higher level magic.

Honestly, I think once you're mucking around inside someone's brain functions, the hard part would be *not* killing/crippling them.

I think in Niven's The Magic Goes Away one of the casters notes that killing spells are in fact the easiest.

hm, just because they're the easiest, doesn't mean they'd be taught sooner

So you're saying that spell levels are the order in which things are taught? What's to prevent a student with the appropriate intellect and access from just skipping to the 5th or 9th level spells?

If you were an evil bastard, you could cause a lot of havoc by turning a bunch of apprentices loose with slay living and wail of the banshee if the only restriction to doing so is a general agreement not to give uzis to schoolchildren.

[Prak]

it's a flavour based suggestion, trying to keep first level characters from running around with slay living.

[Just another user]

Look at it this way: How do you explain charm person realistically? Realistically charm person involves being able to induce current in someone's brain from a distance (repeatedly over the duration of the spell, even while they move) in order to change their opinions. And if you can do that you can kill them with the exact same ability applied in a slightly different way.

So if you can do things like charm, if you can create things from nothing, if you can project force at a distance, if you can do any of the things that you need to be able to do to explain the normal variety of magical effects from the PHB, then you can kill people with ease. On the other hand, yes, if your magic is extremely imprecise and lacks a number of these capabilities then you can't kill people with ease. But you can't do much in the way of the traditional magical effects either. You can't shape change people, teleport people, charm them, create light or matter, etc.

That is like to saying that if you can browse the Internet you can also program a super intelligent AI software, after all you use computers to do both.

[Prak]

technically it's like saying that if you can program an appointment database, you can program a bot to hack into the pentagon. Because both use programming.

Sure, but they're completely different levels of programming.

[&#32769;&#23376;]

No, it's like saying that if you can produce Chloroform to knock someone out that you can also produce Chloroform to kill them. If you can teleport a person, you can also teleport part of a person. Etc. Unlike your crappy ass programming analogy these aren't different skills, it is literally different applications of the same skill.

[norms29]

technically it's like saying that if you can program an appointment database, you can program a bot to hack into the pentagon. Because both use programming.

Sure, but they're completely different levels of programming.

actually it's like saying the converse, that is; if you can program a bot to hack into the pentagon, you can program an appointment database.

because they both use programing and THE SECOND ONE IS ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE EASIER.

life is a complex interdependent process, which means that at any alteration you make, at any given level of power, precision, and accuracy. for every one manipulation you can perform to acheive a spell effect, there are an uncountable, possible infinite number of other manipulations applying the same power, precision, and accuracy, to cause death.

if magic can interfere with someones brain, do you really think it would be easier to alter things specifically and persistantly to make someone think they're your friend. or to alter the brainstem in ANY WAY AT ALL.

[K]

No, it's like saying that if you can produce Chloroform to knock someone out that you can also produce Chloroform to kill them. If you can teleport a person, you can also teleport part of a person. Etc. Unlike your crappy ass programming analogy these aren't different skills, it is literally different applications of the same skill.

Chloroform will kill you if the dosage is not correctly administered according to your body weight and absorbed by your body at a certain rate, and even then you might have a reaction that kills you. Michael Jackson died from a similar thing when he attempted to get some sleep, and he had a doctor watching over him.

Science deals in precision, and the problem with "scientific" magic is that making it model fantasy fiction involves glossing over a lot of problems. Basically, its not worth it.

[RandomCasualty2]

Here's another, lower level example of the problem: Take sleep. Sleep is either a) reaching into someones mind and flipping them into off mode by induction or b) putting them to sleep through chemical means.

Or maybe sleep and charm are simply some manner of subliminal message that occurs by placing a message on the astral plane (or some other dimension). The brain can perceive these things on a subconscious level and for whatever reason, it is very open to suggestion from these subconscious messages.

The suggestion isn't capable of actually causing the brain to shut down, but it can induce sleep, get a character to follow basic commands, or to confuse you into thinking that someone is your friend or enemy.

[Ice9]

First off, I though we were discussing realistic magic systems in general, not "could D&D magic be realistic". Yes, if you have Sleep at 1st level, it does make it hard to understand why you get death spells so much later or never. In a system that followed the principles I mentioned, you wouldn't get Sleep as a low-level spell.

Second, to continue the "magic resistance as immune system" idea, the evolved resistance to magic mostly took place before the development of intelligence. Therefore, it does a worse job protecting mental functions than it does basic physiological ones, and responds less to anything that isn't obviously dangerous. So it could be, in fact, easier to charm someone than kill them.

And to take some specific examples:

fill their lungs with a solid substance

Magic resistance, as I described it, also covers the area inside a creature.

create a blockage in their airway (creating it outside and using magic to force it inside)

Definitely possible. However, with the amount of precision required, this isn't any easier than smashing them with a huge fist of air. And they could turn their head out of the way.

create a tiny wall of force around their mouth and nose

Quite a high-level spell, with the amount of precision necessary to aim and maintain correctly. And easy to escape, if they can break line of sight to you.

or drop a cloud of chlorine gas (or some even more lethal substance) on them.

This is probably the most practical, but it's not what I'd call a low-level spell. You're creating/transmuting a large volume into a precise substance, and with enough control that it won't float over to you instead. Legitimate moderately high-level spell.


I think I will add a 3rd principle though:
3) Magic is not auto-piloting. If you want to keep a force-wall over someone's mouth, then you have to maintain concentration and continue moving it accordingly. Even if you had enough strength to cast a spell that worked on individual molecules (unlikely), you would still have no way of designating a target without a microscope.

[Psychic Robot]

This is SCIENCE!. I'm pretty sure that we can make pheromones work that way if we want to.

[&#32769;&#23376;]

or drop a cloud of chlorine gas (or some even more lethal substance) on them.

This is probably the most practical, but it's not what I'd call a low-level spell. You're creating/transmuting a large volume into a precise substance, and with enough control that it won't float over to you instead. Legitimate moderately high-level spell.

How about Chloroform? It's lethal at 500 ppm (parts per million) and it's extremely simply chemically - CHCl3. If you can create anything from nothing surely you can hit 500 ppm. Or how about Phosgene (COCl2), an even better choice, lethal at 50 ppm after even a brief exposure? Note you don't need to create a lot, you just need a small ball around your subject's head, since they will be dead (or in a coma) before it can dissipate to non-lethal levels.

[Quantumboost]

or drop a cloud of chlorine gas (or some even more lethal substance) on them.

This is probably the most practical, but it's not what I'd call a low-level spell. You're creating/transmuting a large volume into a precise substance, and with enough control that it won't float over to you instead. Legitimate moderately high-level spell.

How about Chloroform? It's lethal at 500 ppm (parts per million) and it's extremely simply chemically - CHCl3. If you can create anything from nothing surely you can hit 500 ppm. Or how about Phosgene (COCl2), an even better choice, lethal at 50 ppm after even a brief exposure? Note you don't need to create a lot, you just need a small ball around your subject's head, since they will be dead (or in a coma) before it can dissipate to non-lethal levels.

...Chlorine is even simpler chemically than chloroform or phosgene. If chemical simplicity was the issue, chlorine wouldn't be the example given. Still high-level, especially since you'd be transmuting something into other elements (Cl in all cases) and that sort of thing is presumably not trivial.

[&#32769;&#23376;]

And so your system can't contain spells like acid arrow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidArrow.htm). A low level spell which creates acid (more complex then chlorine) from nothing. I'm sure I can find a 1st level spell that creates matter form nothing, but I'm too lazy to look. I know, the defense here is that you don't want to recreate D&D style magic, but I'm simply not sure what we have left at low intermediate level at this point.

So, since your (collective) responses seem to amount to ruling out more and more abilities perhaps I should ask for a list of what capabilities you would allow to exist at a pre-killing people instantly level, and then I can describe how to twist them into killing people.

Edit: should have looked down a little further. Acid splash (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidSplash.htm) is a level 0 spell that creates matter from nothing.

[Ice9]

What's with all the references to D&D spells? I never claimed that D&D magic could be made realistic, I said that you could have a game with a realistic magic system that wasn't an automatic "win" button. So forget D&D, ok?

And incidentally, I would say that transmuting matter is not a trivial effect. IMO, a reasonable sequence of difficulty (along the precision axis) would be:
1) Mechanical Changes: Causing a door to open, or a crossbow to fire. Telekinesis is in this category, but generally uses a lot of power.
2) Structural Changes: Causing a sword to twist into a knot, or a doorway to open in a solid wall.
3) Catalyzing/Inhibiting Reactions:Causing the air to catch fire, or forming sulfuric acid from sulfur and water.
4) Atomic Transmutation:Turning air into chlorine, or a boulder into a wheel of cheese. Also disintegration, for most practical purposes.
5) Atomic Creation/Destruction:Actually creating matter from nothing, or smashing atoms for fun and profit.

Keep in mind the power axis is separate, so while lifting a mountain with telekinesis requires little precision, it requires massive power and thus massive difficulty.

[Ice9]

Decided to clarify my proposed system, as it's spread out over several posts.

Principle I
The precision and power of an effect are added together to determine the difficulty of casting it. Doing something which affects a single grain of sand and leaves the ones next to it untouched is of massive difficulty, even if all you do is make it one degree hotter.

Principle II
As a result of evolution within a magical environment, all living creatures are fairly resistant to magic. It's extremely difficult to use magic on, or within, a living creature. Yes, this includes things inside of people's lungs/stomach.

Principle III
Magic has no auto-pilot. If you want to target someone's optic nerve, that's as difficult to aim as shooting them in the eye. If you want to keep a bubble of nitrous oxide around someone's head, you have to manually move it accordingly whenever they move (aka concentration and line of sight).

A Note on Lethality
Magic can often be used to create potentially fatal effects. So can a gun. Whatever "protagonist defense" PCs have against being shot in the face should apply equally to magic. And especially in a modern setting, being able to kill people is no big deal; anyone can throw a grenade.


It occurs to me that with Principle III in effect, mind-control magic would be difficult as hell. You'd need an immobilized subject and expert knowledge of neural anatomy, even with all the magic power in the world. This might be desirable - mind-control certainly changes the world a lot. If it isn't, you'd need some kind of phlebotonum like "thought waves" to relax the targetting requirements.

[&#32769;&#23376;]

1) Mechanical Changes: Causing a door to open, or a crossbow to fire. Telekinesis is in this category, but generally uses a lot of power.

This is enough. I suggest remote neck snapping. It's both low power and low precision. Much lower precision than firing a crossbow. And roughly the same amount of force required to open a well stuck door. If you can't pull off remote neck snapping then it would seem like you have too little power or precision to do anything.

Edit: also I will note that your system apparently can't accommodate teleportation (no mechanics for it) or raising the dead (too much precision).

[Quantumboost]

This is enough. I suggest remote neck snapping. It's both low power and low precision. Much lower precision than firing a crossbow. And roughly the same amount of force required to open a well stuck door. If you can't pull off remote neck snapping then it would seem like you have too little power or precision to do anything.

...you can also sneak up on a person and snap their neck using your own personal strength. With probably significantly less effort and learning. You aren't just telekinesing in one direction, you have to apply two forces of moderate strength which each affect only half the head. Or an incredible amount of force to the head or neck directly. Note that a "low precision" force wouldn't be applying to "the head", it would be applying to "the person as a whole" - which means you're probably just shoving them.

Edit: also I will note that your system apparently can't accommodate teleportation (no mechanics for it) or raising the dead (too much precision).

I fail to see where this is a bad thing. Shadowrun gets by while specifically disallowing these things, and it isn't even a fully realistic magic system. In fact, this is probably absolutely necessary unless you're letting people actually do things like "instantaneously shift velocity to near-lightspeed and quantum-tunnel" or "create wormholes" with magic. And at that point you're just in crazytown, just as much as high-level D&D.