OSSR [Spin-off]: Good

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
angelfromanotherpin
Overlord
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Chapter 2: Hero

So this chapter has its own intro/summary here, as opposed to the previous summary back on the into page. Again there's a refusal to distinguish moral and physical heroism, and there's a brief mention about incorporating character motivation mechanically.

Monster Hordes
Okay, so these are rules for mowing down large amounts of chaff enemies more easily. If you are a Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger, they kick in on enemies at least 8 CR below you. If you're a Rogue, Cleric, or Druid, they kick in on enemies at least 10 CR below you. Wizards and Sorcerers are specifically barred from participating. As is par for the course, no mention is made of any other base classes (though the pattern's easy enough to extrapolate from), but more importantly no mention is made of multiclass characters. I have no idea which level of access a Fighter/Wizard is intended to be allowed to use.

These rules also only apply when the characters use 'physical weapons rather than spells.' Given that several spells are physical weapons...

Seriously, I think I'm just going to have to stop pointing out every time this book is too lazy to fill in even the most immediate and obvious gray areas. It's fucking everywhere, it's a saturation.

So, what's the actual meat? Against stuff that qualifies as chaff to you, your attacks do not miss on a natural 1, your hits always deal at least enough damage to drop them to -1, and for every five points your attack roll exceeds the AC of your target, you hit another piece of chaff (and can remove your victims from anywhere in a contiguous group that you threaten at least one of). Finally, on any turn you use an attack action on any chaff, you can move into (and through) spaces occupied by chaff as if they weren't there (still drawing attacks of opportunity), even displacing any of them if you end your move in a space they occupied. This totally stacks with all extra attack shenanigans like the Rapid Shot chain or the Cleave chain. Ranged attackers still need to spend ammo for each target they kill, and Crossbow users who don't Rapid Reload need not apply.

And while that's obviously going to result in some hilarious weed-whacker impressions, I honestly don't know if it's an improvement to the game. As a power-up for martial-types it's not obviously bad, though there's always the chance that the Cleric will highjack it. I don't know if the different CR cutoff is enough to make the difference. I also don't know if it cuts in soon enough for anybody to care at all; does even a Fighter really care about Warrior 1 Orcs at level 8 (or Barbarian 10 orcs at level 18)? Like, even to the extent that a giant pile of them might impede his movement toward a real enemy?


Heroic Traits and Action Dice
Okay, this section goes beyond unclear into outright contradictory.

The short version is that as a PC (or major NPC) you have a number of Heroic Traits which are personal motivations for you. Taking action toward these motivations gives you Action Dice, which are a resource you can spend on fulfilling these motivations. If you work against or flagrantly ignore your motivations, you get a penalty. So far, so fairly standard.

How many Heroic Traits do you get? Well, one section says that you get one at level 1, and another one at every level. Another section says that 'as a rule of thumb, a character cannot have more than three heroic traits at any one time.'

What does an appropriate Heroic Trait look like? Well, it lists and explicates six guidelines to keep in mind, including self-sacrifice, danger, attainability, responsibility, and goodness (or evilness for villains). But the last guideline is 'specificity,' where it says:
This point is open to DM interpretation, but heroic traits are not an excuse to gain a bonus in every situation imaginable. A vague goal such as 'fight evil' is not an acceptable trait. A better goal names a specific villain, a village or city, or a single person.
Which is fine except that in the wrap up of the segment, almost immediately after all that, it says:
A heroic trait can be something as simple as a one-word trait, such as 'generous.'
So even text under the same sub-sub-heading is arguing with itself. The book has six writers and I don't know who wrote what, but I would bet money that the heroic trait section was contributed by Mearls. It is exactly the sort of first draft resource management crap he loves to get published.

I like the concept, I think it's great to actually support PCs running around with 'protect Princess Buttercup' and 'kill the Six-Fingered Man' on their sheets. It would be great if someone had written rules for that instead of almost writing them.


New Feats
There are 15 feats, and 7 of them are named 'Hero's <insert noun here>.' Even more of them are too sad to comment on.

There is the hilarious Divine Smite metamagic feat, which for 'only' +2 adjustment lets you have a spell only affect targets of a specific alignment. Commence checking for enemies Pyro-style and trolling the Paladin with illusions only they can see.


New Prestige Classes
Celestial Herald: Bard prestige classes with half casting progression make baby Jesus cry.

Divine Healer: It's a full-casting class with an extra ability every level. Sounds like it could be worthwhile, right? Well, unfortunately it also comes with a code of conduct that includes never seeking to harm a living being. It's not as bad as the BoED Vow nonsense, because it doesn't constrain your friends at all. It also only counts intentional violations, but it is super harsh because you immediately lose all Divine Healer abilities and can never level as a Divine Healer again, and atonement is never mentioned. The abilities are underwhelming as well, mostly involving piddly boosts to your heal amounts and 1/day extra healing effects. It does have one interesting ability in Share Life Force, which is a 1/day the DH loses 1d4 levels and their touch-range friend gains 1d4 levels (both effects for 1 round/level). It seems like it could enable some wonderfully dramatic scenes, except that using it would cause the pace of play to hit a brick wall.

Hospitaler: This is ostensibly a class about being a field medic who also hits people without killing them. It also does so without ever referencing subdual damage, which is kind of impressive. It's a medium-BAB fighting class with abilities that are mostly complete bullshit, except that its level 3 ability, Crippling Blow, is insanely deadly; when you make an attack, you can strike to cripple instead of wound - the attack is gimped, with only Dex bonuses to attack counting, so ranged or Weapon Finesse. If you hit, choose Str, Dex, or Con(!!!) and make a Heal check with a DC of 20+target's chosen stat - if you succeed, your attack does ability damage to that stat. And that's supposed to be a less lethal option? Especially since some poorly edited stuff at the end strongly implies you still actually also do normal damage with this attack? Sure, you have to cheese out your Heal bonus, but whatever. The later abilities actually get kind of cool (although not good). At level 9, killing someone provokes an attack of opportunity from you; at level 10, you can 'take back your healing' to SoD people you've previously healed.

Knight Crusader: This guy is basically the Paladin as a Prestige class for a fighter-type with no Divine casting. Sure, you have to have burned a bunch of your extremely limited skill points on Knowledge (Religion), and your spell list doesn't have any Cure effects on it, and you start off casting a level behind a straight Paladin. Your casting actually catches and passes a Paladin's, and you get at least one class feature per level to boot. Your Divine Favor is called Fanatic Will and is a straight +2 so you don't even care what your Charisma is. You get a pile of bonus feats off the fighter list that someone forgot to put 'must fulfill the prerequisites' on, so load up with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting and all that jazz. Hell, you even get a version of Barbarian Rage (usable only against evil enemies). It's all so butch you might even forget you're still only a martial character for a few rounds.

Okay, I need a break. There's like 8 more of these things.
User avatar
Prak
Serious Badass
Posts: 17361
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Prak »

Angelfromanotherpin wrote:Divine Healer: It's a full-casting class with an extra ability every level. Sounds like it could be worthwhile, right? Well, unfortunately it also comes with a code of conduct that includes never seeking to harm a living being. It's not as bad as the BoED Vow nonsense, because it doesn't constrain your friends at all. It also only counts intentional violations, but it is super harsh because you immediately lose all Divine Healer abilities and can never level as a Divine Healer again, and atonement is never mentioned.
See, I'm ok with non-violence characters who don't constrain their comrades. In the Runequest Glorantha games I've played, on player played a couple of healer characters, followers of Chalana Arroy/Xemela (the celto-viking culture healing goddess and monotheistic saint of healing, respectively), which both restrict their followers from killing. Basically, Chalana Arroy-ists can fight chaos (which in Glorantha is more like cancerous play dough than a tendency towards being a libertarian dick), and both are allowed to destroy undead, but neither is allowed to kill living, non-chaos tainted creatures. They can subdue them, and if they do, then the creature is under their protection and their allies are not allowed to kill them, but it worked fine. She would buff and heal us, throw down sleep type submission spells, and we really didn't care too much about killing everything. We did tend to fight a lot of chaos and undead, but I think that's kind of how those games go.
Notably, there is a ransom mechanic baked into the system, which I think more games could use. Basically it grows out what I have to assume was a kind of standard thing in ancient cultures who were not at war with one another, where, instead of going to war because some dick with your colours killed some shepherd with their colours, you (or more usually, the dick under your colours) pays reparations.
Oh, apparently it's from germanic Salic law
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
User avatar
Maxus
Overlord
Posts: 7645
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Maxus »

That Knight-Crusader sounds interesting. Reminds me just a bit of the Quest for Glory paladin, where they're still a fighter, have all the benefits of a fighter, but get fun extras to play with. Like detecting danger, healing (although using it tires them out) and Smite Evil.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
User avatar
angelfromanotherpin
Overlord
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Okay, the rest of the Prestige Classes...

The Masked Avenger is a virtuous outlaw type, and while the illustration looks like a Rogue, it's really for Rangers. Probably because Robin Hood, even though he didn't really do the mask thing. Doesn't do anything level-appropriate, and the only interesting thing is that it gets Favored Enemy targeting organizations and groups; though there's no mention of retraining that, so for defeating the Sheriff of Nottingham, you get a big screw you.

Nature's Champion is a specifically Good Druid (or nature-focused Cleric or Priest, I guess). It's a half-casting progression, so it's terrible, and it does some boring stuff with celestial-templated animals.

The Paladine is another 'Paladin-as-Prestige-Class,' this time specifically mentioned as such, as if the Knight Crusader didn't come first. Its requirements are less strict, but it is also terrible, dribbling out the stuff the Paladin gets in its first two levels over this class's first four levels. Seriously, your class feature for level 8 is Smite Evil; your class feature for level 9 is Aura of Courage. It also gives half-casting as a Cleric. Just awful.

The Shadow Seeker is a Good Rogue, and also a plucky reporter or something out to reveal 'the truth.' Doesn't have any Sneak Attack progression, and so is a non-combat class. Gets a pile of +4 competence bonuses to various skills at levels those skills have gone obsolete, as well as a 5e-style ability to use Sense Motive vs another person's Bluff to know if they are lying. Also awful.

The Truth Seeker is... conceptually very similar to the Shadow Seeker, but with even more of an emphasis on not being fooled. I honestly don't know what you're supposed to be coming into this class; I think Ranger is the only one who can get in at level 5, but it doesn't have any particular Ranger synergy. You get a pile of divination effects, levels behind the casters will have had access. Terrible.

Wandering Defender is a Monk class that appears to be inspired by Kung Fu and that is even more weaksauce than being a Monk. It makes me sad.

Wandering Highwayman is... oh, this guy is definitely Robin Hood. Seriously 'He preys upon rich-looking carriages or merchant caravans passing through his chosen domain, ambushing the travelers, stealing their riches, and giving the lion's share of the booty to the poor.' So the Masked Avenger is specifically Zorro. Huh, I never looked at Zorro and thought Ranger.

It's a Ranger class that comes with nothing you care about at the level you get it and a code of conduct that requires you to give 75% of everything you steal to the poor, wealth by level be damned. To stay appropriately equipped, you'd have to do something like spout morals with your eyes shut after every fight while your friends looted the dead, then have them 'gift' you with your share of the proceeds after you lamented that once again you had murder-robbed broke hobgoblins.

White Magician is a full-casting prestige class for Wizards or Sorcerers, which is a good start. It requires three metamagic feats and also Wisdom 15+, which is kind of harsh unless you got a very generous set of stats. You get a code of conduct which requires you to be generally whitebread and never cast Necromancy spells. The class also seems to have all bad saves, which might be a typo.

In exchange, you get some bullshit divination effects, cast Abjuration with +2 CL, some bonus Metamagic Feats. At character level 12, you get +2 to save DCs on spells you cast on Evil creatures. It's all very not special, honestly.

Next up is Magic, which looks like a doozy of a chapter.
User avatar
angelfromanotherpin
Overlord
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Chapter 3: Magic

The first part of this chapter is summoning, which is equal parts nerfing Good summoners for summoning things not of their alignment and general roleplaying tips to make summoned creatures more interesting and/or annoying to deal with.

The nerfed summoning effects are negated by a DC 20 Spellcraft check, so they start out not mattering very often and rapidly fall off the mattering at all meter, but when they show up they can seriously knock multiple levels of effectiveness off your spells.

The roleplaying tips mostly aren't bad, and involve such things as CG animals instinctively disliking taking orders and so showing up in a bad mood, which is fine for combat but could be inconvenient otherwise. But there's also a lot of stuff about various creatures needing significant and specific persuading to actually do things. Here's a taste:
In his memoirs, the wizard Serus Panthan recalls his mistake in summoning a lillend named Aylus to help him fight a tribe of Fire Giants. The unfortunate Aylus had been summoned from her native plane once too often for her liking and instead of attacking the giants, she upbraided him for disturbing her rest. Even as the giants' rocks whizzed past her and crashed around Serus, she lectured him on his presumption and the virtues of showing a little consideration for those who dwell in other planes. Only after he improvised a tale about how their present foes had used some valuable tapestries as washcloths did the lillend shift her attention to the attacking giants.
That could actually be pretty funny if handled well, but the underlying philosophy is about screwing characters that summon, for no reason.


New Spells
A lot of these are boring or sad. Add the celestial template to an animal? A slightly better Spiritual Weapom? Yawn-a-rama, I'm going to skip most of these.

Baptism of Faith is a 9th level Cleric spell that makes no sense and would probably be a game-breaker if the game hadn't broken well before people got 9th-level spells. 1 Hour casting time, target an infant of a sentient species, as long as the infant remains true to the faith it was baptized in, the caster has a stacking +1 to the save DC of all their spells. It's also an Enchantment (Compulsion) even though it doesn't actually compel anyone to do anything. And what happens when the target is under a Protection From Evil effect is anyone's guess.

Convert is actually kind of interesting, it's Cleric 4 and on a failed Will save gives the target your alignment and religion for 1 hour/level. It's also a Transmutation (Compulsion) effect, which I don't think I've seen anywhere before, and it can only be cast by goodd-aligned people, because brainwashing is so archetypally Good, amirite?

Improved Detect Evil lets you 'detect any individual of evil alignment, not just clerics of an evil deity.' Um, read Detect Evil again, guy.

Side Note: these motherfuckers just love putting fiction in their spell descriptions. 'The most notable instance [of this spell] was when the armies of the Tyrant Gaaroth attempted to annex the city-state of Hylaren.' That goes on for two more paragraphs of an event and aftermath that no-one cares about and almost certainly didn't happen in your campaign world anyway, before actually getting to mechanical effects. This shit is in every other spell description, halting the campaign of the blackguard Arcus here, and teaching Lord Justin respect for the druids of Kheldar there. There's no purpose to this, it is just padding.

Ties of Hatred is a Wizard 3 spell that targets two evil creatures and makes them violently hostile toward each other for hours/level (Will negates). I actually quite like this one.


Magic Items
Again, skipping most of these.

Studded Leather of Heroic Concealment is kind of cool, it can look like any suit of clothing a baddy would wear, grants a +10 to Bluff checks to convince baddies that you're a baddy, and conceals your alignment from all magic but true seeing.

Death is a +4 equivalent weapon enhancement that casts disintegrate on anyone you crit. I think that's not too bad compared to Vorpal (which doesn't offer a save, but also doesn't affect several things). I'm not sure why it's in Good, though. Petrification does the same thing with Flesh to Stone.

Leadership is a +2 equivalent weapon enhancement that grants the Leadership feat. Seems pretty boss, especially compared to Smiting, which is also a +2 equivalent, but gives you Smite Evil 1/day. Equivalence.

The Crossbow of Vampire Slaying totally fails at actually being able to slay vampires.

The Staff of Good casts aid, dispel evil, and blade barrier, and one of those things is not like the others or explained in any way.

The Amulet of Favored Weaponry is 5000 gp for an ordinary weapon that can turn into a holy symbol. Lolwut?

The Astrolabe of Yascen is actually fabulous. It gives a Good character a +25 enhancement bonus to Profession (Navigation) checks made to find pirates. The whole early career of an adventuring party could revolve around that thing.

The Brand of Contrition is an artifact; if you are branded with it, any crime or unprovoked hostility comes with a DC 35 will save to avoid a CL15 inflict serious wounds. Again, actually pretty cool, you could totally run at least two adventures just around that thing.

... Holy balls, there are a lot of artifacts in this thing, and most of them are boring as shit. There's a couple of them which change people's alignments to Good which have some (creepy) story potential, but most of them are just uberweapons that were owned by paladins at some point.

..and that's this chapter.
User avatar
angelfromanotherpin
Overlord
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Chapter 4: Heroic Legions

Faith Points (aka kissing Godly ass)
So faith points are a way to make everyone care more about the God whose name they wrote down on their character sheet. The first thing we're told is that the maximum number of faith points you can accumulate is based on how active the divine is in the world. High Interaction involves gods appearing to at least watch every major battle, and theocracy being the norm of government; participation in the faith point minigame is mandatory (no max). Medium Interaction is more like the standard sort of D&D assumptions; the faith point minigame is mandatory for clerics, paladins, and druids, but others can join in if they want (max 30/-15). Low Interaction involves almost no direct godly action in the current era, even if the gods may have done a bunch of stuff ages ago; only clerics/paladins/druids may use the faith points (max 10/-10)

Once per day, your actions either gain or lose you faith points based on how well you served your god. If you both fulfill and violate your god's trust, or if you do a small good thing early in the day and a bigger one later on... nobody knows what happens. Simply not addressed.

A Minor Deed grants 2 faith points to a max of 10. Generic Minor Deeds include tithing 10% of one adventure's proceeds to a church or converting a character of 8th level or below. But they have examples for every Sphere in the 3.0 PHB. A sample Minor Deed for a Luck god is using a random method to determine your next action (as long as some actual risk is involved). Yes.

A Major Deed grants 10 to a max of 40. Generic Major Deeds include building a complete temple or defeating an enemy of the faith with CR 9-14. A Major Deed of Air is spending a month without ever going indoors, because fuck dungeon crawling.

An Exalted Deed is +30 with no max. Generic exalted deeds are slay a CR 15+ follower of an enemy faith or destroy an enemy faith's most important temple (which seems like it would include killing at least one level 15+ follower. An Exalted Deed of the Sun is opening a rift in the ground that brings sunlight to a part of the Underdark at least 1 mile below ground.

Transgressions are like Deeds but in the other direction.

Sure, but what's the actual result? Well, you can spend faith points for boons. A Simple Boon costs 5 and is good for a +1 to a die roll. A Boon that mimics a Level 0-1 spell costs 10, a Level 2-3 spell costs 20, a Level 4-5 spell costs 40. And that's as big as that deal gets, which is pretty piddly, actually. I can't spot-analyze how often a character of what level could expect to produce effects of a given power, but I strongly suspect it's a lot of record-keeping for very little actual effect.

If your faith points go negative, the DM can spend them on Banes if you don't perform Deeds to get rid of them quickly enough. A Bane works on the scale above, but give you faith points (to a max of 0) at about half the cost of the Boons. I do kind of like the idea, where if you fuck up royally, either through bad luck or a specific religious trap laid by bad guys, you might then be all "oh shit guys, we have to find and defeat an enemy of the faith before my god drops a feeblemind on me." That's an abusive relationship with your god, but it does drive the action in an organic sort of way. I just feel that it's more likely that the PCs will have a faith stockpile and that trap would just reset the treadmill.


New Religious Groups
This is a pile of sample organizations that have their own Deeds, Transgressions, Boons, and Banes. Specifically, it's one for each of the PHB base classes except the Cleric/Paladin/Druid. So the Arcane Bureaucracy is for Wizards and is a church based around a shit-ton of very minor gods of knowledge and magic. It seems to be mostly filler.


Heroic Orders
This is about unique specialized organizations that don't teach you enough things to be a prestige class, but do let you grind for reputation and eventually use the company car. It is exactly as boring and inconsequential as it sounds, but man, it fills pages.
User avatar
angelfromanotherpin
Overlord
Posts: 9752
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Chapter 5: New Monsters

Last chapter, and actually really short and also boring.

The Aether Paladin is a Shadow and also a Paladin that can polymorph self twice a day if it needs to be solid for some reason.

The Celestial Griffon is a griffin that is also a good outsider with some appropriate powers.

Elemental Guardians are Good elementals. These are the most spectacularly unimaginative filler creatures. At least they only give you stats for the Large size.

Evangels are CR 18-19 angels that are so special they can only be summoned bymiracle. The NG one looks like a normal dude, the CG one is a shapechanging benevolent trickster, and the LG one is an eagle that will flying charge its beak straight through your chest, which is the most interesting any of these monsters have been yet.

The fairfiend is a creature that is good and also very ugly, so it's often judged unfairly, you guys. Despite having Int 8, it has only a rudimentary grasp of common and can't speak. It does look like what might fall out of an otyugh's cloaca after a displacer beast threw up in it, but I don't think we need a whole new monster to teach us not to judge by appearances. Especially not in D&D, where all the good dragons are shiny so it's kind of a mixed message anyway.

Contrary to most of these things being some sort of unimaginative combo, the paladin wolf is not a wolf that is also a paladin. It's a wolf that can't trip but can CMW 1/day.

Spirit pilgrims are descendents of a thinly-veiled Monkey King analogue who have been tasked/punished with wandering around fighting evil at random.

And that's the book. Wrap-up thoughts to come.
Post Reply