Can Dwarves tumble in heavy armor?

[I_mongo]

Can Dwarves tumble in heavy armor?

Last session, the dwarven fighter tried to tumble while wearing full plate. I, the DM, said “hell no.” The player then said that he could tumble as long as his speed wasn’t reduced for wearing armor or being encumbered. We checked the PH and he was right.

Now granted, this isn’t one of the infinite rules loop hole that makes your character a god, but still. A dwarf in full plate tumbling is just wrong. Is there errata on this anywhere?

mongo

[Oberoni]

If a guy can wear really heavy armor without being slowed down at all, I don't see why it's a stretch to assume he can tumble in it, too.

I'm checking out the Tumble rules on page 85, and I don't see anything to stop the Dwarf from tumblin' in full plate. I mighta missed something, though.

[Username17]

In 3e, no. In 3.5 yes. That's supposed to be a "feature", not a "bug".

Personally, I find the whole concept of "not being able to tumble while wearing XXX" to be completely retarded. That's what armor check penalties are for! As things currently stand, you are better off trying to stop someone from tumbling by dressing them up in a hide suit (which is armor that slows them down and therefore makes tumbling impossible) than you are in tying their arms to their feet behind their back *which slows them down considerably, but is not armor and therefore only provides a substantial penalty).

Dumb!

The way it should work is that people who wear armor are at penalties to perform tumble actions. No more, no less. Non-numerical automatic success/failure is a legacy mechanic and virtually always leads to stupid.

-Username17

[Zherog]

I agree with Oberoni and Frank - fully intended by the rules in 3.5. Just be sure to apply that armor check penalty for his full plate.

[Thoth_Amon]

Agreed. I had a tumbler Dwarf Rogue as a cohort briefly.

Not blaspheme.

TA

[Josh_Kablack]

Frank is wrong.

It's actually even stupider than he thinks.

As written, *anyone* can totally Tumble in full plate, but *if and only if* they've had other effects already reduce their speed down to the minimum 5'.

By the book, being stuck in a Transmute Rock to Mud effect totally lets you tumble in full plate.

[Username17]

But Josh is wrong! It's in fact more stupid!

---

But seriously, that's arguable, since it is not clear which order you apply your speed reductions. It's entirely possible that if you are wearing fullplate and are in solid fog you have your speed reduced to 20 by the fullplate and subsequently have your speed reduced to 5 by the fog.

What order speed bonuses/penalties are applied in is absolutely anyone's guess.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

1110526574[/unixtime]]But Josh is wrong! It's in fact more stupid!

You're right about that

[RandomCasualty]

1110513891[/unixtime]]
The way it should work is that people who wear armor are at penalties to perform tumble actions. No more, no less. Non-numerical automatic success/failure is a legacy mechanic and virtually always leads to stupid.

Well I think its needed, otherwise everyone would take tumble. Right now the only thing that prevents a tumbler from existing is the fact that they wear heavy armor. If you let anyone do it, then reach would become basically useless.

Though I suppose you could change the DC around... but then the 3E skill system sucks so bad people would just buy +20 tumble items and get around whatever high DC you made.

Until the skill system is fixed, I don't think we can use numerical methods very well.

[User3]

Tumbling is cool, and being a pimp tumbler is cooler. Remember the hot chick form of Ghozer the Ghozarian in the Ghostbusters? I'm all for magic items that make you a tumbling fool.

However, at some point your game looks more like Battletech with Death from Above and less like fantasy heroic fiction.

[RandomCasualty]

Yeah, as cool as tumbling might be, you need nontumblers too. And if that means everyone in heavy armor, then I'm alright with it.

[Oberoni]

1110555962[/unixtime]]

Well I think its needed, otherwise everyone would take tumble. Right now the only thing that prevents a tumbler from existing is the fact that they wear heavy armor.

What the fug?

You and I playing different games?

Tumblers in the games I see are a minority. Basically, if tumble isn't a class skill, it's really hard to pump it up to where it needs to go.

A distinct minority of the characters in the games in which I've played have been tumblers.

If you allow custom magic items to give you +whatever to your Tumble check, yeah, I could maybe see an issue...but it's not a big one, and it's certainly not worse than the loads of other crap that custom magic items can do.

[User3]

I'd really like to see Tumbling as it is now re-imagined some. Intuitively, being able to move around the battlefield without exposing yourself to attack sounds like a skill that fighters should probably have. The "Mobility" feat is really a slap in the face by comparison with having some ranks in Tumble.

But as long as there's just the one "Tumbling" skill, called "Tumbling", it sounds kind of strange for it to be something you can do in heavy armor. Not out of the question -- just strange. Better that it be reconceived as a more general way to serve the same function, and then you can have fighters who get to move around the battlefield because of their expertise in small unit tactics, and rogues who do it because they're just that nimble, and nobody gets an aneurysm over it.

--d.

[RandomCasualty]

1110583319[/unixtime]]
A distinct minority of the characters in the games in which I've played have been tumblers.

Right pretty much because of the armor restriction. if you're forced to wear light armor, you've got to have high dex, otherwise it probably isn't worth it.

If that restriction is gone however, I think you'll see every warrior type taking tumble. Possibly even with a 1 level dip to rogue at 5th-8th level to maximize the skill. And sure, it may not work every time but who cares? You really don't lose anything by trying to tumble and failing.

The thing with tumble is that it devalues reach weapons and the DC isn't scaling. Which means that your reach is worth absolutely shit if everyone has tumble. And that's bad. It's much like what freedom of movement does to grapple checks at high level. Absolute immunities are bad for the game. Somewhere along the line there needs to be a way to get your AoO anyway against a tumbler.

[Oberoni]

No, really, I'm pretty sure it's not armor-related. As in, I've seen people in light (or no) armor not take the skill because cross-class skill spending sucks.

I even stated that in the post you just read.

Blowing skill points on cross-class skills is such a pain, that lots of people don't do it, even on the good ones. Spot, Sense Motive, Listen, Tumble, bluff, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Move Silently, Knowledge: Whatever, Search, Spellcraft, and extra languages are all very good to have in certain situations.

However, you've got some problems. You only have a few skill points, and you really need some skills to make your class work, and you'd rather get lots of skill ranks than less.

So you have to make choices. You can't have every skill you want, especially if it's cross-class.

And that's where Tumble lies. It has pretty much nothing to do with that stupid full plate restriction.

[RandomCasualty]

IF you're a fighter, do you seriously have anything better to get? I mean really I'd take tumble for every single melee character I ever made. It's that awesome. Even if you don't have enough ranks to make it work every time, seriously who cares? Failing doesn't hurt you. So you may miss an AoO 50% of the time. That's still realyl good.

As for people who can take it not take it, that's likely because they're not totally familiar with how good it is, especialyl at high levels. When you're fighting in high level, almost every creature you'll ever fight will have reach. At low levels maybe it's optional, but at high levels, it's pretty much a must take for any melee based character.

I can't even begin to count the number of AoOs stopped by tumble in an average high level combat session. Leave those other skills to the party rogue and wizard. If you're a fighter type, you want tumble if you can use it. It could very well save your life and is a way to spent those 2 points you get every level for a good purpose.

[Oberoni]

1110589808[/unixtime]]IF you're a fighter, do you seriously have anything better to get?

You might be talking about the Fighter class. Its skill list is so laughably horrid that yes, you might as well take Tumble. Or any of the other dozen or so good skills. Tumble, though, sure. Why not?

You might be talking about melee characters in general. If so, great. Yes, most melee characters (as opposed to "most characters") should think about Tumble...just like most spellcasters should think about Concentration, and most...everybody should think about Spot.

So, I'm not sure how you're proving that the stupid heavy armor restriction is the only thing stopping everyone from taking Tumble.

[RandomCasualty]

1110592343[/unixtime]]
So, I'm not sure how you're proving that the stupid heavy armor restriction is the only thing stopping everyone from taking Tumble.

I'm pretty much just talking about melee characters. After all, who really cares if casters have it since they don't close for melee anyway. The only tumble makes a difference is if you're a meleer.

And heck without the restriction every meleer is going to have it, and generally leave guys with reach feeling like shit since they never get AoOs and there's no way to nullify tumble.

[Oberoni]

It's. Still. Cross. Class.

Bards, Monks, and Rogues are the only classes that can Tumble as a class skill.

You realize that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, right? The situation where we remove that stupid restriction is not tremendously different from the current situation.

Your games of Tumbletopia will exist, with or without that heavy armor restriction, in your paradigm.

[User3]

Mod Edit: Personal attack removed.

[grey_muse]

Bah. I agree with most of what RC says, most of the time.

I do disagree in this case, though. I don't see a lot of fighters maxing tumble. What I see a lot of -- what I do a lot of, with melee characters -- is dump the two cross-class points to get a rank of tumble.

That means roughly a third of the time, depending on my dex, I make my tumble check and don't provoke AoO's in combat. Which seems like a pretty good investment and some slight cheese, though nothing on the order of the druid, for example. And I don't really see people avoiding heavy armor for this perk, either.

[RandomCasualty]

1110602718[/unixtime]]
You realize that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, right? The situation where we remove that stupid restriction is not tremendously different from the current situation.

Your games of Tumbletopia will exist, with or without that heavy armor restriction, in your paradigm.

Well, it is still significant enough to prevent a select few from taking tumble and overall fairly good for the game, because it creates a counter system of sorts.

Reach > Heavy armor > light armor > reach.

It's actually good to have situations where people have to make choices like that. Either you have better AC as a heavy armor fighter or you are a tumbler and yet have worse AC. Trade offs like that are good for the game.

There's a certain point where the game reaches this odd "have your cake and eat it too" phase, where people wnat everything. People with two handed weapons want shield bonuses and they make the animated shield, people with heavy armor want to be able to tumble, druids want shields and armor that follows them into wildshape. Many balance problems come from not having tradeoffs.

If there's one thing the game needs its more stuff like the tumble restriction IMO. We need rules saying that if you're a two handed weapon wielder you don't get a shield. We need more rules that actually create consequences for various styles, and real consequences you can't just buy away by getting a magical item. I don't have problems with having people in heavy armor be clumsy and have poor manueverability. I don't have problems with people using two handed weapons not getting shield bonuses. At some point we have to put our foot down and try to create some kind of restrictions based on fighting style.

And besides, who actually wants people doing acrobatics in full plate anyway? It is rather silly IMO.

[Josh_Kablack]

1110606896[/unixtime]]
And besides, who actually wants people doing acrobatics in full plate anyway? It is rather silly IMO.

Not as silly as being able to Tumble with your wrists and ankles all manacled together

Not as silly as being able to Tumble when caught in a net.

And both of those just impose penalties.

Seriously, what's the fucking problem with just having Tumble take an armor tjeck penalty? Or even a Swim-like doubled armor tjeck penalty?

Your arguments about reach totally make no sense at all. You do not take a reach weapon as a counter to heavy armor. You take a reach weapon because it saves you movement and increases your charge range, it negates some enemy AoOs, gives you more squares to attack (or cleave) into, and then because it might get you an AoO if your opponents are stupid. 5' reach opponents can totally avoid reach AoOs from your 10' reach if they just wait for you to come to them and then 5' step in, or if they advance under cover (like a Tower Shield), or if one of their buddies provokes first.

[Lago_AM3P]

If Darth Vader, Solidus Snake, and Cyborg (both comic and cartoon) can do hardcore tumbling manuevers despite being weighed down by all that ninja gear, then there is no damn reason why heavy armor alone should stop you from jumping around like a ferret on crystal meth.

[RandomCasualty]

1110610455[/unixtime]]
Your arguments about reach totally make no sense at all. You do not take a reach weapon as a counter to heavy armor. You take a reach weapon because it saves you movement and increases your charge range, it negates some enemy AoOs, gives you more squares to attack (or cleave) into, and then because it might get you an AoO if your opponents are stupid. 5' reach opponents can totally avoid reach AoOs from your 10' reach if they just wait for you to come to them and then 5' step in, or if they advance under cover (like a Tower Shield), or if one of their buddies provokes first.

Odd, see I've always taken a reach weapon when I want to get more AoOs, or at the very least to negate the reach of an opponent.

Reach is a pretty big advantage, because it guarantees you first strike. If you've got a 10' reach, sure they can wait for you to approach and charge them, then move 5' into you, but still you're getting th first strike. And while tower shields are nice, they do also grant -2 to attack rolls and prevent you from using a two handed weapon. And generally if you're a strength based fighter, the kind that would wear heavy armor, you want to use a two hander.

I'm not sure what doesn't make sense about calling a reach character a character based on AoOs. That is after all why almost all reach characters have combat reflexes. The benefits of reach are either to avoid reach AoOs yourself or to provoke them from things with less reach. The AoOs also provide battlefield control as in the case of the enlarged spiked chain wielder.

If Darth Vader, Solidus Snake, and Cyborg (both comic and cartoon) can do hardcore tumbling manuevers despite being weighed down by all that ninja gear, then there is no damn reason why heavy armor alone should stop you from jumping around like a ferret on crystal meth.

Game balance is a good reason. That's the same thinking the designers made when they created the animates shield, and allowed clerics to fight better than fighters.

At some point, fighting styles need a give and take. And there needs to be some absolutes. Otherwise you've got swashbucklers running around in full plate, greatsword barbarians getting shield bonuses and spellcasters outfighting straight fighters.

Remember that every boost to tumble is a nerf to reach weapons. So you just have to ask if reach needs to be nerfed. I really don't think it does personally.