Check my math

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Tae_Kwon_Dan
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Check my math

Post by Tae_Kwon_Dan »

Okay on this thread:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.p ... ][br]We're discussing the 3.5 take on Keen + Improved Critical which was a change I didn't agree with. My contention is that once you fixed Vorpal, and potentially Burst weapons, to only work on the base crit range the balance between crit range and damage die allows these abilities to stack without creating a balance issue.

I was then, respectfully, asked to compare a Falchion and Scimitar so here is what I plan on posting. I've shown my work in the first AC comparison, but not the others. The other comparisons were done in the exact same way so if the math is wrong in the first one it's wrong in the others.

Originally posted by q'afuu
Try a falchion instead of a scimitar. That's a much more fair comparison to a greatsword.

Regardless, it's difficult to make a good comparison. 2d4+1.5*Str+enhancements isn't that much less than 2d6+1.5*Str+enhancements, even if you can take an enhancement that helps with damage directly instead of keen. OTOH, crits deal so much more damage than normal hits that critting twice as often or more can make a huge difference. And then there's the consideration of opponents that are immune to crits. Etc. You can't put exact numbers on everything.


Ah but I can, because this is a mathematical game and average numbers come close enough to giving us a good idea. Not to mention the immunity issue doesn't matter in this comparison, because it affects both items equally. They both are slashing weapons so DR doesn't come into play in this comparison either.

So let's compare the two with all things being equal assuming 14 STR and we just got Improved Crit as a Fighter so our BAB is +8/+3. The only other feats or abilities that affects attacks or damage are Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.

We'll attack opponents with AC's of 10, 15, 20, and 25

+1 Keen Falchion:
Threat Range: 12-20 (45% of all rolls are potential threats)
To hit rolls: +10/+5
Damage: 2d4 + 6
Critical Damage: 4d4 +12
Average Damage: 11
Average Crit Damage: 22

+1 Keen Greatsword
Threat Range: 15-20 (30% of all rolls are potential threats)
To hit rolls: +10/+5
Damage: 2d6 +6
Critical Damage: 4d6 +12
Average Damage: 13
Average Crit Damage: 26

So the question becomes is that extra 15% chance worth more than 2 points of damage?

Vs. AC of 10
Attack 1 (applies to both): 95% chance to hit (2-20)
Crit% Falchion: 42.75% (.45 * .95)
Crit% Greatsword: 28.5% (.3 *.95)
Attack 2 (applies to both): 80% chance to hit (5-20)
Crit% Falchion: 36%
Crit% Greatsword: 24%
Average Falchion Damage in a round: 27.9125
[(.95-.4275)*11 + (.4275)*22 + (.8-.36)*11 + (.36)*22]
Average Greatsword Damage in a round: 29.565
[(.95-.284)*13 + (.284)*26 + (.8-.24)*13 + (.24)*26]

Vs. AC of 15
Attack 1 (applies to both): 80% chance to hit (5-20)
Crit% Falchion: 36%
Crit% Greatsword: 24%
Attack 2 (applies to both): 55% chance to hit (10-20)
Crit% Falchion: 24.75%
Crit% Greatsword: 16.5%
Average Falchion Damage in a round: 21.5325
Average Greatsword Damage in a round: 22.822

Vs. AC of 20
Attack 1 (applies to both): 55% chance to hit (10-20)
Crit% Falchion: 24.75%
Crit% Greatsword: 16.5%
Attack 2 (applies to both): 30% chance to hit (15-20)
Crit% Falchion: 9% (Falchion drops to 30% crit on attack, because 12, 13, and 14 are misses)
Crit% Greatsword: 9%
Average Falchion Damage in a round: 13.0625
Average Greatsword Damage in a round: 14.365

Vs. AC of 25
Attack 1 (applies to both): 30% chance to hit (15-20)
Crit% Falchion: 9% (Falchion drops to 30% crit on attack, because 12, 13, and 14 are misses)
Crit% Greatsword: 9%
Attack 2 (applies to both): 5% chance to hit (20)
Crit% Falchion: 0.25% (.5*.5)
Crit% Greatsword: 0.25%
Average Falchion Damage in a round: 4.8675
Average Greatsword Damage in a round: 5.7525
Tae_Kwon_Dan
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Re: Check my math

Post by Tae_Kwon_Dan »

It's already been pointed out at Nifty that I messed up the to hit roll so I have to go back and fix that. I'll update the numbers as soon as I redo my calculations.
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Re: Check my math

Post by Tae_Kwon_Dan »

Here are the redone numbers:

+1 Keen Falchion:
Threat Range: 12-20 (45% of all rolls are potential threats)
To hit rolls: +12/+7
Damage: 2d4 + 6
Critical Damage: 4d4 +12
Average Damage: 11
Average Crit Damage: 22

+1 Keen Greatsword
Threat Range: 15-20 (30% of all rolls are potential threats)
To hit rolls: +12/+7
Damage: 2d6 +6
Critical Damage: 4d6 +12
Average Damage: 13
Average Crit Damage: 26

So the question becomes is that extra 15% chance worth more than 2 points of damage?

Vs. AC of 10
Attack 1 (applies to both): 95% chance to hit (2-20)
Crit% Falchion: 42.75% (.45 * .95)
Crit% Greatsword: 28.5% (.3 *.95)
Attack 2 (applies to both): 90% chance to hit (3-20)
Crit% Falchion: 40.5%
Crit% Greatsword: 27%
Average Falchion Damage in a round: 29.5075
[(.95-.4275)*11 + (.4275)*22 + (.9-.405)*11 + (.405)*22]
Average Greatsword Damage in a round: 31.225
[(.95-.284)*13 + (.284)*26 + (.9-.27)*13 + (.27)*26]

Vs. AC of 15
Attack 1 (applies to both): 90% chance to hit (3-20)
Crit% Falchion: 40.5%
Crit% Greatsword: 27%
Attack 2 (applies to both): 65% chance to hit (8-20)
Crit% Falchion: 29.25%
Crit% Greatsword: 19.5%
Average Falchion Damage in a round: 24.7225
Average Greatsword Damage in a round: 26.195

Vs. AC of 20
Attack 1 (applies to both): 65% chance to hit (8-20)
Crit% Falchion: 29.25%
Crit% Greatsword: 19.5%
Attack 2 (applies to both): 40% chance to hit (13-20)
Crit% Falchion: 16% (Falchion drops to 40% crit on attack, because 12 is a miss)
Crit% Greatsword: 12%
Average Falchion Damage in a round: 16.5275
Average Greatsword Damage in a round: 17.745

Vs. AC of 25
Attack 1 (applies to both): 40% chance to hit (13-20)
Crit% Falchion: 16% (Falchion drops to 40% crit on attack, because 12 is a miss)
Crit% Greatsword: 12%
Attack 2 (applies to both): 15% chance to hit (18-20)
Crit% Falchion: 2.25%
Crit% Greatsword: 2.25% (Both drop to 15% crit chance)
Average Falchion Damage in a round: 8.0575
Average Greatsword Damage in a round: 9.0025
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Re: Check my math

Post by Username17 »

Whoa goodness that's complicated.

Your first problem is that you are comparing at specific ACs - which is pointless. The entire point of the D&D critical system is that it is AC independent.

After all, your chances of scoring a critical on any given hit is equal to:

Chance of scoring a threat on your hit {(Number of numbers you threaten on) / (Number of numbers you hit on)} * your chance of confirming that threat (Number of numbers you hit on) / the number of numbers on a d20 (20).

What do we notice? We notice that the number of numbers you hit on is removable from the equation. Your chance to score a critical is simply 5% times the number of numbers you score a threat on per hit.

So when you add Keen or Improved Critical, you add a 15% chance of inflicting double damage every hit. That means that either ability adds a flat amount of average damage on every hit equal to 15% of your average damage (not including criticals).

When you add Keen and Improved Critical, you add a 30% chance of inflicting double damage very hit. That means that both abilities add a flat amount of average damage equal to 15% of your average damage (not including criticals).

If either were independently fair to begin with, they are both definitionally fair when added together.

Now, you can make a very good case that the Scimitar is not balanced in the first place - as it does 1 less point of damage than the Long Sword and does 5% extra damage per hit on the top - meaning that at high levels (where 5% of your average damage is more than 1) the Scimitar is always going to be strictly more powerful than is the longsword - while at low levels (where 5% of your average damage is decidedly less than 1 point) the Longsword is always going to be better than the Scimitar.

However, if you take as given that the Keen Edge ability was balanced, and you also take as given that the Improved Critical ability was balanced, and you also take as given that the Scimitar was balanced - it follows naturally that combining them all together is likewise balanced - as the combination is a strictly linear progression of effectiveness which at no point deviates from the established norms of the parts taken individually.

You might as well claim that it is unbalanced to add Morale Bonuses to Insight Bonuses.

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Re: Check my math

Post by Username17 »

Note: If it was for some reason extremely important to you to prove that Improved Critical in regards to the Scimitar was unbalanced, you could look at it like this:

* The Basic Scimitar is 1.1 points of damage behind the Longsword in average damage per hit. It is 5% ahead in critical bonus - so it pays off if the total average damage on the Scimitar after bonuses is 22 or more.

* The Keen or Improved Critical Scimitar is 1.2 points of damage behind the Keen or Improved Critical Longsword in average damage per hit. It is 10% ahead in critical bonus - so it pays off if the total average damage on the Scimitar after bonuses is 12 or more.

* The Keen and Improved Scimitar is 1.3 points of damage behind the Keen and Improved Scimitar Longsword in average damage per hit. It is 15% ahead in critical bonus - so it pays off if the total average damage on the Scimitar after bonuses is 9 or more.

Now - the game is still unbalanced in that regard no matter what you do. Those damage bonuses keep accumulating, and once you are past the break point the weapon utility shifts. But if you weren't thinking about it in the big picture you might think that shifting that fulcrum might somehow be important.

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Re: Check my math

Post by Joy_Division »

Of course if you're playing 3.5 they changed the entry for the weapon criticals in the SRD


SRD wrote: Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.


Emphasis mine. If you check 3.0 they're more specific here.
While I don't have the 3.5 book myself , unless they just decided to be more vague here and define exactly what they mean by normal damage somewhere else. I don't think str and enhancement bonuses are even multiplied by critical damage.
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Re: Check my math

Post by Tae_Kwon_Dan »

Somewhere normal damage is defined as the weapons damage die + static modifiers (e.g. STR, WS, GWS, etc.). It still works the same as 3.0.

Frank, I don't think the scimitar is super unbalanced and really hate the new rules. I see what you're saying in comparison to the longsword though (interesting to note that the falchion vs. the greatsword doesn't have this problem, or it's smaller at least.) At any rate, I think either way shows that letting Keen and Improved Crit stack isn't inherently unbalanced unless your a whiny game designer that though criticals should be more "special."
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Re: Check my math

Post by Thoth_Amon »


SRD wrote:Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.


STR and enhancements do apply. Extra dice of damage (Elemental, Sneak, Holy, Bane, etc) do not multiply.

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Re: Check my math

Post by Maj »

Frank wrote:However, if you take as given that the Keen Edge ability was balanced, and you also take as given that the Improved Critical ability was balanced, and you also take as given that the Scimitar was balanced - it follows naturally that combining them all together is likewise balanced


This is a logic fallacy, Frank. It absolutely does not follow naturally at all.

Green olives, baklava, par larm, and pineapple might all taste good, but they don't all taste good together. Qualities of individual things do not necessarily apply to the whole (fallacy of composition). Likewise, cookies taste great, but flour, butter, vanilla, and raw eggs don't taste good individually. The parts of a whole don't necessarily share a quality that the whole does (fallacy of division).

Your conclusion may be correct, but I will not accept it without other affirmation when it's based on bad logic.
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Re: Check my math

Post by Username17 »

This is a logic fallacy, Frank. It absolutely does not follow naturally at all.


What the hell are you talking about?

Seriously, you quoted the conclusion, and said that the conclusion of the conclusion was based on insufficient logic within the conclusion. Well sorry, but that's only to be expected - since all of the supporting evidence was in the math that you chose to ignore.

The math is - Improved Critical doesn't add any more or less when it is being added to a weapon which has a Keen Edge than when it adds to a weapon that does not. Compare and contrast with such old-time favorites as Weapon Specialization - which actually does provide a greater bonus to a Keen Weapon than it does to a non-Keen Weapon.

Improved Critical adds a static amount of damage regardles of whether the weapon is Keen or not. If we were at all concerned about feats stacking with Keen Edge, the obvious target for nerfing is Weapon Specialization, not Improved Critical. However, since nothing of the sort has been done, the game balance concerns regarding Keen Edge are - at best - under researched.

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Re: Check my math

Post by Maj »

Frank, I don't care whether you're conclusion is right or wrong. I care about you trying to justify [to me] a property of game balance when it's based on faulty logic.

I read your math. It says

15 or 15 is balanced

15 and 15 is 30

Therefore 30 is balanced

Yes, you can add, and yes, you did so correctly, but it doesn't mean - in any way, shape, or form - that adding two numbers is therefore balanced.

In the post following the one I quoted, you went on to say that the stacking of keen and improved crit isn't balanced because a +6 Keen and Improved Scimitar is better than a +6 Keen and Improved Longsword. You then used something to this effect to demonstrate that Weapon Specialization is unbalanced because it is more effective when put on a scimitar than a longsword.

And that's crap.

The fault is with the weapons themselves, since that is the only difference between the two scenarios.

Whether or not Improved Crit and Keen are balanced when put together isn't addressed by your math at all. The imbalance of the weapons is. And generally speaking, people don't all want to wield the same kind of weapon, so imbalance is something people actually request.

The balance of Improved Crit and Keen together is determined by the campaign and how often critting actually happens. If you don't see crits, no amount of math is going to be able to convince me that I should be wielding a Keen and Improved scimitar. If all I see are crits, why bother with a longsword?
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Re: Check my math

Post by Username17 »

Wrong.

"+15" is balanced. Whether or not you have another "+15", the first "+15" is exactly the same size,

So if it was balanced for you to gain the extra 15% damage by taking the Improved Critical feat - it's still exactly the same amount balanced if you have a keen weapon - because the bonus provided by the feat has not changed.

Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, all of those feats provide a variable bonus depending upon whether your weapon is Keen or not. But Improved Critical does not!

It stands unique among all combat feats in the entire game as being the only feat which provides a direct bonus to damage that doesn't get remultiplied by Keen Edge. It's the only single feat which can be actually examined in its effect independently of whether your weapon is Keen or not.

OTOH, if you make it not stack - the bonus is still static unless the weapon is Keen - in which case the weapon is zero. That's unbalanced, because the bonus is different depending upon which weapon is used.

If the bonus is static, and completely unchanged when you change another variable (and the other variable is itself unchanged by the presence or absence of the bonu) - then it can be considered balanced or unbalanced independently of whether the other variable is on or off.

It's like the taste of chili in San Jose and the rainfall in Zimbabwe - they are both important, but have no direct effect on each other. Only more so, because Zimbabwe exists within the same world as San Jose and changes in rainfall there will eventually cause changes in rainfall in the Central Valley and alter slightly the taste of beans. But this is a game - a mathematical ideal - where no apparent effects actually translate into no effects at all.

There is literally nothing, at all, that happens to Improved Critical when the weapon is or is not Keen - the two are completely independent variables that have no connection at all. To claim that it is even vaguely possible that one could make the other unbalanced is insanity.

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Re: Check my math

Post by Thoth_Amon »


Frank wrote:It stands unique among all combat feats in the entire game as being the only feat which provides a direct bonus to damage that doesn't get remultiplied by Keen Edge. It's the only single feat which can be actually examined in its effect independently of whether your weapon is Keen or not.


I assume you mean Core. I think Dirty Fighting adds a direct bonus to damage that does not multiply as it is an extra die of damage.

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Re: Check my math

Post by Username17 »

Well yes - but Dirty Fighting sucks so much that it hardly counts (indeed, it actually reduces expected damage for most characters).

Improved Critical gains from a Keen Weapon in exactly the same way that Sneak Attack dice do - not at all. So if you think of Sneak Attack or Improved Critical as balanced alone - they are balanced with the addition of Keen Edge as well. After all, nothing has changed, so both abilities are still "alone" for this purpose.

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Re: Check my math

Post by Username17 »

Note also: Flaming Burst suxxors.

In fact, it sucks so badly that even if you let it apply across Keen Edge and Improved Critical together - it still sucks.

The best weapons to get Flaming Burst on are the Scimitar and the Pick. One gets 5.5 extra damage on 15% of its hits, the other gets 16.5 extra damage on 5% of its hits. The expected average damage bonus from flaming burst is thus only 0.825 damage per hit.

Ouch. That's less than the expected average damage bonus from getting another +1 enhancement bonus. And it doesn't come with a bonus to-hit. Note that these energy attacks are supposedly balanced at giving 3.5 extra damage per hit - so Flaming Burst is under par by more than a factor of 4.

So let's assume we got Keen Edge and Improved Critical working for us. Suddenly we now have the Scimitar handing out 5.5 extra damage on 45% of the hits - or the Pick handing out 16.5 extra damage on 15% of the hits. Which works out to an average of 2.475 extra damage per hit - which is under par by more than one whole point of damage.

So we then notice that if we somehow managed to quadruple the weapon's threat range (the Scimitar now bursting on 60% of hits, and the Pick now bursting on 20% of hits) - it would only be handing out 3.3 points of average damage - still one fifth of a point behind that which can be generated by simply upgrading your flaming weapon to shocking, corrosive, holy, or whatever.

So if you could stack Flaming Burst across more critical multipliers than the Core Rules will allow you - it would still suck beyond belief. Worrying about flaming burst is inane - even if criticals were four times more likely than they are for the most threatening weapons in the game - Flaming Burst would still be mathematically inferior.

Heck - no matter how frequently you critical - it's still going to be inferior. You see, that enhancement bonus improves when the weapon criticals more. The enhancement bonus provides a base of +1.15 average damage per hit - and of course that +.05 chance to hit rises in power as the weapon's average damage increases as well.

The flaming burst adds .825 damage per hit, which assuming you were hitting half the time is .4125 damage per attack. The enhancement bonus adds 1.15 damage per hit, and adds a whole number on the d20 where you hit instead of miss - increasing the avaerage damage per attack by .6325 + .05 times the entire expected original average damage. So of course, it starts out massively ahead.

Now when you double the threat range (from Keen or Improved Critical), flaming burst adds an additional .825 damage per hit - another .4125 damage per attack. However, the enhancement bonus gains an additional .15 damage on the enhancement bonus itself - and of course .05 times .15 the critcal modifiable damage on the whole rest of the attack from the extra bonus to hit. Now, which is gaining more from the extra critical modifier is going to vary depending upon how much damage you are handing out (if you are handing out 44 points of damage anyway, the enhancement bonus is climbing faster than the flaming burst is),

But let's go ahead and just assume that you somehow managed to always critical on every hit with the Scimitar. The flaming burst at that point would be offering 5.5 extra damage per hit, for 2.75 damage per attack. The enhancement bonus would be handing out only +2 points of damage per hit, for 1.1 damage per attack, plus 5% of double the original critical multipliable damage. So if you are handing out 16.5 damage per hit - and you always score a critical, you are still better off with the enhancement bonus.

What do you think the odds are that if you have enough critical bonuses that your Falchion always criticals that you can come up with a grand total of a measily +11.5 points of straight damage plusses? I'm thinking like a 100%, round about.

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Re: Check my math

Post by Essence »

Frank wrote:"+15" is balanced. Whether or not you have another "+15", the first "+15" is exactly the same size,

So if it was balanced for you to gain the extra 15% damage by taking the Improved Critical feat - it's still exactly the same amount balanced if you have a keen weapon - because the bonus provided by the feat has not changed.



She's not attacking your conclusion, Frank; she's attacking your logic.

We know that Keen Edge and Improved Crit are balanced independently and balanced when stacked. But we know that from mathematically examining what happens when the four conditions apply (neither, one, the other, both.) NOT from any sort of logic that says "A is balanced, B is balanced, therefore A+B is balanced".

Mind Feeder weapons are balanced when taken entirely on their own. That alone should tell you that your logic suxxors. :wink:

It pains us to see you using bad logic to justify what is, on the whole, an accurate conclusion. It makes your arguments less strong, which makes people less likely to believe you, which means that your (correct) conclusion becomes less likely to be accepted and/or used by others. Which is a bad thing all around.


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Re: Check my math

Post by Joy_Division »

Um I can't believe you need this pointed out but the initial assumptions are so powerful that the conclusion follows trivially by induction. Saying "adding 15% to any number is 'balanced'" then adding 15% any number of times is 'balanced'. Real numbers happen to have a lot of nice properties built into them. This is one of them.
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Re: Check my math

Post by Username17 »

Exactly. If you accept that adding 15% to any attainable damage value is balanced - then there can't be a problem with Keen Edge and Improved Critical stacking.

Imagine you do 10 points of average dame before criticals. That's 11.5 points after criticals, 13 points after Keen or Improved Criticals, and 14.5 points with both.

That Keen Edge actually adds about 13% of damage because the bonuses from criticals aren't redoubled in any way. The Improved Critical is actually adding about 11.5% of the damage back in.

In short, we've for some reason taken as given that it would be balanced to add 15% damage to any value - 10 points, 11.5 points, 13 points, whatever. But if some of that damage is coming from Keen Edge - Improved Critical isn't adding 15%, it's adding only 11.5%. Significantly less than the amount we've already agreed was balanced.

The question is not "is it balanced to add 1.5 points of damage if you are already averaging 13?" - the ability is normally supposed to add 1.7 points of damage if you are averaging 13! The question is in fact "is it OK for you to be inflicting a shallower bell curve of damage with your weapon?" - a question which is not statistically meaningful or answerable.

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Re: Check my math

Post by Essence »

Joy Division wrote:Um I can't believe you need this pointed out but the initial assumptions are so powerful that the conclusion follows trivially by induction. Saying "adding 15% to any number is 'balanced'" then adding 15% any number of times is 'balanced'. Real numbers happen to have a lot of nice properties built into them. This is one of them.


Frank didn't say "adding 15% to any number is balanced", he said "Adding 15% to the chance that you will inflict a critical hit is balanced." There is no inherent property of one's crit range that makes adding 15% any number of times identically balanced -- in fact, once you've added 15% about six times, you can't fail to land a critical hit, which is instantaenously unbalanced when combined with any number of enchantments/feats/class features that are designed to process on a critical hit. You cannot pretend we are playing with abstract math here; your inference is predicated on a false premise and therefore useless to us.


Now:

Accepting Frank's "logic", we would have to accept that having the Keen enchantment placed on your scimitar three times, then taking Improved Critical thrice, and wielding a +1(+5 due to GMW, of course) vorpal keen keen keen scimitar with a threat range of 2-20 is totally balanced. Because Keen and Improved Crit are balanced, therefore there's no reason for them not to stack with themselves.

My ass.

The rest of the game exists, and any attempt to balance existing facets of the game is meaningless unless you take everything in the game into account. Keen and Improved Crit can, and should, be able to stack -- but absolutely not because of any argument Frank or anyone else has laid out in this thread.


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Re: Check my math

Post by Username17 »

Frank didn't say "adding 15% to any number is balanced", he said "Adding 15% to the chance that you will inflict a critical hit is balanced."

Those are some mighty stupid words you are putting in my mouth, partner.

The two statements are identical. Adding 15% to the chance you inflict a critical hit is adding 15% to the base damage value, irrespective of what that base damage value is.

Thus, I said both things, because the two statements are identical.

Once you've accepted that adding 15% to a hypothetical base value (by increasing the chance of a critical by 5% or 15% depending upon whether you are using a scimitar or a pick) is balanced without reference to what that value is - it flows naturally from that that adding additional critical modifiers is also balanced.

Why? Because at that point each iteration of the critical increasing is just extra damage that isn't "base damage". Which means that unlike any other damage bonus you would happen to have - it isn't multiplied by your critical enhancements. So you are looking at the supposition that adding 15% to your damage (whatever it is) is balanced, and the reality that you are now taking your actual damage value and adding only 11.5% to it.

So if we for some reason accepted that Keen Scimitars were themselves balanced, and Improved Critical Scimitars were balanced - then Improved Critical Keen Scimitars are underpowered.

in fact, once you've added 15% about six times, you can't fail to land a critical hit, which is instantaenously unbalanced when combined with any number of enchantments/feats/class features that are designed to process on a critical hit.


Actually - just with Vorpal. Vorpal is unbalanced whether you have Keen Edge or not - and Flaming Burst is sucktastic even if you automatically land a critical hit every time. Your argument is a straw man: "Look, Vorpal's still just as broken as it has been for nearly thrity years! Therefore the rest of the game has to suffer for it!"

You can't just hand wave "any of a number" of things to break the critical hit stacking rules - it's just one effect and it's broken whether you let Keen apply 5 times, once, or not at all. In fact, the 3.5 version of Vorpal doesn't trigger on a critical at all - just on a "natural twenty" - which is still horribly unbalanced (in that Axes on threat on a twenty, which means they essentially no longer crit at all, and longswords still threaten on a 19), and kind of sucks, but in any case benefits in no way from having a higher threat range.

Your red text not withstanding - your counter arguments are nonsensical and seem to fundamentally miss the point of just about everything I have said on this thread.

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Re: Check my math

Post by Essence »

Frank wrote:Adding 15% to the chance you inflict a critical hit is adding 15% to the base damage value, irrespective of what that base damage value is.

Thus, I said both things, because the two statements are identical.



:jawdrop:

Frank, I have never seen you say anything so obviously wrong in my life. I have to get to work, so I'll respond to the rest of your post later, but let me say this now:

Adding 15% to your chance of critting affects a hell of a lot more than your total damage output. There are several effects in the game with go off when you crit, and if you add 15% to your chance of critting, you're adding 15% to the chance that all of those effects go off.

Right there, the instant you actually stop and take the existance of the rest of the game into account, you are obviously, painfully, wrong.

Math cannot balance this game, because this game is not just math.

More after work.

Essence

EDIT: Fixed emoticons
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Re: Check my math

Post by Username17 »

There are several effects in the game with go off when you crit, and if you add 15% to your chance of critting, you're adding 15% to the chance that all of those effects go off.


Within the Core Rules there are two: Burst Weapons (which suck no matter how much you crit), and Vorpal Weapons (which are unbalanced whatever you do).

That's it.

Now outside the Core Rules there are stupid things in the Book of Exalted Deeds and various Mongoose products that do as you describe - and they are definitionally unbalanced. Any ability that triggers twice as often on a longsword than on a battle axe had better trigger twice as good when it triggers on the battle axe or it is unbalanced. Since almost none of that 3rd party shit remembers to do that - it's unbalanced.

And what exactly do I care if something outside the core rules which is unbalanced becomes even more unbalanced when applied to something in the core rules which itself is perfectly fair? I don't care. And thus, your argument doesn't move me to tears - it moves me to vomit.

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Re: Check my math

Post by Oberoni »


Frank wrote:Any ability that triggers twice as often on a longsword than on a battle axe had better trigger twice as good when it triggers on the battle axe or it is unbalanced.


Errrr...there's lots of stuff that goes better with some things than others.

Everything in the game is, by this definition, unbalanced.
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Re: Check my math

Post by Essence »

Frank wrote:Within the Core Rules there are two: Burst Weapons (which suck no matter how much you crit), and Vorpal Weapons (which are unbalanced whatever you do).

That's it.



Nope. Psionics made it into the SRD, which means Soul Feeder, Mind Feeder and Body Feeder weapons are core. That's five independent effects just within the SRD that make all of your beautiful math irrelevant.

Keen Edge, the Keen enchantment, and Improved Crit should stack. No one is arguing that. But implying that it's OK to allow a character to achieve a point at which every single successful attack is a critical threat is crap, and you know it.

You are attempting to win the argument by redefinition, but if you read TKD's initial posts, you'll see that this thread was never about 15% additional damage, it's about how far a character can stretch his crit range -- and the answer is "not as far as your wanna-be-reasoning says he should be able to."


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Re: Check my math

Post by Username17 »

Nope. Psionics made it into the SRD, which means Soul Feeder, Mind Feeder and Body Feeder weapons are core.


That is, in fact, not what it means.

It means that Soul Feeder weapons are open gaming license - not the same thing at all. But good try.

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