Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

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Username17
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Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by Username17 »

Here's a thread which is just for really weird changes that are in 3.5 that you probably wouldn't have noticed unless you did a very careful read through of the rules. Here are a few obscure ones, feel free to add more:

* Incorporeal Creatures can not walk through walls. That's right, Incorporeal Creatures can walk in to walls, but not through. They have to stay "adjacent to the object's exterior" - whatever the hell that means.

* Command Plants and Control Plants have switched. That's right, "Control Plants" is now named "Command Plants". "Command Plants" is now named "Control Plants".

* The Cover rules no longer have explicit guidelines. The cover description is still the same number of paragraphs (11) - but they replaced the chart showing how much cover provided how much bonus with a diagram on how to determine if building corners were in your line of sight. Now the concept of arrow slits has been relegated to a DM call and an ad-hoc AC bonus. Weird.

* Line Effects are now variably large depending upon shot angle. A 5' line used to be one square wide and however long - now it is a piece of string that goes from the corner of one square out in any direction - hitting any square it goes though or touches the edges or corners of. Which means, among other things, that the total number of squares a 15' line affects can be 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 depending upon exact direction of firing.

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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by Incarnadine »

FrankTrollman wrote:They have to stay "adjacent to the object's exterior" - whatever the hell that means.


You'd think the interior was adjacent to the exterior. Or at least the fiberglass.

Weirdness.
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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by Psifon »

I assume that means that you can walk through a wall that is less than 5' thick, but you can't move deeper into a wall than that. So a 10' thick wall is impassible. Note that there ARE no 5.5' thick walls.
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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by Username17 »

Note that there ARE no 5.5' thick walls.


Of course there are. Magically created walls are still created by the inch.

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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by da_chicken »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1071193023[/unixtime]]* Incorporeal Creatures can not walk through walls.


Don't see where you're getting this one from. DMG p295: "[Incorporeal creatures] can pass through solid objects at will [...]".

* Command Plants and Control Plants have switched.


Thought this was fairly common knowledge. A semantic difference outlined in the conversion doc.

* The Cover rules no longer have explicit guidelines.


Not sure why they did this. Maybe they felt that 3.0 was too graduated or too difficult to adjudicate quickly. Not a major change, or even a particularly exciting one. Cover was pretty rare. Come to think of it, every time my DMs used cover, the first thing they asked was "what does x degree of cover give you?".

* Line Effects are now variably large depending upon shot angle.


This isn't so much of a change as it is an increased description of how area effects work when forced on the game grid. In 3.0 they were wholly left up to the DM to adjuducate. Probably done to help with the mini's game. Only real difference is that you can line up a 5' wide line on the border between two squares and affect a 10' wide area. That's why lightning bolt no longer has two different areas and ranges.
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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by Username17 »

Don't see where you're getting this one from.


The definition of the Incorporeal subtype.

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own.


Emphasis mine.

Cover was pretty rare.


I can't tell if you are kidding ot not. I use cover all the time, both as a player and as a DM. I don't understand why people wouldn't take advantage of it - nor do I understand why people would bother to play in battlefields so exceptionally devoid of features that cover would actually be unavailable.

That's why lightning bolt no longer has two different areas and ranges.


Yes. Now it has dozens of different areas and ranges.

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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by da_chicken »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1072005552[/unixtime]]
Don't see where you're getting this one from.


The definition of the Incorporeal subtype.


Yeah, I looked in the MM after posting and found it. I have no idea what monkey was hired to type that out. Quite obviously, he was on crack and McDonaldland Cookies.

I wouldn't have a problem if say, a 1 inch layer of silver, cold iron, or some specific material blocked incorporeal movement entirely. But they have no mass. They're not made of matter. That's rather what incorporeal is. Does stone suddenly get thicker after 5 feet? And why can earth elementals and xorn move through it so much easier than creatures that aren't event affected by matter?

I would help if they offered some reasonable explanation, but no. As it stands, the MM contradicts the 3.5 DMG and all precedented rules. This rule fails my basic sanity check.

Then again, maybe they're actually trying to differentiate between creatures with the Incorporeal subtype and those with Incorporeality? Nevermind the stupidity that would bring about that thought process.

Cover was pretty rare.


I can't tell if you are kidding ot not.


I'm not kidding. Cover tends to be difficult to find in the games I play. 9 times out of 10, cover is from a wall (i.e., total) or half due to allies interfering with archery.

Just saying that IMX this is a trivial change. Especially since varying degrees of cover is basically a rule variant contained in the PH itself. I suppose it's just a change for change's sake in that there's no obviously compelling reason to discard 3.0's system, but it looks like a molehill to me.

That's why lightning bolt no longer has two different areas and ranges.


Yes. Now it has dozens of different areas and ranges.


It's not any different Frank, except that you can't make a forked stroke. All the areas in 3.5 were possible in 3.0 [with the forked stroke] unless you actually forced your players to only cast in the 4 cardinal directions of an arbitrarily placed grid. You still can't strike an area more than 2 squares wide. Of course, 3.0 never defined what went on if you cast a line spell exactly diagonally. It left it entirely up to the DM, so exactly what area was affected would vary from game to game. (Which is arguably bad when you're thinking spell balance.)

All 3.5 did was explicitly define a quick and easy way to determine which squares get affected by the spell, since the game now assumes you're playing on a grid rather than just supporting it. 3.0 relied on DM judgement calls, and now you don't have to do that.
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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by Psifon »

da_chicken at [unixtime wrote:1071997352[/unixtime]]

Not sure why they did this. Maybe they felt that 3.0 was too graduated or too difficult to adjudicate quickly. Not a major change, or even a particularly exciting one. Cover was pretty rare. Come to think of it, every time my DMs used cover, the first thing they asked was "what does x degree of cover give you?".


This is an irellivant question that slowed down your game. The proper question is "how many points of AC, do I get from this object of cover? After that, all you have to know is that creatures and corners in your line of sight provide a +4 bonus, and arrow slits provide a +10 bonus, Everything else is just a DM's call, so who cares what percentage it is?

I never had problems with the old lightning bolt. You just follow the grid, and tile the effect across the battlemat, in whatever repeating pattern the caster desires. 3 up, one over, 3 up, one over, etc. It worked fine. They just wanted to dumb it down for the sake of the stupid.

Incorporeality is another issue. I kind of see why they might have done this, since weightless creatures in stone have no way of telling where the surface of the planet is. This prevents creatures from wandering in the earth forever (shudders). On the other hand burrowing creatures are at least aware of gravity, so they don't face this hazard.
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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by da_chicken »

Psifon at [unixtime wrote:1072057670[/unixtime]]This is an irellivant question that slowed down your game. The proper question is "how many points of AC, do I get from this object of cover?


That is what they're asking. I didn't post the first thing say'd say or think (i.e., "this object is this degree of cover") because it is nonsensical to think of the question existing without the first. You should have been able to suppose that they had already concluded what degree would be appropriate, since it was obviously a requisite to asking what benefit degree X gives.

After that, all you have to know is that creatures and corners in your line of sight provide a +4 bonus, and arrow slits provide a +10 bonus, Everything else is just a DM's call, so who cares what percentage it is?


You're assuming my DMs remember +4 from corners and +10 from arrow slits. You'd be wrong.

I'm the only one at my tables who knows how to calculate spell DCs without looking them up. That's why all those character sheets have spots for you to write them down. I have one DM who routinely asks this question multiple times in the same encounter.
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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by Psifon »

Wow, what a drag.

I feal your pain chicken.
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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by Username17 »

Yeah, all of my players long ago grasped how big of an area you could shoot arrows through or cast spells past. They routinely leave doors partially closed, or stand next to trees in order to give themselves some measure of protection from some parts of the battlefield.

There's little reason to ever not do that - just like in real battles.

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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I'm a little unfamiliar with cover myself, so forgive me if thi sound stupid, but doesn't cove rmess up all your own attacks just as much as it messes up theirs?

The one and only time I used cover, the goblin got a crritical hit and took me down to 1 HP from around 12 at level 2.
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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by Tae_Kwon_Dan »

It shouldn't. If I cover the lower half of my body making myself a smaller target, but not impeding my arms there shouldn't be a penalty.

The cover rules pretty much always assumed the coveree was positioning themselves for maximum personal offensive and defensive benefit.
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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by Username17 »

If one character is standing closer to the cover, the cover does not impede them. So in the tree example, by standing next to it you suffer no penalties for the cover and recieve defensive benefit (as one would expect).

The only time cover usually works both ways is either in melee, or in graduated cover like that produced by a web spell.

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Re: Really Weird 3.5 Trivia

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Okay.

In that case, I'll use it more often from now on.
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