3.0 Haste

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Jack_Lurch
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3.0 Haste

Post by Jack_Lurch »

Is there some reason I shouldn't still be using 3.0 Haste? We switched mainly to 3.5 spells, but the party magic users are petitioning to have 3.0 Haste, and I can understand why. Is there a legit reason to deny them?

-Jack
Ramnza
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Re: 3.0 Haste

Post by Ramnza »

3.0 haste is clearly better. I guess the only problem you might encoutner is the possibility that other spells might be up for switching. You guys should sit down and clearly specify which version everyone would perfer so that it doesn't keep on popping up. My gaming party did the same thing. fbmf even posted them on a website for us to make reference to.

resistance is futile:borg:
Username17
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Re: 3.0 Haste

Post by Username17 »

3.0 Haste is worthless until you get enough spell slots to make the "ability" to cast 2 spells per round at the cost of one of your 3rd level slots into a meaningful enterprise. That happens around 10th level, at which point, 3.0 Haste becomes a straight powerup for Wizards for fully one whole level until it becomes in all ways overshadowed by the 3.0 Mass Haste.

So honestly, I don't really see 3.0 Haste as worth learning - unless you are either really anti-social or don't expect to play past 10th level in any case.

Here's the anti-Haste argument though, and in its way it's pretty strong:

If you play Straight Core Classes out of the book, Fighters Suck. Not just Fighters, but also Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, and Monks. And not right away, either (except Monks). As each of those classes goes up in level - their ability density per level goes down.

By the time you reach 10th level, any of the straight classed warriors are essentially unable to contribute at all unless they have been handed magical weaponry grotesquely out of proportion to their level by the DM to compensate.

And that's where Wizards start being able to really use Haste.

So right about where Fighters pretty much stop getting meaningful abilities - Wizards are getting their first iterative attack - which helps them enormously. If you were trying to balance things to the Fighter - you'd have to take 3.0 Haste away. There is simply no way you can match the concept of diminishing returns (which is how the Fighter is written) with "cast an extra spell per round" - it just isn't happening.

Of course, you'd also want to make sure that each new level of spell had worse spells than the one before it, because that's how Fighter feat accumulation works (you get the ones you want most first, and then start backfilling your second choices at a slower rate).

-Username17
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fbmf
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Re: 3.0 Haste

Post by fbmf »

Ramnza wrote:
fbmf even posted them on a website for us to make reference to.


I am listed as the proprietor of the site, so it's a valid assumption that I maintain it, but that's actually Incarnadine's doing. I just send her the updates that I want posted.

I would hate for my PGG to think she wasn't getting proper credit. :wink:

Game On,
fbmf
ambersloan
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Re: 3.0 Haste

Post by ambersloan »


I have always despised 3.0 haste,and 3.5 does not make it better.Like Frank said,if it was an effort to balance
characters -fighter vs. MUser-it failed miserably.Fbmf
has helped me play some RPGA scenarios .Now,RPGA
scenarios do hand fighters outrageous magic stuff to
try and balance out the incredibly broken MUser
PC's.but I can still remember 3.0 Haste just about killing
the usefulness of boots of speed,or even bunny slippers of speed for that matter.It makes you want to go back
to first edition,of which fbmf regales me with many interesting stories.
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fbmf
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Re: 3.0 Haste

Post by fbmf »

I have never played in a 1st Edition game. I've only been gaming since 1990.

Game On,
fbmf
ambersloan
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Re: 3.0 Haste

Post by ambersloan »


Hmmm...Well,if it wasn't fbmf it was somebody who looked a lot like him.
Ramnza
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Re: 3.0 Haste

Post by Ramnza »

Like his dad...:confused:
ambersloan
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Re: 3.0 Haste

Post by ambersloan »


Other than the obvious-haste ,along with many other spells was "ruined" going from second to third edition
and was bitched about already many moons ago.The
relevant thread is 3.0 to 3.5 haste difference.Apologies for recalling some of fbmf's war stories and deviating from that.
Username17
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Re: 3.0 Haste

Post by Username17 »

How was it ruined going from 2nd to 3rd?

In 2nd edition, and earlier, it caused aging - a cost which is like a credit card. You buy it now, but you don't pay until later.

In fact, in any campaign there is a finite amount of aging your character can sustain without suffering any adverse effects at all - which means that the Aging effect is a free ride to newly introduced characters and a carefully considered cost to organically introduced characters.

So Aging, and thus by extension Haste from pre-3rd edition rules - was horrible game design. Whether or not the 3rd edition version was overpowered compared to other available abilities depended upon your play style. But previous Haste versions were always unbalanced with respect to themselves - the spell was variably powerful in the hands of supposedly identical characters based on previous character history.

Old Haste failed the first game balance test - the one you do before you even consider the other abilities that a character of that level can have.

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da_chicken
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Re: 3.0 Haste

Post by da_chicken »

IMX 3.0 haste made the game terribly not fun. At some point, everybody just has it. 'Cause you're gonna lose if you don't. Take a look at City of the Spider Queen. Every spellcaster has haste, and most non-spellcasters of merit have some way to get it. The spell fails the 3.0 feat test. It becomes increasingly (and exponentially) more powerful as level increases (making the spell increasingly less balanced). 2 2nd levels spells/round isn't that big of a deal. 2 7th level spells will wipe out a couple people. At 5th level, the spell is about as powerful as other 3rd level spells. At 15th level, the spell is far, far better than an 8th level spell.

Like Frank says, the spell is fine when you're limited to about 10th level (oddly enough, where 80% of 3.0 betatesting took place).

3.5 haste is still a good spell. Easily the best buff at or below 3rd level. It's just not total pwnage anymore.
Username17
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Re: 3.0 Haste

Post by Username17 »

da chicken wrote:The spell fails the 3.0 feat test. It becomes increasingly (and exponentially) more powerful as level increases (making the spell increasingly less balanced).


Then the feat test is retarded - even Weapon Focus fails that.

+1 to-hit is worth an average of .05 * average damage * critical multiplier * number of attacks in damage per turn. Not only does that rise significantly, but it in fact gets remultiplied when you gain additional attacks or have your threat range increase - things which happen naturally as you rise in level.

Therefore, weapon focus becomes increasingly more powerful as level increases - supposedly making it less balanced. Any test by which weapon focus is too powerful to be balanced needs its head examined right now.

--

3.0 Haste is something which, like items that grant resistance bonuses to saves, everyone has at high level. This does not make it unbalanced and doesn't make the game not fun. It just means that walking out as a 17th level character with no Haste bonus is like walking out as a 17th level Fighter with a non-magical weapon. Part of the game is that eventually you get your Haste effect and can do more in a round - just like part of the game is that your BAB goes up and you get more attacks in a round.

That something is "must have" only means it is broken if people also have to give up things to get it. By the time Haste goes from "a stupid pet trick" to "something you must have" - the cost is also negligible. It is therefore no more or less ungamebalanced than the extra attack people get for having a BAB of +11 or the +1 stat bonus they get at twelfth level.

-Username17
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