Saving our party from inadequacy...

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Jack_Lurch
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Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Jack_Lurch »

The Assassin PrC pretty much eats, but a guy in my group is determined to play that type of character. He likes what he calls the "rogue enhancing" spells while still maintaining the sneak attack progression.

If we can get the DM to go for it, what do you guys think about a combo of the Arcane trickster and the Assassin? The class is ten levels long, runs exactly like the Arc Trickster, except that it gives the Assassin spell progression instead of additional levels of spellcasting like the Arc Trkstr. requirements are a combo of assassin and Arc Trickster but with the Mage Hand requirement removed. Mage Hand would become a class ability, castable once per class level per day.

Too powerful? Still underpowered?

What do you guys think?

-Jack

EDIT: The character is currently a fourth level human rogue, but by the end of this adventure could be as high as sixth level.
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Username17 »

The Assassin does, in fact, eat. And it does so for the following reasons:

1> In standard D&D, your BAB progression restarts every time you take a new class (even a PrC). While that makes no difference to a Swordsman, Assassin is a class that concentrates on stabbing people and for the first two levels you may as well be multiclassing into Wizard for all the BAB you are getting.

2> Your caster level in Assassin, or any other class, is your class level in that class. When you are looking at a caster level of one at 6th or even 9th level - your spells essentially have no offensive or long duration uses at all. And in a class which supposedly is based on sneaking around (which requires long durations) and stabbing people (an inherently offensive task) - your spells are of limited use at best.

3> The basic Rogue class starts giving really sweet abilities when your level in the class starts hitting double didgits. The Assassin class, meanwhile, seems like it is balanced along the lines of the first 10 levels of the class.

---
So what does that mean?

It means that when you start taking the class you'll be sucking for a few levels waiting for your BAB to catch up and your spells to have a duration long enough to matter in any way. Then a couple of levels later you'll be sucking because instead of having the all important Skill Mastery - you won't.

Unless you retooled the entire class to have special powers that made it catch up to special Rogue Abilities about half way through - it's just not going to be good for anything.

The class is ten levels long, runs exactly like the Arc Trickster, except that it gives the Assassin spell progression instead of additional levels of spellcasting like the Arc Trkstr. requirements are a combo of assassin and Arc Trickster but with the Mage Hand requirement removed. Mage Hand would become a class ability, castable once per class level per day.


What exactly would the point of this class be?

The Arcane Trickster only makes any sense because you are about 5 levels behind in Roguing and 3 levels behind in Wizarding - and then you get to Mystic Theurge for 10 levels. Ending up as an 18th level character who is still 5 levels behind in Roguing and 3 levels behind in Wizarding. Which honestly, still sucks because you could just be an 18th level Rogue and take the Leadership feat and be followed around by a 16th level Wizard and a pack of Quasits (or vice versa - whatever).

What you are talking about is a character who mystic theurges with a class they don't even have - starting at level 6. Meaning that at 16th level they'll have spells that don't mean crap and be slightly behind on their Roguing (by which I mean: 40 skill points in the hole), and still not have Skill Mastery. Meaning that they could just be a straight Rogue and spend a single feat on Leadership and be followed around by a powerful Wizard whose job it was to cast buff spells on them.

The Assassin spells aren't worth anything at the level you get them - charging the character anything for them is essentially a kick in the crotch. This is a cooperative game, it's not like the real wizard can't spare a 4th level spell slot to give you Improved Invisibility that would last longer than an "Assassin's" - and at a lower level too. In fact, by the time an Assassin can lay a 7 minute Improved Invisibility on himself, the Rogue's cohort magician can use his second highest level slot to cast the same spell that lasts 10 minutes.

-Username17
Jack_Lurch
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Jack_Lurch »

In listening to the guy rant, it sounds like, to me, he wants to be a rogue that can cast assassin spells, and is willing to give up all the other assassin abilities (not a big deal, but still) and the high level rogue abilities in order to get said spells.

He is apparently trying to recreate an old 2e character. Anyway, is the idea of a PrC that is essentially a rogue but grants assassin spells at the assassin spell progression inherently unbalancing if the high level rogue abilities are given up in the bargain?

-Jack
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Incarnadine »

Jack_Lurch at two different times wrote: The Assassin PrC pretty much eats, but a guy in my group is determined to play that type of character. He likes what he calls the "rogue enhancing" spells while still maintaining the sneak attack progression.

...

He is apparently trying to recreate an old 2e character.



Jack -- This is amazingly creepy. We have this guy in our group, too. Loves the assassin. Trying to recreate a character he played a while ago. fbmf can corroborate. Weird coincidence. :wtf:
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fbmf
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by fbmf »

Incarnadine wrote:
fbmf can corroborate.


[ACTION]corroborates[/ACTION]

Game On,
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Username17 »

Anyway, is the idea of a PrC that is essentially a rogue but grants assassin spells at the assassin spell progression inherently unbalancing if the high level rogue abilities are given up in the bargain?


Um... not in the least.

Essentially you are looking in the long run at a 20th level character who is going to have a BAB of only +14, 2 extra points of Reflex save, have a trap sense of +3, and only one special ability.

So... you have to ask yourself: would you rather have +3 Trap Sense and 3 special Rogue abilities or the entire Assassin spellcasting progression?

The basic Assassin spells are: Disguise Self, Detect Poison, Ghost Sound, Obscuring Mist, Spider Climb, Alter Self, Darkness, Pass Without Trace, Undetectable Alignment, Deeper Darkness, Invisibility, Misdirection, Nondetection, Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Improved Invisibility, and Poison. The spells in bold text are the ones with a Self-only range, and are thus the only ones which it is advantageous to be able to personally cast as opposed to having the party spellcasters use what will then be low level spells to assist you.

So how much would you have to bribe the party spellcasters to heap Improved Invisibility and Pass Without Trace on you? Maybe a couple of relevent Pearls of Power? That's about 17 to 30 thousand gold worth of magic items.

How much would it cost to get the equivalent of Improved Evasion, Opportunist, and Crippling Strike? I'm guessing more than 30 grand, which means that the pile on the left is simply larger than the pile on the right.

When I say that the Assassin list isn't worth anything - I'm dead serious. It has no value at all. In fact, you can have more spellcasting by investing in Use Magic Device, taking Skill Mastery, and buying a bunch of Wands. With Skill Mastery you don't roll, so if you make the minimum DC of 20 when you roll a 10 you always make the check.

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Jack_Lurch
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Jack_Lurch »

I hadn't considered the Skill Mastery/Wand of Disguise Self angle. Interesting points.

-Jack
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fbmf
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by fbmf »

If the guys is human, he gets at least 9 skill points per round, which means he had better have at least 8 skills maxed at ever given level if he expexts to be a contributing member of the party, rogue-wise.

No reason on of the "Chosen 8" cannot be UMD, and wands, especially of low level spells, are relatively cheap.

Do you have a wizard/sorceror/hellevenabard in the party?

Game On,
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Ramnza
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Ramnza »

Out of curiousity Jack, what about the Assassin did your friend want this character to have? The spells are kind of eh, the poison use is pretty cool and at least sneak attack dice are added. But other than that, there really isn't much else. He can try multiclassing into a sorcerer and then at least he can take some spells that help him to be a better rogue. You were talking about adding some Arc Trick levels, which having some levels of is actually pretty neat. The Ranged Rogue skill use is very valuable and some added levels of spell casting can be beneficial. Maybe a combination of all. The character spreed sheet that fbmf created for me is actually really good. At 12th lvl I've got 8d6 sneak attack damage (would've eventually had it, but I have it now, that's what matters), some assassin and sorcerer spells, ranged rogue skills, and poison use. My BAB suffered a little, nothing pumping up the Dex can't take care of and a magical long sword.

But it will sort of be his decision and some people only learn the hard way. I had a character last campaign that at first was awesome and then kind of just stayed that way, so she became useless when everyone else passed her...so sad.

Will he really be that underbalanced compared to the rest of the party?
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fbmf
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by fbmf »

Actually, under the 3.5 rules, Arcane Tricksters lost there intial +3d6 Sneak Attack dice, so you do only have +6d6.

Ranged legerdemain is pretty awesome, though.

Game On,
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Jack_Lurch
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Jack_Lurch »

We have a sorceror, but he is multiclassed all to hell (don't ask.)

I'm going to try to talk the rogue into going with wands and a maxed UMD skill and see what happens. Frank brings up a valid point: Improved Evasion and Skill Mastery kick much hiney.

-Jack
Medesha
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Medesha »

Look on the bright side. At least you don't have a cleric character wanting to multiclass with...bard...like in my game...
Jack_Lurch
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Jack_Lurch »

Medesha wrote:
Look on the bright side. At least you don't have a cleric character wanting
to multiclass with...bard


:wtf:

I'm...sorry.

-Jack
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Incarnadine »

Medesha wrote:At least you don't have a cleric character wanting to multiclass with...bard...like in my game...


Sounds like somebody got Florence Nightingale confused with the Swedish Nightingale (Jenny Lind). That bird thing. It always throws me, too.

(Okay. It was a stretch. I'm going now before I embarass myself more. :bolt: )
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

The thing is, Assassin is a decent class . . . . when used by the DM, who has no problem setting up favorable situations. (Such as setting up with improved invis, fox's cunning, etc, as well as the 3 round studying).

However, I have found that players rarely have that luxury.
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Username17 »

No. It's not.

At 15th level you can use most of your 1/day abilities (Pass Without Trace and Improved Invis) to get one attack at special bonuses, which if it hits makes the target makes a Fort Save at about DC 26 or die.

And you have to be alone to do it. And your BAB is only +10.

Wizards at 15th level can do exactly the same thing to entire groups of enemies at once, and they don't need to make an attack roll, and they can do it every round, and most importantly of all they can take their friends along on these excursions.

Death Attack is a joke. It's exactly the same "Save Or Die" ability that all the real spellcasters get, except that instead of being any good it sucks.

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Count Arioch the 28th
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I had an argument here, but I realized it would be more or less splitting hairs about the wording on the death attack ability. I don't like arguing semantics, so I will pull out of this argument.
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Ramnza
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Ramnza »

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:I have found that players rarely have that luxury.


I have to agree, studying someone for three rounds is sometimes not something one has the option to do when other PC's are dying. :roundnround:
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Essence
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Essence »

So, let's re-write Death Attack to make it more in-line with a save-or-die spell available at 10th character level to a caster-type:

Death Attack (Ex): An assassin can make a death attack as a full-round action against a foe who has lost his Dex bonus to AC against the Assassin. The assassin makes a single attack roll; if the attack is successful, the victim must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the assassin's character level + the assassin's Intelligence modifier), or either suffer the effects of a coup-de-grace from the assassin or become paralyzed for the assassin's class level in rounds and take damage from the assassin's attack (assassin's choice). If the victim succeeds at his save, he merely takes damage from the assassin's attack.


There you have an ability with the cost of "all but one of your attacks this round" -- a significant penalty for a rogue-type who normally counts on huge damage from Sneak Attack buildup over multiple attacks -- and has a benefit of "fail to avoid in attack, fail two saves, and die" or "fail to avoid an attack, fail one save, and become paralyzed".

Is that more in line with what a 10th level character should be able to do?


Essence
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Ramnza »

Well, I'm certainly not going to turn it down as a rogue. Now I'm not suggesting that the writers made everything perfectly balanced or frankly we wouldn't be here right now slapping them across the face with better ideas, but how off balance is that going to be? I mean, what's going to stop me from using it every round? It's like a wizard having Time Stop, why not use it everytime?

Hmm...or not. That DC is pretty easy when you think about it. Until you become pretty high lvl.
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Username17 »

When I rewrote the Assassin class so that a player could use it I simply let people use a limited number of Death Attacks per day - like a Monk's Stunning Fist.

You made a normal Sneak Attack, expended a Death Attack Use, and the victim had to make a Fort Save or die.

It's really not that big of a deal. Of course, when I wrote the Assassin for Final Fantasy - they don't even get Death Attacks - they get the ability to cast Evocation style spells on people while stabbing them.

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Essence
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Essence »

Ramnza wrote:I mean, what's going to stop me from using it every round?


Nothing, except that a full-attack with sneak attack dice involved is often going to be more lethal than a single attack made over a full round, even if that attack has an attached save-twice-or-die effect.


Essence
Ramnza
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Ramnza »

A valid point indeed. I shall have to discuss this at the next gaming session. Hmmm. This is me plotting
:roundnround:
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Username17 »

Essence at [unixtime wrote:1070602970[/unixtime]]
Ramnza wrote:I mean, what's going to stop me from using it every round?


Nothing, except that a full-attack with sneak attack dice involved is often going to be more lethal than a single attack made over a full round, even if that attack has an attached save-twice-or-die effect.


Almost always, in fact. The only reason you would use a "Death Attack" is if it somehow allowed you to kill enemies faster. Causing it to take more time is, therefore, causing it to be useless.

You'd never trade in sneak attacks for less sneak attacks - even if the target had a chance of falling over dead. The whole point is that you are already doing massive damage - and by this point are doing it more than once. You are pretty much always more likely to kill the target just by sneak attacking him more times.

-Username17
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Re: Saving our party from inadequacy...

Post by Draco_Argentum »

What if you just made a new rogue special ability that allows the use of some spells from the assasin list a few times per day as spelllike abilities. Caster level equal to rogue level.
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