The imminent collapse of the liberal-conservative consensus.

[Lago PARANOIA]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/15/economy/ ... _term=link

Fed officials now predict the central bank's benchmark interest rate to rise to 0.9% in 2022, up from the 0.3% expectation from September, signaling additional interest hikes.

Market expectations for an interest rate increase are picking up in May next year, according to the CME FedWatch tool.

As an anti-electoralist accelerationist, I'm extremely glad that Biden is President. Imagine if Trump was President and the Fed did this. The Democrats would only end up clawing their way back from the grave even more in 2022. But since Biden is President, there's a good chance this party completely dies out by 2025.

[Kaelik]

This is a great example of you being incoherent.

You say you are anti-electoralist, but also you insist that it's very important that the president is the person you voted for in order to get the change you want. And the change you want is...... a political party that competes in elections to die, presumably so it can be replaced by another political party which will compete in elections.

That's electoralism! Accelerationist Electoralism is still electoralism.

Actual non electoralism is Marxist-Leninists who believe that the only way to get the change needed is to overthrow the government, or people who advocate for a general strike until demands are met. These are positions in which both the goal is not about killing a political party that competes in elections or replacing it with a different party that competes in elections, nor is the method to achieve that goal dependent on certain figures being elected.

[Lago PARANOIA]

For fuck's sake dude, I know you're a lawyer and thus have lawyer-brain but can you PLEASE try to think of politics in terms other than bureaucratic rituals?

The fucking END RESULT is what's important, not the process. This is especially so when the process requires an intermediate step that, if the process stopped there, would create a less intended result than not starting the process at all. B'rer Rabbit isn't anti-briar patch because he spends all day begging people not to throw him into the briar patch. B'rer Rabbit is pro-briar patch because he wants to be thrown into there and the best way to accomplish it is to convince his opponents that he doesn't want it.

[Omegonthesane]

I think Lago's claim is that the collapse of the Democrats will somehow convince a critical mass of people that electoralism is bullshit, thus paving the way for whatever his preferred next step is.

I'm not informed enough to coherently condone or condemn that strategy.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Yes. Thank you, Omegonthesane. Why was that so hard to understand? Fucking lawyers, man. Why couldn't our liberal overlords be boat dealership owners or quack doctors instead.

That said, my wished-for collapse of the Democrats it's not 'paving the way' so much as 'pouring fuel on the fire'. The trend that I think will actually lead to the planet's salvation is already in its opening phases. So what we need to do is to remove obstacles to the nurturing of that flame. Such as the Democratic Party.

[Kaelik]

Why was that so hard to understand?

Because you literally never actually advocate for people to abandon electoralism, and instead spend 100% of your time talking about how you want specific election outcomes.

But if that's your point, then you are still wrong. If you need specific electoral outcomes to convince people that electoralism is bad, then you are doing electoralism! I know lots of MLs and MLMs, and none of them think that "the collapse of the democratic party" is an important step to anything. All of them would point out that some other party of capital will take it's place and we will still have two parties of capital and elections, and that the path to revolution is not for specific electoral outcomes to convince people of anything, but instead for persuasion outside the electoral system to convince people to take up arms and form a worker state.

Fucking lawyers, man. Why couldn't our liberal overlords be boat dealership owners or quack doctors instead.

Yeah, liberal fan of the democratic party Kaelik, that's me. Because the Boat Dealer owners and quack doctors are all republicans.

That said, my wished-for collapse of the Democrats it's not 'paving the way' so much as 'pouring fuel on the fire'. The trend that I think will actually lead to the planet's salvation is already in its opening phases. So what we need to do is to remove obstacles to the nurturing of that flame. Such as the Democratic Party.

I'm sure your very unelectoral reasons for voting and thinking your vote is very important and is the only way to produce the outcomes you want is very smart and I definitely think you should keep telling everyone about how they should vote for democrats, specifically the worse democrats every time, to kill the democratic party without ever mentioning the, apparently secret, final step of revolution that you will spring on your flock in just a few more decades.

I'm definitely not saying this because I think you are incapable of persuading anyone and so do not find the idea of trying to convince you to evangelize for an actually useful position worthwhile.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Gentlemen: How do we really kill the Democrat party?

[Kaelik]

Gentlemen: How do we really kill the Democrat party?

Attempting to do anything to try to kill the democratic party is pointless. The democratic party will last as long as the oligarchs think they have to keep pretending to have elections. And when they no longer think they have to pretend, it will not be because the revolution is coming, it will because fascism is solidified.

The democratic party might incidentally suffer losses from people engaging in non electoral action or it might not, but spending time trying to cause the democratic party to stop existing when you could engage in direct action is pointless.

[MGuy]

I pretty much agree with kaelik.

I do not understand how anyone could look at what libs talk about on Twitter and come to the ultimate conclusion that the Dems will collapse and somehow things will work out afterward. Most Dem voters are ok with Biden as a leader even if they are dissatisfied with the lack of results. Of course he can't do anything, Manchin and Sinema exist. The same excuses that were trotted out back in '16 when I was talking about how much of a failure Obama was. I do not see any reason to believe the mild disappointment wouldn't be overcome by experiencing yet another Republican administration that'll surely scare the people right back in line. There is no alternative ever than voting for another corporate backed Democrat and they are so confident in that fact that, save for Sanders, we were offered up nothing else. We just decided to get Obama 2.0 in olde flavor this time around.

The idea that voting for any of the choices that are cherry picked for presidency will, itself somehow, cause some kind of shake up is very strange to me after seeing how the 2020 primaries went. It really sounds like an incomprehensible scheme to let electoralism destroy electoralism. Surely the thing we're already doing will inevitably result in things getting better at some point.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Attempting to do anything to try to kill the democratic party is pointless. The democratic party will last as long as the oligarchs think they have to keep pretending to have elections. And when they no longer think they have to pretend, it will not be because the revolution is coming, it will because fascism is solidified.

But that's not fun to talk about and make up silly scenarios for.
For example, the idea that Biden is actually Trump in a skinsuit with tons of CGI and deepfaking. That's unironically hilarious, and just as worth talking about as 90% of political discussion on the internet (ie: not at all).

[Kaelik]

So sort of on topic, starting just today I've seen Josh Marshall, Stephanie Ruhle, and Chris Hayes turn against democratic leadership, so I guess the democratic defense media establishment has made the turn to some kind of contempt/face saving.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Because you literally never actually advocate for people to abandon electoralism, and instead spend 100% of your time talking about how you want specific election outcomes.

Electoralism is when you vote in elections even when you're doing so to intentionally subvert the system. If you do the rituals, that means you must believe in the system. Much like when I play a video game to take screenshots of it for an anti-defamation suit, I am in fact secretly supporting said video game because I played it. Like I said: peak lawyer brain.

But if that's your point, then you are still wrong. If you need specific electoral outcomes to convince people that electoralism is bad, then you are doing electoralism! I know lots of MLs and MLMs, and none of them think that "the collapse of the democratic party" is an important step to anything. All of them would point out that some other party of capital will take it's place and we will still have two parties of capital and elections, and that the path to revolution is not for specific electoral outcomes to convince people of anything, but instead for persuasion outside the electoral system to convince people to take up arms and form a worker state.

And that's where you're wrong. Most people are not MLs or even anti-capitalists. If they were, I wouldn't even be bothering with this.

However, way too many people otherwise sympathetic to socialism have way too much faith in the Democratic Party to save them. So long as the Democratic Party remains an electoral viable alternative to the GOP, such people will continue running into the arms of sheepdogs like Sanders and Biden.

The easiest to get them to stop doing that is to remove the Democratic Party as a force. Bonus points if the GOP shits on their grave hard enough to lock in de jure one-party rule, rather than de facto rule. Then these normies will be faced with a grim choice: either find some other way to fight the fascists than the vote box, or they commit themselves to a slow execution.

I'm sure your very unelectoral reasons for voting and thinking your vote is very important and is the only way to produce the outcomes you want is very smart and I definitely think you should keep telling everyone about how they should vote for democrats, specifically the worse democrats every time, to kill the democratic party without ever mentioning the, apparently secret, final step of revolution that you will spring on your flock in just a few more decades.

Let me be real with you, Kaelik. This fucking website couldn't even minimally influence the greater arc of tabletop gaming, a niche hobby where a podcast can literally direct the design of sourcebooks.

Now expand this impotence of rhetoric and debate to the greater arc of American politics. I am under no delusions that my vote or how I conduct myself in the rhetorical arena matters. If you think that my, your, or anyone's political ineffectiveness has anything to do with our powers of persuasion -- sorry, but you have terminal lawyer brain. You'd have to be a complete moron to think that rhetoric and discourse have ANY effect on politics.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I pretty much agree with kaelik.

I do not understand how anyone could look at what libs talk about on Twitter and come to the ultimate conclusion that the Dems will collapse and somehow things will work out afterward. Most Dem voters are ok with Biden as a leader even if they are dissatisfied with the lack of results.

What's different this time from, say, 1936 or even 2004 is that the GOP has openly embraced anti-majoritarian rule. There isn't going to be a swing back to the center after the GOP fucks up, like what happened with Reagan and W. Bush, because the GOP will use the levers of American democracy to lock their rule into place.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So sort of on topic, starting just today I've seen Josh Marshall, Stephanie Ruhle, and Chris Hayes turn against democratic leadership, so I guess the democratic defense media establishment has made the turn to some kind of contempt/face saving.

EDIT: All right, that's not exactly fair. I considered the possibility that you just may not be familiar with the song and dance routine of these turds. Mosh Jarshall, Stephanie Ruhle, and especially that ratfuck Chris Hayes do that kind of shit all of the time. They feign confusion and outrage at the reactionary spasms and corruption of capitalism/the Democratic Party out of a supposedly sincere hope that by shining a light on the issue the institutions will Do Better.

They are concern trolling. They're not even good for trying to get an idea of what the capitalist ownership class is doing, since they are paid to do this schtick no matter what the greater political conditions are. Just ignore them and similar turds like, say, Matthew Yglesias.

Now that you know the mechanics behind their scam, I will henceforth make fun of you or anyone else if y'all use the behavior of anyone on left-liberal media as a harbinger of anything.

[Kaelik]

Truly Lago, you have a unique ability to reply to a post in a way that shows you didn't understand a single part of it.