Do we come here because every other forum is a wasteland?

[CatharzGodfoot]

Yes. Jesus Zine, I figured that shit out when I was like 12, some forms of intolerance are acceptable, such as intolerance of bigotry and sexism.

Carthaz, Prak, until the both of you stop being idiots and figure out what malak already has (Hint: "Ideal world scenario") and that you're both just castigating me by taking on statement out of context, I'm gonna have to say you're both no better than Fox News idiots who attack Obama.

An ideal world for Hitler has no intolerance either, because all of the blacks, Ukrainians, Russians, Jews, Gays, religious types, any everybody else he had a grudge against is dead.

And don't even try to call me on Godwinning this, you already did that long ago. Although I don't mind you comparing me to a Faux News commentator--I am comparing you to Hitler, even if it is facetiously.

[Zinegata]

You can't say that you like Apples and hate Pears. They are both fruit.

Oh wait, you can. What you have to learn Zine, is that intolerance is not a bad thing. Intolerance is like a good killing. Sometimes, it's deserved.

I'm intolerant of racists. I'm intolerant of people who choose to base beliefs and decisions on things besides facts.

I'm not intolerant of racists because they are intolerant. I am intolerant of them because they are wrong. And their beliefs are baseless or based on false premises.

Another idiot who missed the "ideal world" thing and didn't read the rejoinder.

Let me correct my position. Not only is the Den full of people who are so left-wing looney that they start making wild claims like "Gaming sites are conservative!" (all evidence shows they are not).

It's full of self-important idiots who think being an asshole is justifiable behavior because hey, "I'm also intolerant of racists! That make it totally cool to be intolerant of other, pretty tame beliefs".

Like I concluded in my post, as far as I'm concerned the only correct way to approach the Den is that it's a jungle full of morons. If you get shot at, shoot back.

[Zinegata]

The thread that induced Tzor to depart was one where Frank challenged to board to show that any one policy backed by the Republicans had a basis in logic ir reason. On a lot of other boards that debate would have been stopped early on, but here it was allowed to come to a conclusion. Tzor wasn't able to show a reasoned policy, and instead of admitting he was wrong he left. I think that's a message board working as intended, instead of forcing someone to apologize or banning someone people where free to proceed how they chose to.

On SD.net they throw people into an arena and have them engage in gladiatorial combat.

And it's somehow more civilized than what happens here.

[Zinegata]

An ideal world for Hitler has no intolerance either, because all of the blacks, Ukrainians, Russians, Jews, Gays, religious types, any everybody else he had a grudge against is dead.

Did you again miss the memo that the ideal world is impossible? Oh, right, you only read the first paragraph and didn't read the rest of the post which states that this world is impossible.

A Fox News commentator is indeed extremely apt comparison for you, because like those liars they take one bit out of context, run with it, and declare moral superiority.

[Prak]

Yes. Jesus Zine, I figured that shit out when I was like 12, some forms of intolerance are acceptable, such as intolerance of bigotry and sexism.

Carthaz, Prak, until the both of you stop being idiots and figure out what malak already has (Hint: "Ideal world scenario") and that you're both just castigating me by taking on statement out of context, I'm gonna have to say you're both no better than Fox News idiots who attack Obama.

Read all of what I actually wrote, as opposed to taking the first sentence and running with it.

Fuck you. You want me to read everything you type, don't ramble like an idiot.

Oh, and for your information, I did read your original post about this ideal world bullshit, and it didn't make any damned sense. You only have yourself to blame if we're missing your grand exalted "point"

[Josh_Kablack]

you think R.A. Salvatore is a terrible person

Yes. He is.

Here's why:

Session Start (AIM - Wiz0Pony:WotCMel): Fri Jan 23 17:02:14 2004 [17:42]
WotCMel: yeah, it has been a big pile of shit for me this week, but it is Friday and I am going to make it
....
[17:43] Wiz0 Pony: well, it's attitude that counts
[17:43] Wiz0 Pony: about that pile though....what's the reasoning behind closing the novels boards?
[17:44] Wiz0 Pony: Or is that top-secret?
[17:50] WotCMel: It is top secret
[17:51] WotCMel: however, it is becuase RA Salvatore cried to the books dept every time he had a negative post on our boards. Boards couldnt manage him so they shut the boards down to make the problem go away
[17:51] Wiz0 Pony: Ugh.
[17:52] Wiz0 Pony: I know it's part of our job to make the boards more welcoming for designers and authors
[17:52] Wiz0 Pony: but there's a point where you just have to go "who cares about those crackheads on the 'net, my stuff is still selling well"
[17:55] Wiz0 Pony: Here I was thinking that it was because Hasbro had wanted to spin-off the books line (ala Pazio and Dragon)
[17:56] WotCMel: nope, much more petty than that
[17:56] WotCMel: And becuase he makes the books dept reasonable amounts of money he gets his way
[17:56] Wiz0 Pony: understandable
[17:56] WotCMel: not htat he demanded them to be down--he just wanted no negative reviews of him up whatsoever
[17:57] WotCMel: which i said would be impossible as long as the boards existed--so they killed it
[17:57] Wiz0 Pony: "If such feedback disturbs you, I suggest you use our ignore feature"...sigh
[17:58] WotCMel: indeed
[17:58] WotCMel: unless you are a diva author and then you get your way
[17:58] Wiz0 Pony: I definitely have to read some of his stuff
[17:59] Wiz0 Pony: Most of the writers whose work I really like were/are complete jerks in their lives
[18:01] WotCMel: he is just a big baby who can't NOT read the criticism on the net that makes him so unhappy
[18:01] Wiz0 Pony: exactly, and that leads me to think I might enjoy his work
[18:02] WotCMel: he apparently had Amazon.com remove a negative review
[18:02] WotCMel: interesting eh?
[18:02] Wiz0 Pony: whoa..Amazon will do that?
[18:03] WotCMel: one wouldnt think so, eh?
[18:03] Wiz0 Pony: I remember them cracking down on the totally bogus reviews a few years back..where apparently "The Family Circus" was being lauded as a new triumph in horror novels., but this is different
[18:03] WotCMel: it kinds ruins the point of unbiased reviews . . .
[18:04] WotCMel: heh
[18:05] Wiz0 Pony: Not only does it ruin unbiased reviews, but as he is not employed by or somehow involved in managing Amazon, it's perilously close to censorship
[18:06] Wiz0 Pony: I mean, can a book author walk into a Barnes and Noble and demand that they change the display for his book?
[18:07] Wiz0 Pony: Well, I suppose he could demand that...but I'd like to think that bookshops would not feel compelled to comply
[18:08] WotCMel: sorry, be with ya in a sec
[18:11] WotCMel: well, it isnt exactly the same--becuase you cant go post a "this book suxs" not in B&N
[18:11] WotCMel: however Amazon makes that out to be a big feature of its site--unbiased reviews. But if you cull out the negative stuff it makes it useless
[18:11] Wiz0 Pony: You obviously haven't seen the men's room in the local B&N
[18:12] WotCMel: point it, Bob Salvatore needs to grow up
[18:12] WotCMel: LOL
[18:12] WotCMel: um, no
[18:15] Wiz0 Pony: Well, so do a whole lot of people
[18:15] Wiz0 Pony: especially among gamers and the online community

[Zinegata]

Wow, could you point to the part where anyone besides vitm thinks that most sites are conservative again?

Dragonchild's post.

You do not fucking read. And you're full of shit.

What you are doing is taking the things Crissa says that you most disagree with, the things I say that you most disagree with, ect, and then placing the entire bundle at the feat of the Den Hive Mind.

Nope, I'm pointing out that you're all assholes and that you treat all other people like assholes and thus the Den Hive Mind is that of an asshole.

Which is why mean_liar's normal friends think this site is full of assholes.

That you all have looney left-wing ideas (not the same ones, but all are ones that make Jon Stewart look conservative), is just one of the common threads that you all also share, and you all tend to use them one way or another to justify this asshole behavior.

So again, the only real way to deal with the Den (my conclusion at the end of the "intolerance is never justifiable" rant) is that to treat is like a jungle full of assholes.

[Zinegata]

Fuck you. You want me to read everything you type, don't ramble like an idiot.

Fuck you. If you want to reply to something, read the whole post instead of shooting off your mouth because you want to look smart.

[Prak]

A person being a bitch to you never justifies sexism against them. No matter what. Michael Richards learned the same lesson about racism. As soon as you devolve into a bigot, you loose any high ground you may have once had.

No, in an ideal world intolerance is never justifiable. Not just sexism or racism. Intolerance.

But frankly, the Den is not a tolerant board. It's a mostly far-left looney bin who are such utter assholes about their ideology that it makes Jon Stewart look like a conservative. People here have even argued that we should keep having abortions for the sole purpose of dulling the public's senses and kill off the Pro-Life crowd.

So if your forum allows people to throw shit, don't whine when shit gets thrown back at you. You cannot be selective with your tolerance.

Ok, again, in an ideal world, intolerance can't be tolerated? What about not liking mauve. If I'm intolerant of brusselsprouts should I be shot in an ideal world?

[Zinegata]

you think R.A. Salvatore is a terrible person

Yes. He is.

Here's why:

Session Start (AIM - Wiz0Pony:WotCMel): Fri Jan 23 17:02:14 2004 [17:42]
WotCMel: yeah, it has been a big pile of shit for me this week, but it is Friday and I am going to make it
....
[17:43] Wiz0 Pony: well, it's attitude that counts
[17:43] Wiz0 Pony: about that pile though....what's the reasoning behind closing the novels boards?
[17:44] Wiz0 Pony: Or is that top-secret?
[17:50] WotCMel: It is top secret
[17:51] WotCMel: however, it is becuase RA Salvatore cried to the books dept every time he had a negative post on our boards. Boards couldnt manage him so they shut the boards down to make the problem go away
[17:51] Wiz0 Pony: Ugh.
[17:52] Wiz0 Pony: I know it's part of our job to make the boards more welcoming for designers and authors
[17:52] Wiz0 Pony: but there's a point where you just have to go "who cares about those crackheads on the 'net, my stuff is still selling well"
[17:55] Wiz0 Pony: Here I was thinking that it was because Hasbro had wanted to spin-off the books line (ala Pazio and Dragon)
[17:56] WotCMel: nope, much more petty than that
[17:56] WotCMel: And becuase he makes the books dept reasonable amounts of money he gets his way
[17:56] Wiz0 Pony: understandable
[17:56] WotCMel: not htat he demanded them to be down--he just wanted no negative reviews of him up whatsoever
[17:57] WotCMel: which i said would be impossible as long as the boards existed--so they killed it
[17:57] Wiz0 Pony: "If such feedback disturbs you, I suggest you use our ignore feature"...sigh
[17:58] WotCMel: indeed
[17:58] WotCMel: unless you are a diva author and then you get your way
[17:58] Wiz0 Pony: I definitely have to read some of his stuff
[17:59] Wiz0 Pony: Most of the writers whose work I really like were/are complete jerks in their lives
[18:01] WotCMel: he is just a big baby who can't NOT read the criticism on the net that makes him so unhappy
[18:01] Wiz0 Pony: exactly, and that leads me to think I might enjoy his work
[18:02] WotCMel: he apparently had Amazon.com remove a negative review
[18:02] WotCMel: interesting eh?
[18:02] Wiz0 Pony: whoa..Amazon will do that?
[18:03] WotCMel: one wouldnt think so, eh?
[18:03] Wiz0 Pony: I remember them cracking down on the totally bogus reviews a few years back..where apparently "The Family Circus" was being lauded as a new triumph in horror novels., but this is different
[18:03] WotCMel: it kinds ruins the point of unbiased reviews . . .
[18:04] WotCMel: heh
[18:05] Wiz0 Pony: Not only does it ruin unbiased reviews, but as he is not employed by or somehow involved in managing Amazon, it's perilously close to censorship
[18:06] Wiz0 Pony: I mean, can a book author walk into a Barnes and Noble and demand that they change the display for his book?
[18:07] Wiz0 Pony: Well, I suppose he could demand that...but I'd like to think that bookshops would not feel compelled to comply
[18:08] WotCMel: sorry, be with ya in a sec
[18:11] WotCMel: well, it isnt exactly the same--becuase you cant go post a "this book suxs" not in B&N
[18:11] WotCMel: however Amazon makes that out to be a big feature of its site--unbiased reviews. But if you cull out the negative stuff it makes it useless
[18:11] Wiz0 Pony: You obviously haven't seen the men's room in the local B&N
[18:12] WotCMel: point it, Bob Salvatore needs to grow up
[18:12] WotCMel: LOL
[18:12] WotCMel: um, no
[18:15] Wiz0 Pony: Well, so do a whole lot of people
[18:15] Wiz0 Pony: especially among gamers and the online community

... Wow.

[Zinegata]

Ok, again, in an ideal world, intolerance can't be tolerated? What about not liking mauve. If I'm intolerant of brusselsprouts should I be shot in an ideal world?

Read what I posted to malak.

[Prak]

Ok, again, in an ideal world, intolerance can't be tolerated? What about not liking mauve. If I'm intolerant of brusselsprouts should I be shot in an ideal world?

Read what I posted to malak.

Yeah, I'm reading it, you still sound like an idiot.

Intolerance isn't justifiable. Hitler had his own justifications for being intolerant to Jews, but it doesn't make them right.

So genocide is something that should be tolerated?

Eh? That's the exact opposite of what I said.

Again:

No, in an ideal world intolerance is never justifiable. Not just sexism or racism. Intolerance.

Really. The Den is full of idiots who prefer to re-interpret other people's words just to score brownie points.

So basically you're saying "we should not tolerate intolerance"

[ubernoob]

Zine, on this page your posts are 60% of the TOTAL content. You are literally posting more than everyone else combined. Go outside, see the sun, and get your ass laid. Or go harass some minorities. Whatever makes you happy.

[Prak]

Malak->
Also, you claim that my position leads to... "You should be tolerant to people who commit genocide".

That fails utterly for a simple reason:

My position is that intolerance is never justified.

Genocide is an extreme form of intolerance.

Therefore genocide is not a justified action. Ever. That comes with moral absolutes.

Whether justified or not, in your ideal world, we must tolerate it.

Belief in a three in one invisible bearded worship addict is not justified either, does that mean it's perfectly ok to not tolerate it?

[DragonChild]

Dragonchild's post.

I never said that most do. All I said is that some massive, insane conservative RPG websites exist ("The big bang is a liberal conspiracy"), and so someone who had visted more of them than liberal ones may very well come with that perception. I honestly don't know one way or the other. For someone who's being extremely nitpicky about how people portray your words, you're quick to jump the gun when it comes to portraying others.

PS: Pony is my fourth favorite WizO. ;p

[Kaelik]

Another idiot who missed the "ideal world" thing and didn't read the rejoinder.

Let me correct my position. Not only is the Den full of people who are so left-wing looney that they start making wild claims like "Gaming sites are conservative!" (all evidence shows they are not).

It's full of self-important idiots who think being an asshole is justifiable behavior because hey, "I'm also intolerant of racists! That make it totally cool to be intolerant of other, pretty tame beliefs".

Like I concluded in my post, as far as I'm concerned the only correct way to approach the Den is that it's a jungle full of morons. If you get shot at, shoot back.

No, I didn't miss your ideal world cop out. You are claiming that for someone to be opposed to one intolerance, but not to another is hypocritical because they are both intolerance.

What you are missing is that other criteria for what to oppose exist besides intolerance. I have never in my life opposed something because it was intolerant. I oppose things because they are wrong. Or because I don't like them. Or any reason that is not intolerance.

I am correctly pointing out that you can oppose principles for reasons besides intolerance, and so your arbitrary complaint that he's hypocritical to oppose one intolerance and not another is wrong.

And no, I'm not claiming that my being an asshole is justified because I'm intolerant of racists. I've never claimed that my being an asshole is justified at all, because I am a moral error theorist, and so I think that justification does not exist, and no action could ever possibly be justified, unless you redefine justified to be how someone feels, in which case, I feel all my actions are "justified" and I don't care how you feel.

The fact that you are too stupid to understand that I am using my intolerance of racists as a point about how intolerance's moral value, even to someone who believes in them, is not always bad, but instead think I am trying to justify behavior that needs no justification is your own problem with your own ability to pay attention to other people's arguments.

PS: No Dragonchild didn't.

[Zinegata]

Zine, on this page your posts are 60% of the TOTAL content. You are literally posting more than everyone else combined. Go outside, see the sun, and get your ass laid. Or go harass some minorities. Whatever makes you happy.

I thought I told you to keep me on your ignore list forever?

[Prak]

he doesn't need to see what you write to know you're contributing 60% of the posts on a page.

[Zinegata]

Malak->
Also, you claim that my position leads to... "You should be tolerant to people who commit genocide".

That fails utterly for a simple reason:

My position is that intolerance is never justified.

Genocide is an extreme form of intolerance.

Therefore genocide is not a justified action. Ever. That comes with moral absolutes.

Whether justified or not, in your ideal world, we must tolerate it.

Belief in a three in one invisible bearded worship addict is not justified either, does that mean it's perfectly ok to not tolerate it?

If intolerance exists in that world, then it's not an ideal world.

Again, you're just finding silly loopholes in an out-of-context statement and ignore that the argument is, in fact, the Den is full of assholes?

[Zinegata]

he doesn't need to see what you write to know you're contributing 60% of the posts on a page.

So he's a moron making statements based on post counts and not content.

[Zinegata]

I am a moral error theorist, and so I think that justification does not exist, and no action could ever possibly be justified, unless you redefine justified to be how someone feels, in which case, I feel all my actions are "justified" and I don't care how you feel.

I rest my case that the Den is full of self-important assholes.

[Prak]

Malak->
Also, you claim that my position leads to... "You should be tolerant to people who commit genocide".

That fails utterly for a simple reason:

My position is that intolerance is never justified.

Genocide is an extreme form of intolerance.

Therefore genocide is not a justified action. Ever. That comes with moral absolutes.

Whether justified or not, in your ideal world, we must tolerate it.

Belief in a three in one invisible bearded worship addict is not justified either, does that mean it's perfectly ok to not tolerate it?

If intolerance exists in that world, then it's not an ideal world.

Again, you're just finding silly loopholes in an out-of-context statement and ignore that the argument is, in fact, the Den is full of assholes?

Attention Den: I will now do a public service, at great personal risk of insanity, by translating from Zinegata to sane person:
In an ideal world there is no intolerance to tolerate because intolerance doesn't exist. At all. Ever.

So moving past the fact that this is an impossible world and Zine should stfu up about it, this means that crime cannot and should not be punished, that children should not be disciplined, and that Hitler should be ruling Europe. Or have died as a painter, not sure which.

Intolerance, to some degree, is necessary. If there is no one not tolerating things, then someone can march right into your house and take your shit, because you have to tolerate his actions, and stopping him, or punishing him, is a form of intolerance.

[Kaelik]

I am a moral error theorist, and so I think that justification does not exist, and no action could ever possibly be justified, unless you redefine justified to be how someone feels, in which case, I feel all my actions are "justified" and I don't care how you feel.

I rest my case that the Den is full of self-important assholes.

I rest my case that you are incapable of differentiating between one single person and the multi person group of The Den.

[Zinegata]

Dragonchild's post.

I never said that most do. All I said is that some massive, insane conservative RPG websites exist ("The big bang is a liberal conspiracy"), and so someone who had visted more of them than liberal ones may very well come with that perception. I honestly don't know one way or the other.

First of all DragonChild, I have no beef with you. Your previous attempt to try and get people to lessen asshole behavior was commendable.

Nobody however, had posted a contrary opinion to the claim that gaming websites lean to the right. You posted instances which support that claim, which I pointed out seemed rather overly specific to individuals as opposed to the site itself.

Therefore, it's perfectly within reason to believe that the people within the conversation are willing to let that belief past, and thus accept it to be true. And there are seriously only five guys really talking here (Me, Prak, Carthaz, ViTM and Kaelik).

And Mr. Crusader Against Non-Factually Supported Claims (Kaelik) was awfully silent about it until he got dragged into it.

For someone who's being extremely nitpicky about how people portray your words, you're quick to jump the gun when it comes to portraying others.

Why should I? Again, the Den operates on the law of the jungle. I might as well twist other people's words to my own ends because that's what people fucking do here.

Carthaz did it first with his BS nitpick. Kaelik focused on the nitpick too. So I might as well just snipe at their statements, put them out of context, and portray Carthaz as a Hitler-fan, and Kaelik as an asshole who only rails against "untruths" only when it suits him. The latter's easy because it's pretty much true.

[Zinegata]

I rest my case that you are incapable of differentiating between one single person and the multi person group of The Den.

I rest my case that you nitpick and only rail against stuff when it suits you.