Lago's List of Ruined PrCs

[Lago_AM3P]

This is a powerful argument not to invest in 3.5E on its own, numerous rules and conceptual problems aside.

Most of the time, when PrCs are 'updated', they turn out way worse than before. Sometimes they turn out to be stupidly overpowered than before (Incantatrix, Frenzied Berserker), but most of the time they end up sucking. So. Off of the top of my head, here is a list of PrCs that 3.5E ruined for me.

Archmage- The prerequisites are nerfed and they removed one of the few reasons to take this class.
Hierophant- Now with 50% more crying than before! Only useful in epic levels.
Red Wizard- I don't remember how Circle Magic was like in 3.0E, but in this edition it's straight-up retarded nuts. All of the save DCs they 'lost' in 3.5E are back with a vengeance and now they can kill minor and intermediate deities with a UMD check.
Frenzied Berserker- This is actually subjective. While it gives a reason for fighters to exist at higher levels, the real original purpose was to give two-weapon fighting a fighting chance against two-handed weapons. This PrC just reminds me how much TWF blows now.
Incantatrix- This PrC was one of the most complained about on the boards of all times, so the solution was to make it even MORE powerful? Wha?
Tattoo Monk- The game designers just really hate monks. I don't know why they bother keeping the class in this edition if they have such a lack of understanding for this class.
Drunken Master- For a brief instance before Complete Warrior came out but after 3.5E came out, this PrC was actually really good if you could somehow meet the prerequisites. I liked the ability where you got to charge but it didn't have to be in a straight line. Now it blows and no longer stacks with magic weapons. What. The hell?
Sacred Fist- This is one of the few changes that actually really pisses me off. The original one, despite being goofy and unbalanced, had a specific flavor and was actually rather fun. Now its a huge wad of boring ass that doesn't do anything.


Here are some PrCs that they actually made better.

Church Inquisitor- Clerics can easily qualify for it by level 3 now, ending empty levels and adding a phat bonus to skill checks.
Blood Magus- Um, yay? WTF? It's still not worth taking to the end, but I can actually see someone taking it now.
Exotic Weapon Master- Has marginally more flavor than before and doesn't force you to stick to empty levels. Good.
Tainted Spellcaster (Maho Tsukai)- Still astoundingly broken, since it comboes off of power leech like no one's business. But it isn't quite as broken as before.
Spellsword- If you have a certain feat from those stoopid Faerun Sourcebooks, an arcane spellcaster can qualify for it for no reason. It beats before, when it lost to core rules characters.
Cavalier- While it no longer has full-mounted attack, it seriously doesn't matter. Polymorphing is so crack-ass in this edition that both you and your mount can have pounce for free. Easier prerequisites, an enhancement to mounts and an awesome charge multiplier make this the win.

[Lago_AM3P]

More ruined PrCs...

Knight Protector- They took away the attack bonus and replaced it with a tiny ass defense bonus! Look at this shit! They hate fighters so much. And the prereqs are worse, too.

Swashbuckler- Completely nerfed in every way except for the thing that made them even remotely objectionable. Congratulations, you horrible people!

Dragon Disciple- I didn't think that they'd be able to make it worse, but they did. I bet when you get to hell, Satan will make all of you douches take a level of this PrC.

Contemplative- Wizards nor really anyone can qualify for it. But they have the arcane disciple feat in the same book, so who knows? I wouldn't really call this wizard hate.

Divine Oracle- This I would call wizard hate. Why did they gotta do that? This PrC wasn't even remotely overpowered for a diviner to take.

Sacred Exorcist- Worse in every way than before, from the reduction in featness to the loss of the prestige domain. But this edition has divine metamagic, so who gives a rat's ass?

Bear Warrior- Exactly the same as before, except that the massive polymorph improvement got moved up a level. Barbarians don't need a stick in their eye, so it is objectively worse.

Bladesinger- The 3.0E one was a confusing bag of ass, but a lot of people wanted to play it (see Sacred Fist). It's almost, ALMOST as good as a rogue in combat with the right crap but lacks in the skills department.

Maho Buijin/Tainted Warrior- Nerfed to the point of unplayability. And that's all she wrote.

More to come. I'm too depressed to write more.

[Wrenfield]

Duelist 3.0 was cute. You could use it with a baseline Monk/Shou Disciple and use your freakin' Siangham. A Spiked Shield combatant with the Shield Bash feat could also take it. Or a tricked-out Spiked Chain user with the Monkey Grip feat. You could even be goofy and pull out your Hand Crossbow to get benefits from it.

Now ... the 3.5 Duelist is total crap-ass. The incremented INT-to-AC bonuses are stupid, the class benefits were shuffled around, watered down, and stomped on. And instead of that +3d6 Sneak Attack Wannabee "Precise Streak" .. you get +2d6. And that last +1d6 is your "keystone award" at 10th level.

Heh - imagine a Ftr4 / Rog3 / Duelist9 getting rewarded at 16th level with a class ability of .... DEFLECT ARROWS. Meanwhile a Wizard5 / Incantatrix10 (one level behind you) is breaking the game 6 ways to Sunday.

Oye vey.

[Lago_AM3P]

Knight of the Chalice- This has also been nerfed and for the life of me I cannot fathom the reason. They were a metric ton of refined, flawless ass back in 3.0E, and now they're worse.

Order of the Bow Initiate- Remember way back when when we tried our damned hardest to make decent non-cleric archers? This, along with the Peerless Archer, was the vital link in that cliched combo. Now it's completely nerfed, and completely suck. Why do the game designers hate freedom?

Hospitaler- OMFG CLERIKZ GOT FOUR EXTRA BONUS FEATZ IN EXCHANGE FOR HAVING 2 TAKE 2 CRAPPY ONES BETTER NERF IT LOL WHOOPS 2 MUCH OH WELL AT LEAST THE GAME IS BALANCED TIME TO PLAYTEST D&D ED'Z DRUID IS SO COOLOL

And for the Pissed in the Bowl of PrC Cornflakes Award:

Consecrated Harrier- I think this PrC got nerfed more than any other PrC in the history of 3.5E. If you became a mad cultist like Death Rattle or David Koresh and redefined your enemies on the spot, this PrC was actually really good. This was probably the only fighter PrC ever published that could take on druids. Now look at it! Just LOOK at it! I feel like the time I watched Mae West, age 70+, was portrayed as a hot sex startlet in that awful movie Sexette. SHUT YOUR MOUTH I NEVER SAW THAT MOVIE I JUST READ THE REVIEW ON JABOOTU.

[Oberoni]

Lago, you crack me up. I think it's sig-changing time pretty soon.

[Wrenfield]

Keep in mind, 3.0 Sacred Exorcist and Templar were allso all "the bomb" back in the day.

Come 3.5, their revision didn't kill them, they just aren't as uber as they used to be.

**

Yeah - Templar was a definite acquisition for Fighter types who didn't want to suck. You could bypass the inefficient Ftr3/Ftr4 levels and get Templar1 (with Weapon Specialization - important for some Archer builds and whatever) while having a baseline build that cherry-picked martial classes with frontloaded goodies.

A Paladin3 / Fighter2 baseline was pretty nice for a Templar, since you could Power Attack/Divine Might at Pal3.

[Username17]

Come 3.5, their revision didn't kill them, they just aren't as uber as they used to be.

Correction: It didn't ruin the Sacred Exorcist. But Sacred Exorcist will always be worth it, just for the hit point bonus to Wizards. It doesn't really matter what it does, and the fact that it doesn't do much in 3.5 is therefore not much of an impediment.

The 3.5 Templar is asstastic.

-Username17

[MrWaeseL]

Hey Lago, how does that Red Wizard stuff work now?

[Username17]

Step One: Stand in a circle jerk with five to nine of your simulacrums.

Step Two: All simulacrums expend a spell slot.

Step Three: Your caster level is 40 for the next 24 hours.

Step Four: Put your Orange Ioun Stones back on.

Step Five: Your caster level now exceeds the magic number of 47, go kill Pelor with no save.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

What does a high caster level do for a wizard?

I know clerics can abuse holy word, but what do wizards have like that?

[Count Arioch the 28th]

3.5 completely ruined Elemental savant.

Not only did they take out another caster level, and nerfed the saves, but they make it so you now can't cast spells NOT you element type.

However, Fatespinner is now worth ot for 4 out of 5 levels. Don't see anyone taking the 5th level at any time.

[Wrenfield]

1104951309[/unixtime]]What does a high caster level do for a wizard?

I know clerics can abuse holy word, but what do wizards have like that?

More flexibility with the Draconic Polymorph (Draconomicon) and Shapechange spells regarding HD cap.

Better defense against chronic enemy Dispel Magics. Rife at higher level play - especially them damn evil outsiders.

Telekinesis BAB and Evard's Black Tentacle attack bonus ...

Etc. ...

[Lago_AM3P]

A Red Wizard can either:

Use the Arcane Disciple feat and choose an alignment domain.

Use the wish spell.

Use a stave with Blasphemy/Holy Word and get a UMD check. This is actually the easiest method ever.

[Wrenfield]

1104977730[/unixtime]]3.5 completely ruined Elemental savant.

Not only did they take out another caster level, and nerfed the saves, but they make it so you now can't cast spells NOT you element type.

Elemental Savant was always bland anyway. Even the most tricked-out min/maxified Elemental Wizards I saw in actual play never really amounted to power character in my book. Because the type of person who took ES, was usually a blaster mentality spellcaster. And that meant people who liked casting Fireball-like evocations (and their elemental-based alternates) even at higher levels. So even with 3.0 ES's supposedly good class abilities, that caster had multiple dilemmas to overcome with his typical repertoire of offensive spells.

1. Beat SR.
2. Beat Reflex Save.
3. Beat Energy Resistance.
4. Deal weak quantities of damage.

Meanwhile, other spellcasters in the party were casting battlefield control or save-or-die spells and TOTALLY winning the combat.

[Oberoni]

Well, yeah, I don't think anyone's disputing that, we're actually just a little miffed that the Savant, who wasn't all that über to begin with, got weaker for absolutely no damn good reason.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Exactly.

the elemental savant wasn't too impressive, but it didn't kick you in the balls to take it, now it does.

[The_Hanged_Man]

At least ES was a decent reason for being a blastaholic instead of the save-or-die or polymorph guy, back in the day.

[Thoth_Amon]

I liked the Air Elemental Savant. I thought the bonuses were pretty cool and you did not have to make your caster an elemental blaster.

In 3.0 it was the only PrC I ever saw where I considered missing a caster level. (I know it is because I am stupid, but I actually thought it was pretty cool.)

But I died so it was no matter!!

TA