Karmic Strike & Special Attacks

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Psifon
1st Level
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Karmic Strike & Special Attacks

Post by Psifon »

I have notices some significant problems with the interactions between Karmic Strike and the various Special Attacks. These principally arise out of the fact that most of special attacks provoke AoO’s when attempted. Of course the right feat will prevent the AoO, but under normal circumstances, these maneuvers can create logically bizarre situations when the attacker has Karmic Strike active. This of course becomes especially true the attacker also has Combat Reflexes. When the defender ALSO has Combat Reflexes, then things get even more out of hand.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss these interactions, and to find rules-consistent resolutions to the problems they create. As such, I will delineate each in turn and present possible solutions to the problems generated.

In all the cases below, I am assuming that the attacker has both activated Karmic Strike and has the Combat Reflexes feat. I will delineate the basic interaction when the defender has only one AoO at first. Then I will go on to describe what happens when the defender also has Combat Reflexes. I am assuming that all attacks hit for the purpose of these descriptions. Note that in all cases, the AoO’s provoked by the special attack, and the AoO’s allowed by Karmic Strike are resolved BEFORE the special attack is resolved. This is a key point in many of the interactions. In addition, some special attacks are disrupted if the AoO hits. Some are not. This is reflected in the description.

Bull Rush: Bull Rush is not disrupted if the AoO hits. The basic interaction works like this: The attacker moves into the defender’s space. This provokes an AoO. He then gets to make an AoO himself. If he chooses to use this as ANOTHER bull rush, then he, while in the defender’s space, uses his attack action to make an opposed Strength check. Having succeeded, he then pushes the defender back 5’ or more. Note that he is doing this with his AoO. If he wishes to he can stay in the defender’s space, and move with him. At the end of the Bull Rush, he makes his INITIAL bull rush attempt. He now makes a SECOND opposed Strength check, and may push the defender back again, assuming he has any movement left, he can continue to stay with the defender for this as well.

If the defender has Combat Reflexes: Note that because the attacker is already in the defender’s space at the start of both the Primary and the AoO Bull Rush, no further AoO’s are provoked by the attacker. As such, the defender may only make one AoO against the attacker in this maneuver.

Problem: If the attacker uses all his movement in the AoO Bull Rush, he will have no movement left to conduct his primary Bull Rush. This is really not a big issue however, it just means that the attacker can push the defender out of his space, 5 more feet.


Disarm Disarm attempts are disrupted by a Successful AoO. In the case of disarm, the attacker provokes and AoO. If this hits, he is disrupted, however this in turn activates Karmic Strike, allowing for another attack by the attacker. If he uses this to disarm, he can attempt to gets another attempt to get past the AoO. Note that this does nothing for the opposed roll to see if the disarm succeeds.

If the defender has Combat Reflexes: The attacker can rinse and repeat with this as long as both parties have AoO’s to burn, or until the attacker runs out of HP.

Problem: The attacker can spend his last iterative attack to attempt a disarm. This then results in him getting an AoO at his full BAB that he can use to damage his opponent. This leads to the weird situation where the attacker can actually hope to get hit, because then he gets a free attack at full BAB, while if he succeeds, then he has to try to disarm using his worst attack for the round.

Grapple Grapple attempts are disrupted by a Successful AoO. This basically works the same way as Disarm does.

Overrun Overrun attempts are not disrupted by a Successful AoO. The attacker starts the overrun and the defender gets an AoO. The attacker then gets his Karmic Strike AoO. The defender may attempt to avoid or block, and the attack is resolved normally. Since the rules specify that you can only overrun once per turn the Karmic Strike AoO cannot be used to overrun the defender a second time. Problems only arise if the attacker uses his Karmic AoO to do a different Special Attack.

Sunder Sunder attempts are not disrupted by a Successful AoO. This is resolved thusly:
The attacker attempts a sunder
The defender makes an AoO, hitting, and provoking an AoO from the attacker.
The attacker makes a SECOND sunder attempt using this AoO. This hits, and the attacker completes this (second) sunder.
If the weapon is still intact, the attacker completes the initial sunder.

If the defender has Combat Reflexes: The attacker can rinse and repeat with this as long as both parties have AoO’s to burn, or until the attacker runs out of HP. However, NONE of the sunder attempts are resolved until the LAST AoO by the defender is completed. This is because all AoO’s provoked by sunder attempts are resolved before the sunder attempts, including the sunder attempt that started the whole thing. In effect:

The attacker attempts a sunder
The defender makes an AoO, hitting, and provoking an AoO from the attacker.
The attacker makes a SECOND sunder attempt using this AoO.
The defender makes an AoO, hitting, and provoking an AoO from the attacker.
The attacker makes a THIRD sunder attempt using THIS AoO.
The defender makes an AoO, hitting, and provoking an AoO from the attacker.
The attacker makes a FOURTH sunder attempt using THIS AoO.
This hits, and the attacker completes this (fourth) sunder attempt.
If the weapon is still intact, the attacker completes the third sunder attempt.
If the weapon is still intact, the attacker completes the second sunder attempt.
If the weapon is still intact, the attacker completes the first sunder attempt.

Problem: First off there is a problem with logical consistency here. If the final sunder attempt successfully destroys the weapon, then all prior sunder attempts become moot. This is a logical paradox akin to going back in time and killing your own great great grandfather. There is no reason to attempt ANY of the sunder attempts if the first one succeeds. If the last one succeeds, then there was no reason to conduct the attempts that happened BEFORE the last attempt was made. And if those prior attempts were never made, then why did the attacker go through all those AoO’s in the first place?

Trip Trip attempts are not disrupted by a Successful AoO. This is resolved thusly:
The attacker attempts a trip attack.
The defender makes an AoO, hitting, and provoking an AoO from the attacker.
The attacker makes a SECOND trip attack using this AoO. If this hits, the combatants make an opposed check.
Now here is where things get weird. If the attacker successfully trips the defender, he had no reason to make the initial trip in the first place (the target is already prone). If the defender trips the attacker, then the attacker can now make with the initial trip attempt, but he now suffers a RETROACTIVE –4 to hit on that attack. Note that this penalty doesn’t apply to the SECOND trip attack, only the FIRST! If neither of them are tripped, the attacker can now make his initial trip attack. If it hits, he can make the opposed check.

If the defender has Combat Reflexes: The attacker can rinse and repeat with this as long as both parties have AoO’s to burn, or until the attacker runs out of HP. However, NONE of the opposed checks are resolved until the LAST AoO by the defender is completed. This is because all AoO’s provoked by trip attacks are resolved before the trip attacks, including the trip attack started the whole thing. In effect:

The attacker attempts a trip attack
The defender makes an AoO, hitting, and provoking an AoO from the attacker.
The attacker makes a SECOND trip attack using this AoO.
The defender makes an AoO, hitting, and provoking an AoO from the attacker.
The attacker makes a THIRD trip attack using THIS AoO.
The defender makes an AoO, hitting, and provoking an AoO from the attacker.
The attacker makes a FOURTH trip attack using THIS AoO.
This hits, and the combatants complete their (fourth) opposed roll.
Regardless of the outcome of this roll, they then complete the third opposed roll.
Regardless of the outcome of this roll, they then complete the second opposed roll.
Regardless of the outcome of this roll, they then complete the first opposed roll.

Problem: If at any point in the opposed rolls EITHER opponent is tripped, a –4 penalty is applied retroactively to all subsequent rolls, which could in effect NEGATE the very existence of the opposed check that caused the defender to be tripped, and which caused the attackers Karmic Strike to be activated in the first place!

GAHHH!


OK so far I have discussed the glitches in the system. So now I want to propose a house rule to fix these glitches.

Add the following line of text to Karmic Strike:

“If a character with an activated Karmic Strike feat attempts a Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, or Trip attack, that attack is completely resolved before any attacks of opportunity that the character may be entitled to as a consequence of the attack.”

So what do you think? Will this plug the hole?
Username17
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Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Karmic Strike & Special Attacks

Post by Username17 »

Problem: If the attacker uses all his movement in the AoO Bull Rush, he will have no movement left to conduct his primary Bull Rush. This is really not a big issue however, it just means that the attacker can push the defender out of his space, 5 more feet.


He can't even do that... Bullrush lets you move them five feet farther than you move - so they are already out of your square when the first bullrush resolves. If you don't have any movement left, you can't make a bullrush - and it's a DM's call as to what happens to your initial attack.

First off there is a problem with logical consistency here. If the final sunder attempt successfully destroys the weapon, then all prior sunder attempts become moot. This is a logical paradox akin to going back in time and killing your own great great grandfather.


Same as the Bullrush above.

If at any point in the opposed rolls EITHER opponent is tripped, a –4 penalty is applied retroactively to all subsequent rolls, which could in effect NEGATE the very existence of the opposed check that caused the defender to be tripped, and which caused the attackers Karmic Strike to be activated in the first place!


Not at all. Being Prone doesn't make you immune to trip attacks at all. Being Prone is a condition, and like any other thing which gives you a condition, can be stacked as desired.

In fact, if you do your multiple tripping iteration thing - you can gain a bonus attack from Improved Trip for every single Trip that succeeds. That can get really big.

So what do you think? Will this plug the hole?


No.

What you really want is for the Karmic Strike attack to grant a bonus attack at the end of the entire current stack - thus starting a new stack after everything has been resolved. Unfortunately, 3.5 D&D rules don't actually have a name for their effect stack as regards attacks of opportunity. So you'd have to create a name for them, and then have the Karmic Strike give you the attack at the end - to be declared after all the current frimframmery has been resolved.

Of course, this doesn't actually stop the silliness. If two people have the right collection of feats, you can actually be in a situation where characters are willing to simply take attacks that normally provoke attacks of opportunity against their opponent with all of their attacks of opportunity that they get from their opponent taking attacks that provoke attacks of opportunity with the attacks that they got from the attacks of opportunity which were triggered.

As long as your opponent is himself trying to bullrush you back and you both have Combat Reflexes, it's all pretty silly.

-Username17
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