Complete Warrior

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Draco_Argentum
Duke
Posts: 2434
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Complete Warrior

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Lago says the PrCs and core classes are crap but the feats are good. Anyone agree/disagree? Is it worth getting or is it as crappily written as the ELH?
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Username17 »

It actually has some moderately insightful things to say about war, especially as relates to a fantasy environment. It contrasts the ancient battlefield with its tight groups of poorly informed soldiers with modern warfare and its artillery and such - not a bad piece. Although unfortunately, it's way too little of the book.

The Core Classes are just puzzling. The Hexblade in particular is just asstastic. It's time for people to get a grip: putting the word "arcane" on something doesn't give it a license to suck. An arcane spell is just like a Divine Spell except that it has Armor Spell Failure - which means that getting "arcane" spells is a disadvantage - not a powerup by any means. The Hexblade just gets kicked in the crotch over and over again - being just like a Paladin except that you get less abilities in exchange for it being more trouble to use your spells once you get them. The Samurai and Swashbuckler seem to be "balanced" against the Fighter but more spread out. That means that they are about 9 levels of abilities short of a 20 level class and start that inferiority at first level. You might take the Swashbuckler for one level if you were taking Weapon Finesse anyway - but maybe not. You certainly wouldn't take the next level (gives the same bonus to Reflex Save that level as you would have gotten if you were in a Reflex Good class, but still didn't give the +2 you missed out on last level).

Now, as for PrCs, there are like 36 of them in here. Here's the breakdown:

Bear Warrior: This class shows the correct way to do Wildshape - as a series of stat bonuses rather than as a stat replacement system. Unfortunately this class seriously gives exactly three abilities in 10 levels. They are decent enough abilities - but who are they fooling?

Bladesinger: It's one level long. You get +1 BAB and a Spellcaster Level for the first level. And you get a +1 Dodge Bonus. The next level allows you to take 10 on Combat Casting rolls - even though the class requires the Combat Casting feat so you'd never fail those checks even on a 1 - especially if your level was so far outstripping your highest spell level that you were willing to give up a caster level for this "ability".

Cavalier: The Class is sort of better now, in that it is easier to qualify for and levels in it stack with your Paladin levels for purposes of Special Mount. However, they've nerfed Full Mounted Attack so the class really doesn't build up to anything special. Still, as a signle level it genuinely rocks.

Dark Hunter: You start as a Ranger/Rogue Dwarf. You pretty much stay a Ranger/Rogue Dwarf. It's got five levels, but only 4 of them are worth taking. In those levels you get +4 BAB, add 60 feet to your Darkvision, get a sneak attack die, get +10 to your hide checks and get to hide anywhere you are near earth or stone (notkidding) and double your stonecunning ability. If you are a Dwarf or Tunnel Hobbit, and you are a Ranger/Rogue - this class is really good without being broken.

Darkwood Stalker: I's like the Dark Hunter except that it is for Elven Ranger/Rogues - so it's spread out over 10 levels and most of the good abilities have been replaced with favored enemy bonuses against Orcs. Dumb.

Dervish: You dance, you stab people, you only take 3 levels of it and you get the ability to move your speed while making full attacks in a horribly over-complicated write up! Not for everybody - but it's not bad for being so short (officially, it's 10 levels - but who are they fooling? 4th level is just the cleave feat with restrictions - it doesn't even stack with cleave - 6th level is just half of Improved Initiative. As soon as a class starts giving out half feats - I'm otta there)

Drunken Master: You get the BAB of a Cleric and don't get sneak attack or spells. Next!

Exotic Weapon Master: They seem to have forgotten something here. Like, maybe, a skill list? There are only 3 skills on the skill list here - one of them is Profession. I don't understand. The class is literally three levels long, and each lets you pick a bonus feat from a special list that only they get. Some of these feats are half as good as normal feats - some are twice as good (one, for example, gives you +2 on Trip checks when fighting with certain weapons, another one gives you flurry of blows with Spiked Chains) - choose wisely.

Eye of Gruumsh: Mediocre. While it is silly, it isn't bad. It's essentially villain only - so its massive failings and stupid ability names don't really matter.

Frenzied Berserker: Crazy stupid powerful. After 10 levels you can charge around on a horse and do 12 points of bonus damage for every point you power attack for. There's a feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds that negates this class' only weakness. Ugh.

Gnome Giant Slayer: It hates Giants. Alot. I approve, but it really isn't good enough at this to make up for the degree to which it isn't any good at absolutely anything else.

Halfling Outrider: Appears to be written by someone really stupid. For example: one of their 10th level abilities (character level 15 minimum) requires a Ride Check with a DC of 25 - and goes into detail about what happens if you fail. The class gives a +10 competence bonus - so the character is looking at a Ride bonus of +30 at this point before Dex modifiers (the character is definitionally a halfling...) That kind of non-thinking permeates the class through and through.

Hulking Hurler: You are a giant, you throw rocks. That's about it. It's short and still a waste of space.

Hunter of the Dead: This class still sucks. It's better than it was - but a Cleric is still better than this class at the only thing it does and can still raise the frickin dead.

Invisible Blade Dumb class, but marginally effective for all that. In 5 levels you get +3d6 sneak attack (only usable with daggers) and +5 BAB. You also get some dumb abilities and miss out on a wad of skills. For people who think of Rogues as an alternate way of dealing damage and haven't figured out about Lucern Hammers.

Justicar: You tie people up. A good class for two levels or so - and a nice flavor. The thing where it pretends that the ability to use manacles as an improvised club without penalty is an ability at 10th level is weird - but after two levels you actually do what you are supposed to so giving up the class isn't a problem. Also comes with cool art.

Kensai: Gives the BAB of a Cleric. Check. Sneak Attack? No. Spells? No. Suck? Definately.

Knight of the Chalice: These guys have been nerfed since their original write-up where they weren't any good. Bizzare.

Knight Protector: These guys have been nerfed too. They aren't very good any more. And the class is harder to qualify for. Instead of showing up in most powergaming builds for Fighters - this class will show up in none of them.

Master Thrower: Like the Exotic Weapon Master, this "class" is actually a short list of feats that are exclusive to itself. Some are good, some are the suck. I like the one where you get to negate people's dex against your thrown weapon attacks pretty much all the time.

Master of the Unseen Hand: It's a class for Githyanki to kill people with Telekinetic Kung Fu. Really weird, and hard to evaluate - but not really all that good.

Mindspy: A class for Doppelgangers to anticipate your technique and beat you with it. It doesn't really do anything until 4th level, at which point you retroactively get +4 to attacks and AC and some other minor benefits. Makes for a cool monster, actually.

Nature's Warrior: One of the abilities you get is Tumble: 3 times a day. I'm not kidding. This class blows - although the special effects budget for its powers are intense.

Occult Slayer: Five levels in and you still can't kill wizards worth a crap. I don't understand why anyone thought writing this class was a good idea.

Order of the Bow Initiate: This class has been severely nerfed - especially in the later levels. But it still gives Close Combat Shot at 2nd level, so who cares?

Purple Dragon Knight: This class becomes better in direct proportion to how many friends you have. Actually, it still never gets all that great - but it's not all the bad in a regular 4 person party either. Like any other Fighter - but you yell more.

Rage Mage: At first it sounds like a contradiction... but then you realize that you are getting half spellcasting progression and a cleric BAB for a character who is already multiclassed Barbarian/Sorcerer - and you realize that it actually is a contradiction.

Ravager: These guys still suck.

Reaping Mauler: If for some reason you wanted to be an unarmed grappler and didn't have Improved Grapple by 5th or 6th level, this one level PrC steps right in and fixes that. Bizzare.

Ronin: This class only gives you abilities for the first two levels. The first level also comes with a disadvantage (nobels don't trust you) - but in 2 levels you pick up +2 BAB and the ability to trade AC for Attack Bonus at 1 for 1 when charging. Great for Power Attack/Spirited Charge builds.

Spellsword:The first level gives +1 BAB and a Spellcaster level and a minor ability. The second level gives +1 BAB and a bonus feat. The third level gives +1 BAB and Spellcaster Level and a bonus feat. The fourth level.... you don't take the fourth level.

Stonelord: Every Level you get to benefit from one obscure Clerical Spell that you could actually just know and prepare if you had been a Cleric instead. This class is sucktastic.

Tattooed Monk: 5 blank levels and down 3 BAB in a ten level class. Suck!

Thayan Knight: Good for three or four levels or so. The Thayan Knights seem like a fairly decent order actually.

War Chanter: Just like a Bard. Complete with empty levels and puffy pants. But you don't even get spells.

War Shaper: This class has potential. It's a lot better than the Shifter, because it always adds to whatever shapechanging you already had. But it's still a combat-only class that gives 3 BAB in 5 levels, and is thus not good.

The feats I am not amazingly impressed by. There is some interesting conceptual design here (mixed bag feats that grant bonuses in several obscure situations) - but the implementation is not all that great. There are like two pages worth of feats that only function if you are doing something retarded like two weapon fighting Axe and Dagger - and none of them are good.

There are some new spells that suck, because most of them are Hexblade Spells or unique to the Courage Domain - and no player character is ever going to have them.

There are some Guardian Familiars - familiars that cost a feat and are made just like Golems. And aren't as good as Golems or Cohorts - so I don't know what the point is supposed to be. It's like the power of shit and the power of obsolescence combined to form a bunch of stupid crap noone cares about.

note:Then there's some cool campaign brainstorming stuff, which is actually worth reading. Read this shit.

Then there's some stuff about sporting combat - this is dumb.

There are some 3.5 write ups for a couple of 3rd edition obscure magic items. They don't generally do anything exciting and tend to be overpriced. I like the Exploding enchantment for reach weapons - more power for no reason is nice. These don't look well thought out, and only a few are going to be fun - but the list is short.

There are some special materials. While Pandemonic Silver has a deeply special effect, these materials are pretty much dumb - especially from a game mechanics point of view.

Then there is about 2 pages of good advice about playing in a campaign with no spellcasters - and then 5 pages of stupid organizations which have already been printed. The nine pages after that are all about the things that gets Andy hard - stupid unbalanced Epic Rules and extra Gods noone gives a crap about.

Then we turn to a list of extra Exotic Weapons - which are uninspired and not that great.

And that's the whole book.

-Username17
Draco_Argentum
Duke
Posts: 2434
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Draco_Argentum »

No love for the PrC section. Thanks for the rundown.
User avatar
Count Arioch the 28th
King
Posts: 6172
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I mostly agree with Frank myself, except i have the opposite opinion on the Hexblade. Hexblade spells may be cast in light armor with no ASF anyway, and since most people take a chain shirt for armor anyway, I don't see the problem with ASF at all.

The Samurai and the Duelist are just crap. Samurai can be replaced with 3 so-so feats that no one would take anywya because they suck.

And I llike the PrCs for the most part, but I'm not as picky about PrCs either, since I was going to change them anyway. (Not saying there isn't problems with them, just that I don't care about problems in something I was going to modify anyway, even if I allowed them in my game.)

I do happen to like the feats though, that's mostly why I wanted the book.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
Tae_Kwon_Dan
Journeyman
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Tae_Kwon_Dan »

Are the Style Feats solely for two-weapon fighting or do they have feats for other Styles?

While THF and Sword and Board don't need a power-up, some nice one handed fighting feats would be cool for a 7 seas type environment.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Username17 »

There's one for fighting with just a halberd - it gives you a bonus attack with the butt of your weapon at -5 to hit that does hardly any damage and gives you +1 dodge bonus to your AC. It costs one feat to get it, and costs another feat because you need Two Weapon Fighting - which you have no earthly reason to have if you are fighting with a halberd (also requires Combat Reflexes - which is pasable if you are a 3.5 Trip Fighter, and Weapon Focus: Halberd).

There's also a fighting style feat for fighting with a quarter staff. If you use expertise, and you are attacking people with a quarterstaff - you get +2 dodge bonus to AC. I'm still trying to figure out how that is even close to as good as Shield Expert/ Improved Shield Bash - as that feat would let you fight in the same way with a sword and shield - getting the +2 AC whether you were attacking or not. Anyway, this feat takes Combat Expertise, Dodge, Two Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff.

Basically, if I invest five feats into fighting with a simple weapon so crappy that they let Wizards get proficiency in it - I'm going to want more than the ability to sometimes get the same advantage as I would have had by fighting with a non-magical shield - which is something I could do at first level with no feats.

The only one of these which is anywhere close to good is "Net and Trident" - and that's just because there are some very real reasons to fight like that anyway. All the others just take a crappy fighting style (TWF with simple weapons or TWF with two unrelated martial weapons) and make it still suck after investing 4-6 feats in it.

The tactical feats, as I said are more interesting. Each gives you three abilities which are supposed to be large, rare bonuses. Some of them are instead large, common bonuses. Like the one that lets you increase the AC penalty for charging all the way up to your Base Attack Bonus - and then ignore that much to-hit penalty for Power Attack. Or the one that lets you redirect one attack each turn from a flanking enemy from you to the enemy they are flanking with. Others are just puzzling and dumb - like the one which only works if you take the full defense action while fighting an enemy two sizes larger than you - and then you waste some more time - and then you stand on your head - and at the end of it you get like +4 AC or the same as a bonus tohit.

But the tactical feats are a good idea. And with a lot of work it could be awesome.

The Divine feats are still dumb. They were dumb when first printed, and they are dumb now. Fundamentally, Clerics who have enough Charisma to get any use out of these don't run out of normal Turning Attampts ever. So these feats all either give bonuses which are worth a feat (in which case they are too much hassle to be worth while), bonuses which are worth less than a feat (in which case they are lame), or bonuses which are worth more than a feat (in which case they are overpowered). That's always been true, and seeing these feats again just reminds me of what a craptastical idea they were.

The general feats are mostly from Sword and Fist, Oriental Adventures, or the Forgotten Realms books (Phalanx Fighting is from Lords of Darkness, and it's still lame). Monkey Grip is still insulting, and still fundamentally inferior to Power Attack (even more so now that Andy has made Power Attack twice as good). Power Criical has been changed so that it is no longer good.

Some of these feats you'd take - like Karmic Strike for instance, but it's nothing new, and I'm not impressed by any of the new design work in this part.

-Username17
Thoth_Amon
Journeyman
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Thoth_Amon »

Thanks for the breakdown. I got this book, but it was a "yes I can get it if we wrap it up and stick it under the tree deal" becasue I already exceeded by Quota for the month.

So my feedback must wait two weeks more...

TA
Galahad_Knight
1st Level
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Galahad_Knight »

The Complete warrior offers a line of "Bastard" weapons. Exotic in one hand, martial in both. They have hammer, rapier, and pick cersons that are all fairly predictable and all kinda lame in the same way that waraxes and bastard swords are.

They cost a feat and you get 1 point of damage. Big whoop.

But there's another interesting one in there, the Warmace.
It's schtick?
Also a bastard weapon, but it does 1d12 damage with a plain x2 crit. For some reason it also gives you a -1 to your AC

Is THIS weapon wirth the feat?
You spend a feat, you get +2 to damage. But, do the lowered threat range and AC penalty make it suck?

I could see this being a weapon of choice amongst undead-hunting clerics. Most undead don't have very high to-hits, so the AC penalty doesn't matter, and being immune to crits, the lowered critical is not an issue either.
Same goes for construct-hunters
User avatar
Essence
Knight-Baron
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Olympia, WA

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Essence »

Honestly, if I wanted +2 damage that bad, I'd take four fighter levels and Weapon Spec. Or a Barbarian level and get it right now, once per day.

Spending a feat on -1 to my AC isn't ever going to happen, unless it comes with the ability to cast Wail of the Banshee as an SLA at will.



Essence
Galahad_Knight
1st Level
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Galahad_Knight »

LOL, well for me it would depend on thew character.

If you plan on being a weapon and shield user, then a -1 to AC isn't that big of a deal, just use a heavy shield and you still come out ahead.
Plus of course, the weapon stacks with specialization, so you can have both :wink:

But I don't think it's worth it for most people.

Mainly a traditional undead-bashing weapon & shield cleric would benefit from this.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Username17 »

Most undead don't have very high to-hits, so the AC penalty doesn't matter


This makes no logical sense. Proportionately, each point of AC penalty matters more when your opponent has a bad chance to hit you than it does when they have a good chance to hit you.

Consider, if they would hit you on a 19 or 20 - they now hit you on an 18, 19, or 20 - 3 numbers instead of 2. If you were going to last 30 rounds in melee, now you were going to last only 20. If they were going to hit you on a 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20 - you now get hit on a 15+ - for 6 numbers instead of 5. In the same example, you would have lasted 12 rounds - now you last only 10.

The point is: the number of rounds you survive the melee is cut by a larger margin - both proportionately and actually - when you already had a high AC relative to their attack bonus than the other way.

A penalty to AC is worse when confronted with opponents with crappy attack bonuses.

The Warmace chews and is an example of people having bad math skills. It does 1 more point of damage than the Bastard Sword and criticals half as often. Assuming that you are fighting opponents who can be criticalled - you are looking at a breakpoint of +15.5 damage. That may sound like a lot, but it's really not. If your total damage bonuses are +15.5 or more, which they invariably are at high levels - you'd be doing more damage just with the extra criticals (that's before we throw in the doubled bonus the Bastard Sword gets from Keen Weapon - which drops the breakpoint to five and a half points - which by that point is probably less than your strength bonus).

In the long run, it's less damage than the other weapons, and has a serious disadvantage which is slanted to screw you more agains the enemies it is supposedly geared towards.

-Username17
Galahad_Knight
1st Level
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Galahad_Knight »

True enough. As I said, it looked good for fighting constructs and undead, but probably wasn't ideal.
User avatar
Maj
Prince
Posts: 4705
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Shelton, Washington, USA

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Maj »

As the party's AC fiend (she who can never have a high enough AC), I would only ever consider taking a feat that dropped my character's AC if it increased my survivablity - like say, by giving me an extra attack, and even then, I'd like it to come with the ability to choose whether or not it's activated.

Not for crap +2 damage. No way in hell.
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
User avatar
Josh_Kablack
King
Posts: 5318
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Online. duh

Re: Mace-Chucks yo!!

Post by Josh_Kablack »

But both Dropping a weapon and Quick Drawing a weapon are free actions. So why exactly would you ever actually take the -1 to AC with this weapon..?

As it is a partial-two handed weapon, you can already abuse the 3.5 Power Attack grip-shifting weapon juggle trick with it.

For true finesse, shell out for a Glove of Storing and have a round full of free-action madness.

My vote is for really crappy design on that one.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
User avatar
Essence
Knight-Baron
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Olympia, WA

Re: Mace-Chucks yo!!

Post by Essence »

I'm not familiar with the Power-Attack grip-shifting routine. Can you explain it a bit for me?

Thank you!


Essence
User avatar
Josh_Kablack
King
Posts: 5318
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Online. duh

Re: Mace-Chucks yo!!

Post by Josh_Kablack »

It hinges on the assumption that with quick draw you can not only draw a weapon as a free action, but shift from a one handed to a two handed grip as a free action.

Since dropping a weapon is also a free action, and since you can do free actions in the middle of another action, and since attack rolls are made before damage rolls (thus attack penalties are applied before damage bonuses), if this assumption holds, then it is possible to get the sweet x2 damage effect from Andy's Crazy Power Attack to each and every one of the attacks in your two weapon fighting full attack routine - so long as you are willing to throw each but the final weapon away (or return to a glove of storing) after you use it in a single attack.

I have previously suggested that Andy Collins must be an 8-bit theater fan, as this is a clear mechanical incentive to tie your swords together by the hilts (allowing them to be retrived after dropping) and fight sword-chuck style. That's right, Andy was cribbing 3.5 design ideas from Fighter. :bored:
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
Machine_Kiss
NPC
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Machine_Kiss »

The book is definitely worth it.

Primarily because I am finding a ton of uses for the core class, PrC's, and feats in build "dips" and special niche uses for specialized characters.

The Hexblade, Samurai, & Swashbuckler all have decent dip benefits in build prefixes. Although I sure as hell would not take 20 levels in any of them.

Only a small percentage of the PrC's warrant attention for being either abuseable, well-thought-out, or worthwhile beyond a minor dip.

5 levels of War Chanter nets you the awesome abilities of Inspire Recklessness and Combine Songs. Decreasing AC to boost attack rolls by a significant margin is a HUGE ability when it comes to assisting your party combatants who rely on key special combat tactics such as tripping, disarming, or grappling. And the Combine Songs ability totally rocks when using any Bard Song combined with the Suggestion Song as your multi-tasking "offensive" contribution to your party. A Bard15/WarChanter5 gets 4 attacks, 5th level spells, and the aforementioned Bard Song to compliment his other singing abilities.

Other PrC's worth at least a minor investment are the Dervish, revised SpellSword, Ronin, Invisible Blade, Pruple Dragon Knight, & Exotic Weapon Master.

Sadly, the revised Bladesinger is horrible, especially in comparison to the already twice revised Bladesinger found in the RoF book - the clincher is the icky version of Song of Celerity. The revised OotBI, Drunken Master, & Tattoed Monk are also worsened to the point of being not worth even a dip. For a number of the PrC's, I'm really shocked at how some of the base mechanics of the granted class abilities do not mesh *at all* with the associated PrC pre-requisites and theoretical progressions. I sense some of the PrC's were either rush jobs or not playtested properly.

Anyway, got to run. :bolt:
Tae_Kwon_Dan
Journeyman
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Tae_Kwon_Dan »

Ugh, I got a look at the swashbuckler. Any class that tries to convince me being able to take 10 on stressful tumble and jump checks, at 13th frickin level, is a "you must be shitting me" class.

Who designed that damn thing? :disgusted:
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Complete Warrior

Post by Username17 »

Who designed that damn thing?


The same person who thought it was a great idea for Shapechange to grant Supernatural abilities after saying that some abilities were made Supernatural because they wouldn't be game balanced if they were transfered to other creatures.

-Username17
Post Reply