Climate Change

[Kaelik]

New IPCC report dropped. Turns out, we are definitely going to have WAY the fuck more warming then 2 degrees. The full report isn't out yet, and they don't like to be too exact in predictions, but based on the last report, billions more people will die at 3 degrees then 1.5 degrees. So:



If you advocate for anything less then insanely radical changes in the very near term, you are advocating for killing billions of people.

[GnomeWorks]

I think confiscating every private jet and thereafter banning private air travel would be a good start and something I'd gladly support.

But if you tell me the solution is to "eat the bugs," you can come attempt to make me do so at gunpoint.

[Thaluikhain]

We still seems to be pretty far aware from measures that would have been insufficient 30-40 years ago, I don't expect radical changes any time soon. Except fascism as a response to disasters.

(And while I don't like the nostalgia for past eras, as a rule (there's been lots of social and technological improvement, hard earned and of great importance), between the end of the Cold War and the beginning of the GWOT, when Nazis seemed only to appear in movies and history books, and global warming was a problem but there was time to address it...that had a certain charm I didn't appreciate at the time)

[PseudoStupidity]

I love how all the things that would combat temperature rise make for a better world and we still won't do it. We need to stay the course or else Jeff Bezos won't be able to get a third, bigger yacht that requires his yacht-supported yacht to support.

[MGuy]

I think confiscating every private jet and thereafter banning private air travel would be a good start and something I'd gladly support.

But if you tell me the solution is to "eat the bugs," you can come attempt to make me do so at gunpoint.

For one you're already essentially eating the bug, metaphorically if not literally, and confiscating private jets is great for show but doesn't at all get at the heart of the disaster we're facing.

One of the biggest contributors to waste making it into the environment is America's massive military and we can't even get politicians to make a dent in the 'growth' of it's budget. The likelihood that America gives up any of is guns before the climate ruins them is a pipe dream.

[Kaelik]

In fact more bigger guns to shoot all the refugees from other countries is basically the entire US strategy.

Eating bugs is mostly not necessary now, but it will be necessary as we continue with the same failed policies of more tax cuts for oil companies until we live on a mostly unihabitable wasteball. The solution if you don't want to eat bugs is:

1) Seize land in cities from the rich people who own houses, bulldoze their houses and build walkable cities with cars limited and excluded including dense apartment complexes which can house more people, these buildings are fully electrified and have up to date heat pump systems for climate control.

1a) Probably just straight up pay people to move into these places and set up either local jobs (including public transit locality) or remote jobs.

2) Just go around replacing everyone's stoves and AC/boilers everywhere you aren't moving people out of en mass.

3) Seize the oil/gas/coal companies and all their assets and wind down production instead of greenlighting more production everywhere all the time.

4) Invest a lot more state resources into just building renewable infastructure without trying to do it with more tax credits that end up going to fossil fuel companies anyway.

5) electrify stuff that has to drive on roads (garbage trucks, busses, truck good transport) and also private cars for the very small number of people who actually need them. Definitely ban electric SUVs and shit like that.

6) If you are the US, spend like 30 times as much money 30 times faster then "you" need to to meet climate goals, because you are using your vast stolen resources to test, develop, and proof of concept climate intervention for the rest of the world who will copy your good stuff that you make open source because you care more about saving the planet then profits for shareholders.

[GnomeWorks]

For one you're already essentially eating the bug, metaphorically if not literally, and confiscating private jets is great for show but doesn't at all get at the heart of the disaster we're facing.

My understanding is that those private jets output an absurd amount of CO2, and given how often these assholes feel the need to fly themselves to some climate change summit or other (or WEF meetings), it isn't a drop in the bucket. Besides: fuck 'em.

One of the biggest contributors to waste making it into the environment is America's massive military and we can't even get politicians to make a dent in the 'growth' of it's budget. The likelihood that America gives up any of is guns before the climate ruins them is a pipe dream.

You're conflating two things, here: the American military, and personal firearm ownership.

The military budget is absurd, yes. The amount of money that DOD "consultants" get for doing fuck-all is stupid, and I should know, I worked in that industry for a minute. I would absolutely be open to reform there, and even slimming down of the DOD's budget a bit. I'm not sure about how much they contribute to waste production, but I can imagine it's probably gross, and I'd be open to toning that down.

But personal gun ownership isn't a problem.

In fact more bigger guns to shoot all the refugees from other countries is basically the entire US strategy.

Funny, we seem to be teeming with these refugees and they all seem to be doing fairly well on the taxpayer's dime. Maybe we're shooting them overseas? But then I'd ask what the fuck we're doing in other peoples' backyards, because we shouldn't be. We aren't the world police.

Seize land in cities from the rich people who own houses, bulldoze their houses and build walkable cities with cars limited and excluded including dense apartment complexes which can house more people, these buildings are fully electrified and have up to date heat pump systems for climate control.

Man was not meant to live like an ant. 15-minute cities are a fucking terrible idea, and I will not live in one.

Just go around replacing everyone's stoves and AC/boilers everywhere you aren't moving people out of en mass.

And here I thought "they're coming for your stove" was just supposed to be a dumb meme?

Seize the oil/gas/coal companies and all their assets and wind down production instead of greenlighting more production everywhere all the time.

And replace that energy production with what, exactly? Solar and wind aren't at production levels to replace them wholesale, not to mention the infrastructure you'd need to actually do that (power storage is the obvious concern).

Now if you said "amp up nuclear, aiming for thorium salt and/or fusion," I'd be down with that.

Invest a lot more state resources into just building renewable infastructure without trying to do it with more tax credits that end up going to fossil fuel companies anyway.

Fixing our crumbling infrastructure is absolutely necessary. I presume "renewable infrastructure" should be read as "infrastructure for renewable energy," which -- yes, would be necessary if we went that route, but I'm not sure it can be done on the scales we need. Energy-dense power storage is expensive, and you need that when you're talking solar, wind, and even hydro.

electrify stuff that has to drive on roads (garbage trucks, busses, truck good transport) and also private cars for the very small number of people who actually need them. Definitely ban electric SUVs and shit like that.

lol. lmao.

Though yes, electric SUVs are idiotic. I heard about a guy who bought one and was surprised it would take almost a week to fully charge on a 110v line. And that's relevant because it makes the "electric trucks for good transport" the obvious failure of a take that it is. There might be other solutions to moving cargo across the US that doesn't involve said trucks, but the trucks ain't gonna work.

If you are the US, spend like 30 times as much money 30 times faster then "you" need to to meet climate goals, because you are using your vast stolen resources to test, develop, and proof of concept climate intervention for the rest of the world who will copy your good stuff that you make open source because you care more about saving the planet then profits for shareholders.

Are you suggesting that companies should go against Supreme Court decisions?

[MGuy]

'Heart of the issue' meaning that private jets are a symptom of a greater issue and 'guns' in the military is being used in a metaphorical sense.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

Man was not meant to live like an ant. 15-minute cities are a fucking terrible idea, and I will not live in one.

Make a thread about this specifically. Tell us everything about 15 minute cities.

I personally want to know your hidden power levels on this one.

[violence in the media]

Man was not meant to live like an ant. 15-minute cities are a fucking terrible idea, and I will not live in one.

Make a thread about this specifically. Tell us everything about 15 minute cities.

I personally want to know your hidden power levels on this one.

I second this request.

[Kaelik]

You're conflating two things, here: the American military, and personal firearm ownership.

He's not conflating them. You are just on a hair trigger about your gun nut love and therefore read any mildly poetic criticism of the US military as actually about trying to take away your 14th rifle.

I'm not sure about how much they contribute to waste production, but I can imagine it's probably gross, and I'd be open to toning that down.

It is one of the top 60 emmitters in the world and more then 140 countries total output. (EDIT for clarification: The total outpot a country, but for 140 different countries individually, not 140 countries output, totalled.)

Funny, we seem to be teeming with these refugees and they all seem to be doing fairly well on the taxpayer's dime. Maybe we're shooting them overseas? But then I'd ask what the fuck we're doing in other peoples' backyards, because we shouldn't be. We aren't the world police.

I get that your a weirdo right wing racist or whatever, but for the rest of us operating in reality instead of delusion land, this just isn't true.

As of 2015 the US had .84 refugees per 1000 inhabitants which is lower then most countries and orders of magnitute lower then a lot of countries, and while many more refugees have been created since then, the US hasn't spent that time admitting more refugees then average countries. In 2019, the last year before we decided to turn every human away at the border we could to prevent them from introducing covid to our covidfree country (still the policy RIGHT NOW IN 2023) we accepted 341,711 refugees, which is not only a small rate relative to our population, but in fact smaller in absolute numbers then France, Kenya, Chas, DRC, Syrai, Ethiopia, Bangladesh, Iran, Sudan, Germany, Uganda, Lebanon, Pakistan, Jordan, and Turkey.

We objectively have very few refugees, most of the refugees create by US policies end up going to some other country that is also a victim of US policy, not the US.

Man was not meant to live like an ant. 15-minute cities are a fucking terrible idea, and I will not live in one.

Tell me more about how you hate having a grocery store nearby and that the optimal grocery store is very far away. Tell me about how public transit being ubiqitous and easy to use is a hardship against you personally. I want nothing more then to hear a rant about the illiminati trying to make things convient to pacify the masses.

And here I thought "they're coming for your stove" was just supposed to be a dumb meme?

I mean 1) They aren't coming for your stove. Because the US government's current climate policy is "more guns to shoot more refugees, drill baby drill." 2) Obviously replacing inferior polluting stoves that cause health problems and damage the enviroment with a free better stove is just a good thing the government should do. 3) Most of the US already has electric stoves! Especially in rural areas where it's easier to set up electric lines then electric and gas lines. The centers of gas stoves are New York and New Jersey! They can live with their shitty old stoves from 50s being replaced!

4) I cannot stress enough how much addressing climate change means actually doing things that will make someone somewhere mad. Possibly even THOUSANDS of people! Billions of lives are at stake! The liberal impulse to do nothing that will make anyone made and the conservative learned reaction to liberal incompetence of saying "you will make someone mad if you do that" to frustrate all progress are going to kill billions of people unless we overcome them.

And replace that energy production with what, exactly? Solar and wind aren't at production levels to replace them wholesale, not to mention the infrastructure you'd need to actually do that (power storage is the obvious concern).

...

Fixing our crumbling infrastructure is absolutely necessary. I presume "renewable infrastructure" should be read as "infrastructure for renewable energy," which -- yes, would be necessary if we went that route, but I'm not sure it can be done on the scales we need. Energy-dense power storage is expensive, and you need that when you're talking solar, wind, and even hydro.

Wonder if these too might be related in some way and tied together!

Though yes, electric SUVs are idiotic. I heard about a guy who bought one and was surprised it would take almost a week to fully charge on a 110v line. And that's relevant because it makes the "electric trucks for good transport" the obvious failure of a take that it is. There might be other solutions to moving cargo across the US that doesn't involve said trucks, but the trucks ain't gonna work.

Electric SUVs are bad because SUVs are bad and Electric ones make their worst problems worse, not because it's impossible to have large electric vehicles. There are already electric garbage trucks running. Electric cargo trucks are not impossible pipe dreams, though when we are completely redesigning cities, we are going to have to completely redesign our logistics networks at the same time, and it might be useful to do so in a way that involves using more smaller trucks and fewer semis as many european cities have done.

If you are the US, spend like 30 times as much money 30 times faster then "you" need to to meet climate goals, because you are using your vast stolen resources to test, develop, and proof of concept climate intervention for the rest of the world who will copy your good stuff that you make open source because you care more about saving the planet then profits for shareholders.

Are you suggesting that companies should go against Supreme Court decisions?

I want to stress that 1) I am always advocating that people go against supreme court decisions that are bad. Also Congress should ideally disempower the court, but absent that, pack it so that it's less stupid.

2) But more relevantly, nothing about this supreme court opinion is relevant to my point, which is that the US government should be seizing assets and doing things. I'm not advocating for enlightened CEOs, I'm advocating for laws passed by democratic governments.

[Koumei]

I was going to say that nobody is forcing or even advocating for Gnome to eat bugs because the majority population of the entire planet still aren't equal to "a hundred CEOs" for doing damage, and the solutions barely involve anyone here changing anything - all of the news articles about how "you" need to change things (usually made to look inconvenient or horrifying) are just there to distract from the fact that the actual solution involves throwing a pile of oil (and gas, and coal, and "things that run on the above") execs into prison*.

However you're such a fucking bozo that I'm going to say GnomeWorks specifically shouldn't eat bugs, because the bugs are probably smarter.

*Or a giant bouncy castle where life is fun. The key part is taking them away from power and closing those industries down.

[GnomeWorks]

You are just on a hair trigger about your gun nut love and therefore read any mildly poetic criticism of the US military as actually about trying to take away your 14th rifle.

You know what? I'm done. You constantly intentionally mischaracterize anyone who vaguely disagrees with you, and I'm sick of dealing with it.

Fuck you, Kaelik. Fuck you all the way, and that goes for the rest of you godsdamn assclowns, as well.

There's no point in talking to any of you because you are incapable of good faith discussion. So we're done here, you can all fuck off.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

There's no point in talking to any of you because you are incapable of good faith discussion. So we're done here, you can all fuck off.

But the 15 minute cities! I need you to save me from them. When they come to take away mah needlessly giant car and lock me in my 15 minute district its going to be a disaster!

I mean the only business at all within 15 minutes of me is... me. And I don't even sell food.

If all the things I needed were within 15 minutes it wouldn't be a problem... no wait THEY'RE GETTING TO ME WITH THEIR MIND RAYS!

[GnomeWorks]

When they come to take away mah needlessly giant car

I drive a tiny hybrid.

But go on, do keep attacking that strawman. I'm sure someone will find it compelling.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

I drive a tiny hybrid.

Bullshit you do. But I said I drive a needlessly giant car. And sometimes I do. That van is WAY too big except when it sometimes isn't. If only there was a better organised public freight network rather than the private clusterfuck that refuses to even pick up anywhere within 15 minutes of... GOD DAMN IT THEY'RE DOING IT AGAIN!

Now, just man up and tell me about the bit where they lock me in a 15 minute district and take away my freedom to travel. I need to know. You CLEARLY have information on the secret 15 minute hell cities and how evil they are.

[Kaelik]

You are just on a hair trigger about your gun nut love and therefore read any mildly poetic criticism of the US military as actually about trying to take away your 14th rifle.

You know what? I'm done. You constantly intentionally mischaracterize anyone who vaguely disagrees with you, and I'm sick of dealing with it.

Fuck you, Kaelik. Fuck you all the way, and that goes for the rest of you godsdamn assclowns, as well.

There's no point in talking to any of you because you are incapable of good faith discussion. So we're done here, you can all fuck off.

I'm sure it's definitely because I'm mischaracterizing you and not at all because you have no way to explain your belief in the teeming refugee masses that are swaming the United States without sounding super fucking racist.

[Omegonthesane]

You are just on a hair trigger about your gun nut love and therefore read any mildly poetic criticism of the US military as actually about trying to take away your 14th rifle.

You know what? I'm done. You constantly intentionally mischaracterize anyone who vaguely disagrees with you, and I'm sick of dealing with it.

Fuck you, Kaelik. Fuck you all the way, and that goes for the rest of you godsdamn assclowns, as well.

There's no point in talking to any of you because you are incapable of good faith discussion. So we're done here, you can all fuck off.

You were not mischaracterised. Certainly not in any way that is actually meaningful to the argument.

MGuy didn't say shit about personal gun ownership, you read that into a statement just because it contained the phrase "The likelihood that America gives up any of is guns" and parsed that as referring to American people surrendering their personal firearms instead of the American state reducing the growth rate of its global oppression machine.

(I saw NPP's posts before I logged in and they are a lot more agreeable in this context, and while I sort of assume he's not arguing in the best faith, you kind of don't deserve that level of good faith if you're whining about how horrible a city where everything is in 15 minutes walking distance is.)

[GnomeWorks]

Bullshit you do.

Would be an odd thing to lie about, given how unarduous it is to prove it.





I drive a 2011 Honda CR-Z, and have for... six, seven years?

[Kaelik]

Show us the sign next to a picture of the teeming refugees!

[MGuy]

Why respond to the car thing and not the more substantive criticisms of your screed?

[Kaelik]

Why respond to the car thing and not the more substantive criticisms of your screed?

Let them go out on the only thing they've been right about in the entire thread (what car they drive).

[GnomeWorks]

Why respond to the car thing and not the more substantive criticisms of your screed?

Because I'm posting from my phone and doing extensive typing on it is annoying.

I'm sure you clowns can jerk each other off until I'm back at a sensible keyboard.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

But wasn't your whole point that your strangely mishapen small car AND my gigantic van are going to be in 15 minute city CAR PRISON.

Tell us exactly what you fucking meant when you dropped your comment saying...

Man was not meant to live like an ant. 15-minute cities are a fucking terrible idea, and I will not live in one.

No more excuses what the fuck was that about? Go on elaborate on it, I dare you, you prevaricating coward. Don't just name drop one of the stupidest flash in the pan conspiracy theories out there like it was nothing and move on. What next? Will you casually name drop "Mud Flood" in the middle of a rant about the Wokerarti inserting minorities into Star Trek?

What POSSIBLE thing can you claim you meant by that quote which isn't batshit fucking insane. Could it by any chance be the exact total fucking wacko conspiracy theory bullshit floating around the moron-sphere right now adopting the 15 minute city tag? No? You have an alternative sensible version of it? Come on... just tell us already. You couldn't possibly be afraid of being roundly mocked for the laughable stupidity of your 15 minute beliefs right?

And, it's worth it's own thread, which you should start, because I'm sure its... a lot..., and because you WILL accuse anyone else who does so as straw manning your position. But mostly because as mentioned, you are avoiding a bunch of other salient points on this thread already.

[deaddmwalking]

@GnomeWorks-

When you come to the utterly sane position that participating in a thread with Kaelik and NPP is not worth your time, you should refrain from being baited back into the conversation.

They are not fucking worth your time and energy. If you're not enjoying yourself it isn't worth participating. Kaelik particularly exists to destroy joy - he is a hateful bitter person and seeming lives only to mestastize rage.