Illinois Safe-T Act (The Purge Law)

[Stahlseele]

So . . any of the Law people wanna comment on that stuff?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW5WZ2mX8mM
The Fuck is going wrong over there?

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]

A number of posters have asked for me to point out that this link will lead directly to a HATE SPEECH BIGOTRY THEMED YouTube Channel, and therefore, although not Stahlsee's intention, by clicking on it you will be increasing views and clicks for a right wing cocksucker.

Consider yourself warned.

[/TGFBS]

[Kaelik]

It's actually bad to lock people up who have not been convicted of anything for the crime of being poor.

Cash Bail is an objectively bad thing that should never exist, and while there are still many problems, having judges make an evaluation of actual danger is significantly better then making that evaluation and then locking up poor people even when they are found to not be a danger.

Literally sending people a text to remind them of their trial date is better at ensuring people make it to their hearings then bail. The only purpose of locking up people who have not been found guilty of any crime for reasons besides that they “pose[] a specific, real and present threat to any person or the community” is because people who are locked in jail can be coerced into plea deals.

Having learned that you actually know nothing about the law in question and are being deliberately mislead will you now maybe spend like 30 minutes looking into your sources for the first time in your entire life instead of continuing to post blatant bullshit? Or are we getting another one of these in six months like every other time this has happened?

[MGuy]

So . . any of the Law people wanna comment on that stuff?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW5WZ2mX8mM
The Fuck is going wrong over there?

Why are you getting your news from someone who is getting their news from notoriously pro fascism outlet FOX? If you are trying to get news on what's going on in America you can at least do better than a guy supporting talking points from such an infamously bad news source.

[PseudoStupidity]

Anyone else check the channel?

Stahl, you're posting nazi shit again. Stop it or you'll end up talking about how murdering people in the street to defend racism is good again and get embarrassed again and probably call everyone who explains how you are literally indistinguishable from any other nazi the real fascist(s).

[MGuy]

Anyone or anything uncritically citing it otherwise regurgitating news straight from Fox (or it's affiliates/lookalikes) is either a fascist or fascist aligned. You don't even have to do research beyond that to understand it's very likely to be bullshit.

[PseudoStupidity]

Anyone or anything uncritically citing it otherwise regurgitating news straight from Fox (or it's affiliates/lookalikes) is either a fascist or fascist aligned. You don't even have to do research beyond that to understand it's very likely to be bullshit.

That's true, but that's not really the problem here, is it? Stahl has a pattern of behavior where he watches and shares content from people who are nazis. There's also that time he said Kyle Rittenhouse was a good guy and started calling everyone else fascists. I know we had a whole thread about it (that got deleted, even though all the posts in it would have aged like wine) and we probably don't want to do that whole thread again, but Stahl is a fucking nazi and we should probably stop pretending the problem is that he's wrong about everything (though he is) and accept that the problem is that Stahl is a fascist who literally went on a fascist rant and has now resumed posting fascist content. Again.

[MGuy]

I don't think anyone has pretended anything. The post you're quoting is in response to your post about "looking into" the guy who made the video. It is a statement about how there's easier ways to tell that a source of information is basically a Nazi outlet or Nazi adjacent that doesn't require going through their catalogue and is not about Stahl. If you just want people to call Stahl a Nazi now you don't need me to be the springboard for that.

The argument I made back then was that it is unhelpful to whip out the Nazi accusation without sufficient evidence. In context it was a video with a guy spouting the same gamer nonsense that was extremely common online for even normies at the time. Now is not that time and this is not that. Where I could see how someone at the time look at the quartering and not understand what he's doing I didn't even hint that this guy wasn't clearly spouting fascism.

[PseudoStupidity]

I don't think anyone has pretended anything. The post you're quoting is in response to your post about "looking into" the guy who made the video. It is a statement about how there's easier ways to tell that a source of information is basically a Nazi outlet or Nazi adjacent that doesn't require going through their catalogue and is not about Stahl. If you just want people to call Stahl a Nazi now you don't need me to be the springboard for that.

The argument I made back then was that it is unhelpful to whip out the Nazi accusation without sufficient evidence. In context it was a video with a guy spouting the same gamer nonsense that was extremely common online for even normies at the time. Now is not that time and this is not that. Where I could see how someone at the time look at the quartering and not understand what he's doing I didn't even hint that this guy wasn't clearly spouting fascism.

I don't know if you know this, but The Quartering is one of the most popular nazi content creators on YouTube and regularly cites outlets that are worse than Fox News (like the Daily Wire and Tim Pool's podcast), but he is gaming themed and so he's stealth somehow? Stahl posted a video that was not even stealth, it had several obviously transphobic parts, and most of the Quarterings content at the time was the same as it is now (in that it was clearly nazi content).

Basing shit off Fox News doesn't make somebody a fascist, being a fascist and spouting fascist talking points does. It was a thing Stahl posted before, it was a thing Stahl personally did later, and now he's back to posting fascist videos.

My point is not that everyone should call Stahl a nazi, though they should, it's that we should be less hesitant to call people nazis and should definitely not defend them. Instead we should insult them and see if they defend themselves (as Stahl did in the Rittenhouse thread, revealing just how much of a fascist scumbag he is) or act like a normal person (shutting up or apologizing for posting nazi shit). Useful idiots defending nazis leads to nazis operating in stealth for longer, and Stahl happens to be a very good example of that.

[MGuy]

I don't know if you know this but a lot of normal people aren't politic brained and at the time a lot of sentiments about things being "forced" into media to bad results was extremely common on and off the internet. Transphobia was and still is extremely common not even just among people who have turned transphobia into twisted moral stance to protect the children. This is especially true among people who don't really pay attention to politics. I don't know if you know this but many many average Americans repeat talking points that, if they understood the subject matter better, they would not. I don't know if you know this but your average American doesn't understand shit about the trans plight and I don't know if you know this but mainstream news sources don't do a good job explaining it.

I don't know if you have a problem understanding that a lot of people in this God damned country don't know that many of the things they assume about a subject matter are basically wrong but after getting off my ass and actually doing activist work for the past few years it's taught me that things that are obviously disgusting to me are not obvious to "normal" people. So it would be helpful to me for people not to go and assume everyone who does a single thing isn't necessarily a Nazi. Especially when it's just sharing a single video with a guy who is only a bit Internet famous and says things that are not at all uncommon to get caught up in on the Internet.

Fox News, in comparison to someone like the quartering is more mainstream and more infamous in the mainstream. They have been open with their support of fascism for years now and unlike some time so that get fact is a bigger part of the national discussion given Jan 6th. So it is far more reasonable to tell people anyone repeating their talking points in an effort to spread their messages is Nazi or Nazi adjacent without having to sit with them and explain the nuances of the American mediasphere.

What's more is I'm pretty sure Stahl isn't even American and I didn't defend what he did. What I said at the time is that you need more evidence than an video that he did not even defend when it was attacked. Stahl didn't even defend this one either.

So if you just want to call Stahl a Nazi with my explicit blessing go on ahead. They've made the same 'mistake' enough times for them to have a clear pattern of behavior. You got no pushback from me this time, and I gave no pushback the last times people came down on Stahl and what he's posted. For some reason you decided to make a stink about it because apparently you want me to do something specific but I guess you can't just message me and ask me to call him a Nazi like a normal person.

[Kaelik]

Fox News, in comparison to someone like the quartering is more mainstream and more infamous in the mainstream.

The comparison is not The Quartering and Fox News, it's The Quartering and "Tyrone Magnus". The arguments you make for why linking The Quartering isn't evidence of Stahlsee's obvious political inclinations would apply just as much to this time as they did to that time.

I wouldn't necessarily say that Stahlsee is definitely a nazi because of his linking these two videos, but you will recall that in between he did make an entire set of posts cheering the murder of people for the crime of protesting police killings.

I don't know that it makes him a Nazi as opposed to someone who takes the racist conservative position on every issue and aligns with Nazis 100% of the time, but you know..... that's usually how the facism works! "No you don't understand, he doesn't SUPPORT the nazis, he's just going to appoint them Chanchellor" is not a defense that many people seriously articulate.

[MGuy]

This YouTuber is definitely less known to be but the fox/quartering thing was what was talked about last time. YouTuber however used Fox as a source in the video and that's damning enough for me to write them completely off. I don't really care what other videos they made. I think I can convince most people to disregard that creator on that alone without doing deeper searches into their video history.

What's weird here is that I have pseudo 0 pushback on wanting they posted here and yet there's still a problem. I think that's psychotic.

[Grek]

Literally everyone who watches the news at this point knows that Fox News is fascist shit. Not knowing whether some random youtuber is or isn't a fascist is more defensible. Especially when that random youtuber is apparently a black guy doing react videos and gaming content. Not exactly the poster child for white supremacy, that.

But come on, dude. Even some basic critical thinking should tell you that if Fox News says something is going to be 'like the Purge' that probably means it's actually a good thing, but they need an angle to scare monger about it.

[PseudoStupidity]

I don't know if you know this but a lot of normal people aren't politic brained and at the time a lot of sentiments about things being "forced" into media to bad results was extremely common on and off the internet. Transphobia was and still is extremely common not even just among people who have turned transphobia into twisted moral stance to protect the children. This is especially true among people who don't really pay attention to politics. I don't know if you know this but many many average Americans repeat talking points that, if they understood the subject matter better, they would not. I don't know if you know this but your average American doesn't understand shit about the trans plight and I don't know if you know this but mainstream news sources don't do a good job explaining it.

I don't know if you have a problem understanding that a lot of people in this God damned country don't know that many of the things they assume about a subject matter are basically wrong but after getting off my ass and actually doing activist work for the past few years it's taught me that things that are obviously disgusting to me are not obvious to "normal" people. So it would be helpful to me for people not to go and assume everyone who does a single thing isn't necessarily a Nazi. Especially when it's just sharing a single video with a guy who is only a bit Internet famous and says things that are not at all uncommon to get caught up in on the Internet.

I didn't expect you to dredge up this conversation, but I do not consider transphobia to be acceptable and I do consider it to be an issue that separates decent people from bigots. I also do not believe average Americans say transphobic things often. I have never met a person who resists using people's preferred pronouns irl, nor have I met a person who gets mad when pronouns are used in articles irl. The most common thing I'll get with people who aren't plugged into politics is confusion over what trans people are (I mean, most of them get the gist of it but some genuinely do not know) and what they want. Even if these people were common I would not want people who spread transphobia in my social or activist circles, because those people scare away decent people.

Regardless, you are not in a space where you are interacting with average Americans, you are on The Gaming Den, a rather politically active forum about tabletop gaming. And as you point out later in your post, Stahl isn't even American, so this is an especially bizarre defense. The average American's knowledge of trans issues is surely irrelevant when talking about The Gaming Den and, specifically, a German poster.

Fox News, in comparison to someone like the quartering is more mainstream and more infamous in the mainstream. They have been open with their support of fascism for years now and unlike some time so that get fact is a bigger part of the national discussion given Jan 6th. So it is far more reasonable to tell people anyone repeating their talking points in an effort to spread their messages is Nazi or Nazi adjacent without having to sit with them and explain the nuances of the American mediasphere.

Fox is a whole bunch of things, from relatively milquetoast neocons to literal nazis/fascists (Carlson, Gutfeld, and Ingraham being chief among them). All I know about someone who cites Fox news (unless they give me one of those 3 I'm more familiar with) is that they are conservative, whereas if someone cites a Quartering video they are explicitly a fan of a nazi.

What's more is I'm pretty sure Stahl isn't even American and I didn't defend what he did. What I said at the time is that you need more evidence than an video that he did not even defend when it was attacked. Stahl didn't even defend this one either.

You did defend, and are currently defending for some fucking reason (saying that anti-trans rhetoric is normal is a defense), the nazi video he sent that contained nazi talking points and was made by a nazi. It is weird to be doing this still given the revelation that Stahl is an outright fascist who thinks murdering BLM protestors to defend property is good, while protesting police brutality is bad.

The point of my post was that nobody should defend nazi shit, and instead let the person who got called out defend their nazi bullshit, apologize, or shut up. In the case of the nazi thread we saw a bunch of useful idiots defend the nazi video for the nazi, and I thought that was relevant to bring up in this thread (where instead people were correctly saying the video was made by and for fascists).

So if you just want to call Stahl a Nazi with my explicit blessing go on ahead. They've made the same 'mistake' enough times for them to have a clear pattern of behavior. You got no pushback from me this time, and I gave no pushback the last times people came down on Stahl and what he's posted. For some reason you decided to make a stink about it because apparently you want me to do something specific but I guess you can't just message me and ask me to call him a Nazi like a normal person.

I did not want you to do anything specific. The important parts of my post were the second two paragraphs, which I'll repeat:

Basing shit off Fox News doesn't make somebody a fascist, being a fascist and spouting fascist talking points does. It was a thing Stahl posted before, it was a thing Stahl personally did later, and now he's back to posting fascist videos.

My point is not that everyone should call Stahl a nazi, though they should, it's that we should be less hesitant to call people nazis and should definitely not defend them. Instead we should insult them and see if they defend themselves (as Stahl did in the Rittenhouse thread, revealing just how much of a fascist scumbag he is) or act like a normal person (shutting up or apologizing for posting nazi shit). Useful idiots defending nazis leads to nazis operating in stealth for longer, and Stahl happens to be a very good example of that.

[Omegonthesane]

Picking out how much of that shit is "the conversation has fucking moved since even May 2020 let alone whenever it was that Stahl actually brought up the video" is beyond my actual interest in the conversation, I said some shit that I regret nearly a decade ago and I would like to think that in 2032 I'll be thinking "gosh 2022 Omegonthesane was kind of an insensitive prick about X/Y/Z" as that would show further growth. That being said.

I have never met a person who resists using people's preferred pronouns irl

You're pretty fucking sheltered then, even outwardly supportive family will keep slipping up on that if they don't actively resent the imposition, and while that complicates the picture of a genuine love shown by their other actions, it doesn't just simply mean literally everything else they did was a bullshit manipulative ploy meant to force you into a box they imagined. Part of why I have complex feelings about the death of my mother instead of just unalloyed grief is that now I'll never have to suffer through her either being inept about doing accepting deeds instead of merely saying accepting words in one conversation that was among the last we ever had, so her memory will never have to be tainted by the worst possible way that interaction could play out.

saying that anti-trans rhetoric is normal is a defense

Most forms of bigotry are embedded into most people's thought process by today's society, which is sustained and strengthened by bigotry in most of its forms. Transphobia can still be said explicitly out loud in more places than homophobia or racism, that does not mean that homophobia and racism ever stopped being normalised in practice.

Recognising that transphobia is a normal part of the mainstream is not a defence of a transphobic video - it is a condemnation of the mainstream.

[MGuy]

I do not know how you couldn't expect an old discussion, that you intentionally made reference to, not to be referenced by someone else. It floors me. The fact that you don't understand that or whatever l encounter regular Americans that say transphobic shit frequently now, and even more so in recent history, then you are living in a very privileged place. I sincerely can't imagine being that privileged. Talk about normalization and common biases is steeped deep not only in leftist theory but also our media. So with that in mind you not understanding what it means for transphobia to be normalized boggles my mind. Most of the people around me, that I go to with with, and that I've talked to when knocking on doors or going to meetings are not high minded any trans politics. Most of the people, that I interact with that are at all familiar with the topic are on the Internet and even then, outside of certain spaces, it isn't a thing that's taken that seriously. I do not know what kind of circles you run in to not know that transphobia, both casual and serious, is alive and very well in this country but you should probably take a journey outside those bubbles and look around. It's depressingly common. I dare say "normalized" in American society.

Also this being the den has nothing to do with what vI said or the fact that Stahl isn't American. I expect non Americans to know even less about American politics much less American laws. People in other countries are bewildered by our laws and the things we do frequently.

I'll repeat my stance one more time. There's a normalized view of leftists as being very eager to label anything and anyone some version of -ist or Nazi. When I say normalized I mean that politically disinterested people believe it. Even people who do pay some attention to politics but aren't very curious about details (many voters you're likely to meet knocking on doors) have that image. That image is not helped if people, like you, go and fall for the strategy where the given Nazi says or does something that any normie might say or do then have them immediately called a Nazi. It is better to allow for at least some pattern of behavior or set of arguments be made to draw that conclusion and not a single video with a guy saying things that are not uncommon among the public. There's also no need to jump the gun when debunking or making fun of the ideas presented is much more effective at both tearing apart the propaganda but also giving others the tools necessary to do the same should they find people in their own lives regurgitating the same thing.

None of that is a defense of anything. It's a criticism of shitty tactics. It's psychotic to me that you can't really differentiate the two. It would be like me accusing you of doing Fox apologia for being less critical of people still watching that shit after they went all in on treason. I don't because that would be psychotic. We both agree Fox bad and would criticize any propaganda from that outlet that came up. That's good enough.

[PseudoStupidity]

Picking out how much of that shit is "the conversation has fucking moved since even May 2020 let alone whenever it was that Stahl actually brought up the video" is beyond my actual interest in the conversation, I said some shit that I regret nearly a decade ago and I would like to think that in 2032 I'll be thinking "gosh 2022 Omegonthesane was kind of an insensitive prick about X/Y/Z" as that would show further growth. That being said.

I have never met a person who resists using people's preferred pronouns irl

You're pretty fucking sheltered then, even outwardly supportive family will keep slipping up on that if they don't actively resent the imposition, and while that complicates the picture of a genuine love shown by their other actions, it doesn't just simply mean literally everything else they did was a bullshit manipulative ploy meant to force you into a box they imagined. Part of why I have complex feelings about the death of my mother instead of just unalloyed grief is that now I'll never have to suffer through her either being inept about doing accepting deeds instead of merely saying accepting words in one conversation that was among the last we ever had, so her memory will never have to be tainted by the worst possible way that interaction could play out.

People messing up != people resisting using someone's preferred pronouns, and I'm pretty sure everyone has screwed up someone's pronouns at some point.

saying that anti-trans rhetoric is normal is a defense

Most forms of bigotry are embedded into most people's thought process by today's society, which is sustained and strengthened by bigotry in most of its forms. Transphobia can still be said explicitly out loud in more places than homophobia or racism, that does not mean that homophobia and racism ever stopped being normalised in practice.

Recognising that transphobia is a normal part of the mainstream is not a defence of a transphobic video - it is a condemnation of the mainstream.

I did not claim that transphobia isn't normalized or a thing that people do, I made three claims that I think are pretty fucking obvious to anyone who lives in the US. Average Americans don't say transphobic things often, I've never met someone who resisted using someone's preferred pronouns irl (has anyone seriously met someone who did this? That's incredibly disrespectful and can get the offender into trouble in a few situations), and never met someone who gets mad when pronouns are used in articles irl. Your average American lives in a liberal city, so I don't think my experiences are the outlier here. Open transphobia is frowned upon, much like open homophobia and open racism. This does not mean it doesn't happen, just that it's not a thing most folks view as normal. I'm sure trans people run into transphobia much more often than I do, given they're trans and more transphobes are going to be openly transphobic to them whereas very few transphobes will feel the need to share their transphobia with people who are not trans. This is why it's important for me to reject anti-trans rhetoric instead of accept it, transphobes won't get better if they think transphobia is acceptable.

The mainstream is not as transphobic as The Quartering, and fuck anyone who says otherwise as that is how you normalize transphobia. Normal people do not groan and bitch when they read pronouns in an article, nor do they actively try to misgender trans people. That is a thing extreme bigots do, and they're fucking assholes who we call assholes when they do bigotry. We don't give them a pat on the head and say "awww poor widdle baby doesn't understand that they need to respect trans people UwU, let's be kind", we tell them to fuck off. Please do not coddle them (this is different for family members, close friends, etc. as they are people we may want to teach and that may require a certain level of coddling)!

I do not know how you couldn't expect an old discussion, that you intentionally made reference to, not to be referenced by someone else. It floors me. The fact that you don't understand that or whatever l encounter regular Americans that say transphobic shit frequently now, and even more so in recent history, then you are living in a very privileged place. I sincerely can't imagine being that privileged. Talk about normalization and common biases is steeped deep not only in leftist theory but also our media. So with that in mind you not understanding what it means for transphobia to be normalized boggles my mind. Most of the people around me, that I go to with with, and that I've talked to when knocking on doors or going to meetings are not high minded any trans politics. Most of the people, that I interact with that are at all familiar with the topic are on the Internet and even then, outside of certain spaces, it isn't a thing that's taken that seriously. I do not know what kind of circles you run in to not know that transphobia, both casual and serious, is alive and very well in this country but you should probably take a journey outside those bubbles and look around. It's depressingly common. I dare say "normalized" in American society.

I didn't expect you to bring it up because I figured you learned things and would be too embarrassed to get into it again. I thought you were smarter than this, but I was wrong.

Not taking trans rights seriously is different from open transphobia. What the fuck situations are you getting into where people start acting transphobic? I talk with friends, have a few D&D groups, ride public transit, volunteer, work in a large organization with a fuckton of people, and this leads me to interacting with people from across the economic and political spectrum (all in Massachusetts), but I still haven't run into a person who will misgender trans people on purpose (or tell me they would do so). There's a guy on TV who does that, but that guy is a fucking nazi and most people I know fucking hate that guy. The worst transphobia someone has revealed to me is that bog-standard "I wouldn't date a trans person!" shit because they were an insecure straight man, which is stupid but teachable, while the most common is someone talking about trans people in sports, which is usually a sign they have run into some propaganda and never looked into it beyond that.

I genuinely do not understand who the fuck you're interacting with and in what ways such that you have people proudly declare "Hell yeah I'll misgender trans people on purpose!" or say "the biggest concern I have is pronouns in articles!" because those are fuckstupid positions that only Internet losers and their followers hold. Not that those people don't ever go outside, but they're awkward nerds that everyone hates. Most people are nice and do not want to do bigotry, so they'll do whatever is socially acceptable in social situations.

Also this being the den has nothing to do with what vI said or the fact that Stahl isn't American. I expect non Americans to know even less about American politics much less American laws. People in other countries are bewildered by our laws and the things we do frequently.

I'll repeat my stance one more time. There's a normalized view of leftists as being very eager to label anything and anyone some version of -ist or Nazi. When I say normalized I mean that politically disinterested people believe it. Even people who do pay some attention to politics but aren't very curious about details (many voters you're likely to meet knocking on doors) have that image. That image is not helped if people, like you, go and fall for the strategy where the given Nazi says or does something that any normie might say or do then have them immediately called a Nazi. It is better to allow for at least some pattern of behavior or set of arguments be made to draw that conclusion and not a single video with a guy saying things that are not uncommon among the public. There's also no need to jump the gun when debunking or making fun of the ideas presented is much more effective at both tearing apart the propaganda but also giving others the tools necessary to do the same should they find people in their own lives regurgitating the same thing.

None of that is a defense of anything. It's a criticism of shitty tactics. It's psychotic to me that you can't really differentiate the two. It would be like me accusing you of doing Fox apologia for being less critical of people still watching that shit after they went all in on treason. I don't because that would be psychotic. We both agree Fox bad and would criticize any propaganda from that outlet that came up. That's good enough.

Bolding mine.

Your stance fucking sucks, this is what I was making fun of earlier both because of where you're taking this stance (the Gaming Den) and that you take this stance at all.

It sucks because it's the Den: Nobody whose door you are knocking on is on The Gaming Den, this is a forum that is majority-left and very "woke". You don't need to normalize transphobia here, it isn't normal here and we don't want it to be! Stop trying to make it normal you dumb fuck. Normalize making fun of transphobes and calling them names. It was before my time I think, but didn't a trans person get scared off the den because other people were transphobic to them? Shouldn't we want to prevent that? Fuck off.

It sucks in general: We should always seek to create spaces where people feel safe. By allowing transphobic content to be shared unchallenged (or, better yet, defending transphobic things when other people call it out because you think they're jumping the gun) you are creating a space where trans people are less likely to feel safe. Don't do this online or irl, as in this case you're doing a double whammy of potentially making bigots feel safe and potentially making people who may otherwise stand up to bigotry less willing to do so.

To address the weird Fox bit, if I had defended Fox News you could have rightly ripped into me for defending it, because defending Fox is bad. Instead I explained that Fox has a bunch of content and some of it is bad and some of it is nazis. Hell, Fox even had a nice little pro-trans story a few months back about a conservative Christian family with a trans child (which the Daily Wire crew got very mad about, as the family was nice and supportive of their kid). Note that this is different from defending someone for sharing Fox news, that would depend on the individual clip. If someone shares the nice story about the family that is kind to their trans kid you should not get mad at them, but if they share Tucker Carlson doing his little Goebbels routine you should be mean!

tl;dr: If you see someone being called a nazi do not defend the person, or the thing that resulted in them being called a nazi, unless you think the thing they did didn't warrant it. If you find yourself defending transphobia I don't think the issue is that the person being called a nazi is being called a nazi unfairly, I think the issue is that you need to stop being nice to transphobes so you stop thinking that shit is normal. You also really aren't in a space where you should be criticizing people for being a bit too willing to express their distaste for transphobia. I'm not sure if such a space exists at all, but if it does exist this isn't it.

[Omegonthesane]

Picking out how much of that shit is "the conversation has fucking moved since even May 2020 let alone whenever it was that Stahl actually brought up the video" is beyond my actual interest in the conversation, I said some shit that I regret nearly a decade ago and I would like to think that in 2032 I'll be thinking "gosh 2022 Omegonthesane was kind of an insensitive prick about X/Y/Z" as that would show further growth. That being said.

I have never met a person who resists using people's preferred pronouns irl

You're pretty fucking sheltered then, even outwardly supportive family will keep slipping up on that if they don't actively resent the imposition, and while that complicates the picture of a genuine love shown by their other actions, it doesn't just simply mean literally everything else they did was a bullshit manipulative ploy meant to force you into a box they imagined. Part of why I have complex feelings about the death of my mother instead of just unalloyed grief is that now I'll never have to suffer through her either being inept about doing accepting deeds instead of merely saying accepting words in one conversation that was among the last we ever had, so her memory will never have to be tainted by the worst possible way that interaction could play out.

People messing up != people resisting using someone's preferred pronouns, and I'm pretty sure everyone has screwed up someone's pronouns at some point.

My mother's husband espouses broad support of trans rights. He also ACTIVELY resists using his grandson's proper pronouns, and resents any suggestion that he should change the pronouns he's used for over a decade for this person. It is beyond "messing up" into active resistance.

A convention friend still has their parents misgendering them consistently behind their back five years after they came out to all and sundry.

Honestly though I'm kind of bewildered that you're this passionate about being salty going on two years later about how someone didn't jump the gun and call someone a Nazi based on a single data pointin a deleted thread two years and change ago. It wasn't obvious that Stahl was just a fascist based on one video; it is obvious based on multiple data points. It is quite naive of you to assume that everyone in the forum is necessarily that politically engaged even if the water mark set by the dedicated politics discussing thread is relatively high. Thus there is no special need to adopt new tactics in the Den that would be psychotic tactics in the average locale.

[MGuy]

I'm not embarrassed about my stance because it is accurate and the correct stance for sane people. While under normal circumstances someone like you would be embarrassed about this psychotic behavior you're exhibiting, starting an argument in public over nothing with people that sided with you, on the internet there are other pressures that demand you keep acting this way despite how dumb it is even on the surface of it. A reminder that the thing you're mad about is not a thing that mattered in this context. It also doesn't matter given that you claim you don't want me to do anything specific. You claim that you're trying to create a 'safe space ' but nothing about my stance prevents that. More importantly nothing about my stance applied to this thread unless you wanted me to do something. Since you don't want me to do anything, you clearly aren't trying to convince me to change since you haven't drummed up a for me to, I have to guess you have some idiotic idea that if you act out enough that's going to advance... Something.

If I see you being wrong or dumb I am going to call you out for being wrong or dumb.

[PseudoStupidity]

Picking out how much of that shit is "the conversation has fucking moved since even May 2020 let alone whenever it was that Stahl actually brought up the video" is beyond my actual interest in the conversation, I said some shit that I regret nearly a decade ago and I would like to think that in 2032 I'll be thinking "gosh 2022 Omegonthesane was kind of an insensitive prick about X/Y/Z" as that would show further growth. That being said.



You're pretty fucking sheltered then, even outwardly supportive family will keep slipping up on that if they don't actively resent the imposition, and while that complicates the picture of a genuine love shown by their other actions, it doesn't just simply mean literally everything else they did was a bullshit manipulative ploy meant to force you into a box they imagined. Part of why I have complex feelings about the death of my mother instead of just unalloyed grief is that now I'll never have to suffer through her either being inept about doing accepting deeds instead of merely saying accepting words in one conversation that was among the last we ever had, so her memory will never have to be tainted by the worst possible way that interaction could play out.

People messing up != people resisting using someone's preferred pronouns, and I'm pretty sure everyone has screwed up someone's pronouns at some point.

My mother's husband espouses broad support of trans rights. He also ACTIVELY resists using his grandson's proper pronouns, and resents any suggestion that he should change the pronouns he's used for over a decade for this person. It is beyond "messing up" into active resistance.

A convention friend still has their parents misgendering them consistently behind their back five years after they came out to all and sundry.

Honestly though I'm kind of bewildered that you're this passionate about being salty going on two years later about how someone didn't jump the gun and call someone a Nazi based on a single data pointin a deleted thread two years and change ago. It wasn't obvious that Stahl was just a fascist based on one video; it is obvious based on multiple data points. It is quite naive of you to assume that everyone in the forum is necessarily that politically engaged even if the water mark set by the dedicated politics discussing thread is relatively high. Thus there is no special need to adopt new tactics in the Den that would be psychotic tactics in the average locale.

I wasn't commenting on your family in particular with the "people mess up" bit (the point was well-meaning people will sometimes misgender others on accident, not that nobody ever misgenders people maliciously) as I do not know you or your family and all that seems pretty personal. I am still not going to comment on it, nor on your friend, except to say I'm sorry that those things happened.

I'm going to say that we did know Stahl was a fascist though, as it was always a thing he hinted at until he started sharing fascist content. It was disturbing to me when a bunch of posters went to bat for him because I always viewed TGD as a place that responded to bigotry with vitriol. Bringing it up when he shared more fascist content is pretty reasonable though, this thread is literally the same fucking incident as the other one except I didn't watch this video since it had appropriately been pointed out as fascist content.

I thought Mguy's post about how this time is totally different was fucking dumb, which restarted the argument of "how can you tell if content is fascist or not" in earnest. Obviously I am correct that this time isn't so different from last time, and that the one difference (this channel gets ~20% fewer views than the other channel Stahl shared) goes against his claim that The Quartering is a stealth channel but this one isn't. So now we're having this stupid fucking argument, which I know is stupid, and Mguy has to circled back around to defending open transphobia as normal instead of a sign of more extreme bigotry again. That is pretty concerning to me because there is currently a big ol fascist movement in the US that is explicitly targeting LGBT people. Open transphobes are, at their best, fascist-aligned. As to whether being aligned with fascists means you should be called a nazi or not (though I think it's fair, even good, to call them that depending on circumstances), who the fuck cares? Just be mean to them in whatever way suits you best.

I'm not embarrassed about my stance because it is accurate and the correct stance for sane people. While under normal circumstances someone like you would be embarrassed about this psychotic behavior you're exhibiting, starting an argument in public over nothing with people that sided with you, on the internet there are other pressures that demand you keep acting this way despite how dumb it is even on the surface of it. A reminder that the thing you're mad about is not a thing that mattered in this context. It also doesn't matter given that you claim you don't want me to do anything specific. You claim that you're trying to create a 'safe space ' but nothing about my stance prevents that. More importantly nothing about my stance applied to this thread unless you wanted me to do something. Since you don't want me to do anything, you clearly aren't trying to convince me to change since you haven't drummed up a for me to, I have to guess you have some idiotic idea that if you act out enough that's going to advance... Something.

If I see you being wrong or dumb I am going to call you out for being wrong or dumb.

Mguy, fucking hell.

You want me to ask you to do something, right? What I want you to do is be mean to transphobes and not normalize transphobia or defend transphobic statements as normal. This is something you have now failed at twice, though they're both kinda-sorta from the same incident so I'm cool with calling it just one time if that helps you shut the fuck up about how transphobia is normal and we should actually be fine with people who share openly transphobic content. Please stop doing this! Do not do this in real life, do not do this online, do not do it in a house, do not do it with a mouse. Fucking stop you dense motherfucker, it is incredibly weird to me that you are doing this.

[Kaelik]

I genuinely regret crushing this shit so hard on my first post that this entire thread completely stopped being about how cash bail is a vile instrument of oppression used solely to obtain false confession pleas and became about this fight.

Can't we all just get along and agree to hunt down and lock up every govenor for 2 years because they haven't given us 2 trillion dollars to prove they won't run away?

[PseudoStupidity]

There's so little to say about cash bail that everyone doesn't already agree with (namely that it is bad, and that all bail seems excessive given more people are in debt than actually have a noticeable amount of savings). Not a lot of other countries even have bail it seems, you either wait for trial in jail or you wait at home, no money exchanged. That makes a lot more sense and seems much more just than the US bail system, which looks to be one of the worst possible systems. Par for the course given the rest of our justice system, and I guess most of our systems.

As to locking up governors, some folks from Wisconsin tried that already! They didn't have any luck, and I don't think they were doing it because of cash bail, but I like their moxie (and only their moxie).

[MGuy]

I genuinely regret crushing this shit so hard on my first post that this entire thread completely stopped being about how cash bail is a vile instrument of oppression used solely to obtain false confession pleas and became about this fight.

Can't we all just get along and agree to hunt down and lock up every govenor for 2 years because they haven't given us 2 trillion dollars to prove they won't run away?

We agree on that, agreed that the misinformation was dumb and bad, agree that these officials need to be taken care of in certain ways. One would think you could just agree with people and not argue for no reason but people with mental issues can find ways to make up things to be mad about.

In this case pseudo has had to leverage the fact they don't understand what normalization is, how it works, or it what it looks like to keep this up until after being called in it. Then they had to switch gears. It seems they've backed off of their original issue of being mad that I may do something that I did not do here coupled with not understanding that certain ideas have been normalized in this country cause 'they don't see it'. Now they've switched to aggressively misunderstanding the process of normalization, what it looks like, and how it works so they can aggressively ask me to be more mean to random people on the internet for their own personal satisfaction (something I called several posts ago and normal people could just message other people about). I'm not doing dumb shit for people who decide to be dumb and who are so toxic that they will decide to randomly argue with people already in their side on the issue at hand. I'll just lay that out before they actually discover how normalization works, back off yet again, and decide to further warp what their actual complaint is to whatever it needs to be to continue to be mad that I am not mean enough to people on the internet.

[Kaelik]

Mguy, if you are going to make a post about how you will not stop fighting Pseudo at least quote him instead of me.

EDIT: And I'm not actually saying we need to do anything to governors, I'm just saying that if Governors were arrested and put in jail until they had to pay 2 trillion dollars (a number they absolutely don't have and never will) they would recognize the unfairness, and we should extend that understanding to when poor people get locked up for fake amounts of money, and work to release people and/or pass laws to prevent it. I don't imagine kidnapping governors would actually be the best way to leverage that recognition.

[PseudoStupidity]

I was not condoning kidnapping governors! I do condone throwing politicians in jail until they fix unjust laws, but doing so legally. Please do not kidnap your governor.

[Kaelik]

In Atlanta the cops have just decided to arrest the people who run bail funds for "charity fraud" and "money laundering." Great system cash bail is.

First you arrest innocent people, then you tell them to plead guitly or raise a 100k, then you arrest anyone who loans them 100k.