ECL Adjustment Feedback

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Thoth_Amon
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ECL Adjustment Feedback

Post by Thoth_Amon »

I just want to know what is wrong with this idea for addressing the problems I have with ECL. I hate that ECL characters are basically screwed as ECL levels are rarely as good as regular character levels and the abilities are usually decent at low levels, but become useless at higher levels when you are paying a larger cost in terms of XP punishment.

I have considered instead of ECL, using a flat XP cost, but this doesn't really work, buecause it will kill you at lower levels and be insignificant at higher levels.

I like a sliding scale, the problem is my formula for making it work makes 1st edition THACO look like connect four.

It is subjective and cumbersome. And it would have to be re-calibrated for various ECLS +1, +2, +3, +4, etc.

Maybe the XP for the next level should be calculated as follows for various XP based upon my subjective estimates:

Standard + (Level * ECL * 400)

So the progressions stack up like this:

Code: Select all

	Table 1. ECL - XP Chart					[br]	xp	ECL +2	TA +1	TA +2	TA +3	TA +4[br]1	0	0	0	0	0	0[br]2	1000	6000	1,800	2,600	3,400	4,200[br]3	3000	10,000	4,200	5,400	6,600	7,800[br]4	6000	15,000	7,600	9,200	10,800	12,400[br]5	10,000	21,000	12,000	14,000	16,000	18,000[br]6	15,000	28,000	17,400	19,800	22,200	24,600[br]7	21,000	36,000	23,800	26,600	29,400	32,200[br]8	28,000	45,000	31,200	34,400	37,600	40,800[br]9	36,000	55,000	39,600	43,200	46,800	50,400[br]10	45,000	66,000	49,000	53,000	57,000	61,000[br]11	55,000	78,000	59,400	63,800	68,200	72,600[br]12	66,000	91,000	70,800	75,600	80,400	85,200[br]13	78,000	105,000	83,200	88,400	93,600	98,800[br]14	91,000	120,000	96,600	102,200	107,800	113,400[br]15	105,000	136,000	111,000	117,000	123,000	129,000[br]16	120,000	153,000	126,400	132,800	139,200	145,600[br]17	136,000	171,000	142,800	149,600	156,400	163,200[br]18	153,000	190,000	160,200	167,400	174,600	181,800[br]19	171,000	210,000	178,600	186,200	193,800	201,400[br]20	190,000	231,000	198,000	206,000	214,000	222,000[br][br]The second column is regular ECL.[br]Where is says TA in the header, substitute TA-ECL in your mind.[br]



The 400 can be adjusted to match how useful you think ECL races are. 250 if you think they are heavliy underpowered and 600 if you think they are the real deal.

What is wrong with this option?

Thanks,

TA
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Re: ECL Adjustment Feedback

Post by Username17 »

This math really is very hard to follow. And the worst part is the part you have not even addressed - which is how fast the characters are intended to accumulate XP once you ahve determined how much they have. After all, if a Tiefling is still generating XP at the same rate with 7 levels of wizard that a Gray Elf is getting when he reaches 8th level - then it really doesn't matter what kind of XP hole people are in to begin with - it's only going down hill from here.

Let's face it - ECL just doesn't work. You can screw around with the XP costs involved - but the fact remains that you are giving people non-level based power in a level-based system and expecting to charge people fairly for it and you can't.

Wizards get power, but they also get hit points, BAB, Skills, and all kinds of other crap that isn't more raw powerTM. That's because they are in a level-based system, and people are required to diversify a certain minimum amount to pass Go and collect $200.

Now, If I instead start play as an Ethergaunt - I start with 5 hit dice and 9 spellcaster levels of Wizard. I also get some wicked wild stuff which is honestly just being more wizardly. So we could set that some sort of ECL, and it would either be too high, too low, or just right.

But so what? Even if we set it "just right" - we still have just taken a character and allowed them to trade their background stuff - their saves, their hit points, their skill rank maximums - for more raw powerTM. And the whole point of a level based system is to make that impossible.

You can't save the ECL system - it fails the fundamental test of what can and cannot be balanced in a level based system.

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Thoth_Amon
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Re: ECL Adjustment Feedback

Post by Thoth_Amon »

But people still want to play Ethergaunts!

Standard + (Level * ECL * 400)

This math is as easy as I can make it and address the problems I have with ECL. And once I find the value I like for the static cost, I can generate the tables in excel, clip them and put them in my DMG and there is no more math.

I was not so much trying to fix it as I was trying to smooth the curve of how much a character was screwed for taking an ECL race. You can exploit my system by simply knowing the effective duration of the campaign you are going to be in and what level you are going to start at. Then you can pick an ECL that maximizes the benefits vs the XP cost over the levels involved.

That is the main problem for me. It is supposed to smooth the ECL over the lifetime of a 20 level character. With a "slider" for the DM to use depending on how much they want using non standard races to cost. This way the "Savage Species mentality" where any ECL is screwed so that standard races can rule can be upheld by using an 800xp point baseline. And you can also support "Monster World" where ECL races dominate due to the cheap cost of taking on by dropping the staic XP cost to 250.

Thanks for the feedback Frank. You are right, but I still think I might like it better than the ECL that came with the book! :-)

TA
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Essence
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Re: ECL Adjustment Feedback

Post by Essence »

TA: I like your idea far better than Savage Species solution, and if for some reason the idea below doesn't work out for me, I'll probably adopt your way of doing things. :wink:


Having said that, how does this solution strike all of y'all:

If the two big problems with ECL are:
1) It is overvalued (i.e. characters with large LAs are too weak)
2) It fails the balance test by not following the rules of a level-based system (i.e. you don't register as being the level you are "supposed to be" at the time.)

then the obvious solution to me is:

ECL HD!

Every point of LA a monster has grants it one ECL HD. An ECL HD comes with
a d6 HD
a rogue's BAB
4+Int skill points to spend on the monster's species skill list
three "middle" saves (see below)
no class features.

Middle saves go like this:
1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 9, 9 (9, 10, 10...)

The 'class features' of ECL HD are whatever abilities the creature had that gave it it's LA to begin with. Thus, if a creature has 2 LA worth of unbalanced stats, 1 LA worth of winged flight, and 1 LA worth of spell-like abilities, the creature gets 4 ECL HD, and begins play with as many HD as a normal character of it's total ECL.

This simultaenously eliminates the problems of having a huge LA (your HP, BAB, and saves suck the hind tit), and prevents the level-based system from breaking (because you still have as many HD as your ECL, so you register correctly to all level-dependent effects).

Of course, you might need to make minor adjustments if your experience with ECL creatures leads you to believe that they need a d4 or d8 HD to get them to balance correctly. But I think this solution is the best available in terms of balancing high-ECL characters and in terms of keeping the system self-consistent.

Thoughts?


Essence
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Re: ECL Adjustment Feedback

Post by Username17 »

But people still want to play Ethergaunts!


Then assign some character class that gives hit dice, skills, saving throws, special abilities, and saving throws that has them being an Ether Gaunt. That's the only way that it can be balanced to play one in a level-based system. Period.

This math is as easy as I can make it and address the problems I have with ECL. And once I find the value I like for the static cost, I can generate the tables in excel, clip them and put them in my DMG and there is no more math.


Yes there is - because these characters still have to get XP. When a 6th level character is part of a 4 person party and helps overcome a CR 7 encounter they get 675 XP. When a 7th level character is in the same party they get 525 XP for the same encounter. When an Aasimar with 21,000 XP and 6 class levels participates in that encounter, they get... what?

That's the single most important question of ECL and you haven't even begun to answer it.

Not that it makes any difference at all.

If I'm a Wizard, I would like to get Spellcaster Levels faster instead of gaining whole levels that each come with a single spellcaster level. And so on for other classes. How many XP and levels and stuff would I have to give up to be "worth" getting 3 caster levels? 2 levels worth perhaps? Certainly not more than that - as with more I could have just gotten the spellcaster levels with the levels attached.

The true answer, however, is that no number of levels being sacrificed for class advanacement is ever fair. As soon as you find a degree of class advancement that is equal in value to some group of levels you've just allowed someone to violate the strictures of the level-based system. In short, everyone is playing level-based - except the ECL character who is min/maxing with a poin system. And that's not fair.

To actually allow people to gain abilities instead of levels, you'd have to remove the level structure for everyone - and simpy let people get abilities. I've played those systems, and usually everyone ends up as various kinds of egg-shells with hammers - or as a pile of suck. After all, I've never seen a fantasy point system where diversity was rewarded in any meaningful way. If you have to buy your Fireball and your Lightning Bot seperately, there's just no reason to have a Lightning Bolt with half the points and a fireball with half the points when oyu could just sink all the points into the lightning bolt or the fireball.

Your ECL system doesn't work. I could run through some numbers on how it falls down in power comparisons with specific monsters - but it makes no difference. No ECL system can work. You can let people take levels of Dragon that come with hit dice and abilities - but taking abilities instead of levels can't ever be fair under any circumstances.

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Re: ECL Adjustment Feedback

Post by Username17 »

Thoughts?


This could work. It's similar to something from the Final Fantasy d20 rules....

Final Fantasy d20 Rules wrote:Races with Level Requirements Some races, such as Lamia or Giants, are very powerful. They have abilities that far exceed the bonuses of a Nyako or a Human. In these cases, players of such races will have a Level Requirement. The Level Requirement is the minimum number of NPC class levels a creature can have.

For example: a Lilith is a very powerful creature. It has a very large bonus to Wisdom and Constitution, and has a number of special abilities - including starting with the Blue Mage discipline of [Lamia], poisonous fangs, and Mana Drain. It has a Level Requirement of 7, which means every Lilith must have at least 7 levels of Gray Mage, Expert, or Warrior. (Note that several of the Lilith's abilities only really apply if they take levels of Gray Mage, so they are almost certainly going to begin play with several levels of Gray Mage).

Thus: Your Lilith character can't take a level of Black Mage or Archer before you've had 7 levels of NPC classes. And you can't play your Lilith character in a game which is starting below 7th level.

Note for players of 3rd edition D&D or 3.5 D&D: The concepts of "Effective Character Level Modifier" and "Level Allowance" simply do not exist in Final Fantasy d20.


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da_chicken
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Re: ECL Adjustment Feedback

Post by da_chicken »

The easiest way to do it is to just use your type's HD for ECL levels. So drow get 2 *cough*1*cough* humanoid hit dice, tieflings get 1 outsider hit die, etc.

Edit: M'kay... not irritated, but whateva.
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Essence
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Re: ECL Adjustment Feedback

Post by Essence »

The reason I picked a fairly neutral HD to be the "ECL HD" is to avoid the problem that your idea creates, da: if you hand out simply more of whatever HD the monster already has, it makes things like high-LA Dragons and Outsiders WAAY more uber than high-LA giants and plants. Which is obviously not the intent.


Essence
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