The Gaming Den

+1 every 4 levels is woefully pathetic.

In low magic or no-magic campaigns, PCs are stuck with the scores they started with, +1 maybe to their best stat or two before they die a gruesome death due to not being able to keep up with monster abilities of the same CR.

In D&D RAW, you NEED stat boosting items to be competent.

Some desperate players go the Vow of Poverty route, or dip into PrCs or half-races that give some boosts, but I suggest we use the 5e method of "spend a feat" since we have this zeitgeist of feat-per-level lately.
Wizards with Wish can improve all their scores by 5 if given enough time at level 17.

The question is, how much ability score improvement does one feat equal, and where do you cap it?


The War Hulk PrC adds +2 STR every level for 10 levels, but has some hefty drawbacks.
Tome of Fiends has Fiendish Brute (https://dungeons.fandom.com/wiki/Fiendi ... .5e_Class)) that gives +1 to two scores.

Feats should not boost ability scores because that's boring.

Just have people get the bonuses they need from leveling up. e.g. use the bonuses from this but based on levels in PC classes (I make it so you need to already have a shield bonus, e.g. from carrying a shield or casting shield to get the enhancement bonus to shield). Things like Large Size or Huge Size are okay (after nerfs from Kaelik's errata, i.e. The Feats Large Size and Huge Size do longer provide the stat modifiers of increasing size. Instead, they each grant a +4 Str and +2 Con, with no attribute penalties.) because they're not just ability scores, but that's not assuming a feat per level. Feat per level feats definitely should not modify your ability scores, and Large and Huge Size under a feat per level paradigm should just make you bigger and not do anything else.

Wow! Kaelik thought of everything!

I was delving into Pathfart alternatives but they seemed to be lacking. Kaelik's is much better.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/ ... ogression/

When you offer a choice between Column A and Column B, some people are ONLY going to choose from Column A, some people are only going to choose from Column B, and some people will take some from both.

The differences between someone who chooses exclusively from Column A and someone who chooses exclusively from Column B are going to be drastic. Potentially to the point that one is always the right option and the other is NOT the right option.

I can't see how you get a bonus of less than +1 (unless your feat is non-stackable and it gives a fixed rate of increase like BAB progression). So having +20 to ability scores versus having 20 feats - how do characters that choose one path versus the other compare? Or better, how about at 8th level (a level that people actually play)?

What I think you'll find is that choosing exclusively from one column is bad. As a result, you want to give people choices from both columns. Ie, if you give people a +1 to stat at every level, and a bonus feat at every level, there is no disparity between characters. While characters might be more powerful than 'standard', if they're equally powerful over the baseline it doesn't really matter. You can always adjust the rate (ie, +1 every 2 levels) or establish other limitations - a +20 to Intelligence is game-breaking in a way that a +5 to every stat isn't (even though that's a +30 total bonus).

I was thinking more of the limit like Inherent bonus from Wish has.
That's built into the game.

You do realize that there are sources other than inherent bonuses, right? You could get a +4 Strength from an item and also get a +5 Strength from wishes for a total of +9?

If this is another source of bonus, you need to be explicit with how it interacts with those other sources.

deaddmwalking wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:59 am

You do realize that there are sources other than inherent bonuses, right? You could get a +4 Strength from an item and also get a +5 Strength from wishes for a total of +9?

If this is another source of bonus, you need to be explicit with how it interacts with those other sources.

What like item-derived enhancement bonus?
That's conditional.
Any kind of character setup can put on a "+4 STR belt of whatever" and their STR is 4 higher, but inherent bonuses come from either extremely expensive one-shot books, or Wish.

Yes, but if you choose a progression for stat boosts that is based on 'no magic', but then you allow Bull's Strength, your characters will be +4 (or higher) than you expected.

If you make Stat Increases a regular feature you could define them as an Inherent Bonus, or some other type of bonus (including untyped). Depending on what type of bonus you decide on, it either will or won't stack with other sources of increasing stats.

Assuming you have a target range of increase in mind, your stat increases should reflect that choice. If you EXPECT people to have an enhancement bonus from an item ON TOP of the bonus you're providing, you will want a slower increase of stats. If you DON'T EXPECT (or prevent) stacking, you can have a higher rate of stat increase.

So +1/level (maximum of +5 to a single stat) is almost certainly fine if you don't have other sources - maybe even too slow AND too little! On the other hand, if they're also getting additional bonuses that might end up being too fast.

A change to attribute increases also impacts expected Damage/Level. If a Wizard gets +6 Strength, it won't affect his fireballs, but if he gets +6 INT the DC to resist his spells will be higher; consequently more opponents will fail saves. If a Fighter gets a +6 Strength, it will affect his to-hit and damage bonuses. If you establish baselines that DON'T include these increases, you'll overshoot your targets. If you establish baselines that DO include these increases but characters don't achieve them, you'll understhoot your targets.

There's this rule that i use in my games.

https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/New_Level-Dep ... iant_Rule)

In my heavily house ruled SWSE game, I give +2 every 4 levels. In addition, I run a more "epic" game where PC's can fill more than one destiny, and those typically give out another +2, whenever they occur.

deaddmwalking wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:51 pm

A change to attribute increases also impacts expected Damage/Level. If a Wizard gets +6 Strength, it won't affect his fireballs, but if he gets +6 INT the DC to resist his spells will be higher; consequently more opponents will fail saves. If a Fighter gets a +6 Strength, it will affect his to-hit and damage bonuses. If you establish baselines that DON'T include these increases, you'll overshoot your targets. If you establish baselines that DO include these increases but characters don't achieve them, you'll understhoot your targets.

Class-specific improvements?

I think PF2e does this. You boost your class primary stat the most, then either Physical or Mental at the same time, then the rest.

If you're a player and you get a stat increase, you're usually going to put it in the place that helps you the most. Very few Wizards won't boost Intelligence. With other classes they may not always boost their prime stat - sometimes a Fighter would rather improve their Will Save than get another +1 to hit and damage that doesn't really mean much.

If you give everyone an additional bonus, you KNOW where Wizards will put it. Wizards already maximize Intelligence, and they can target any save (Fortitude, Will, Reflex) depending on the target. Giving them increased DCs makes them more powerful relative to other classes unlesses defenses scale at an increased rate, too.

Generally, people recognize that casters are more powerful than other characters. You'd think that giving something to everyone equally would benefit everyone equally, but it doesn't. Just be aware of that - and if you want to avoid making casters even better you could approach it differently (like making it a class ability).

I made a MAD Mage class years ago for Feybook that split the various casting essentials between all three mental stats, and Frank hated it. HATED it.

But really, I still think it was the right solution.

In our homebrew we only have two mental stats (not three); one of them determines both the number of spells you know and how difficult they are to resist; the other determines how many spells you're able to cast in a given timeframe. Frank hates that most characters have two different caster levels - a specialty level that is higher and a universal level that is lower. Ie, a Fire Mage can cast 3rd level fire spells and 2nd level from all other schools.

I did it like this:

INT bonus to more spells known, add to ranged rolls vs Touch AC
WIS score is mana, each spell costs spell level in mana, spell levels 2 and less than highest are free
CHA added to damage and healing effects, determines save DC

This looks like a good idea:

https://www.enworld.org/threads/decoupl ... se.680015/

If stats don't matter, why have them?

No, seriously. Why?

Sacred Cow.

Or grognards want to roll for stats, get 16 through 18 for everything, but beg the DM for a reroll if they roll no higher than 6.

deaddmwalking wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:57 pm

If stats don't matter, why have them?

No, seriously. Why?

Yes, ability scores (except Strength) are quite pointless mechanically, the ways you allocate them to be optimized are rather trivial and attempts at making more ability score distributions be useful only briefly make them more interesting, before you just settle into whichever build you like.

However, from a roleplaying perspective, they're a cute little hint at describing your character, just like your alignment and fantasy racial stereotype.

What's that RPG some here mention from time to time, the Conan one or whatever that doesn't have stats but does have a list of traits that add bonuses and options instead.

If everyone wants to hit with a melee/throw/shoot/spell attack, you shouldn't have to max out this or that stat, but instead decide "my character trained in x style" and get an equivalent bonus.
At level 1, assume it's an 18/+4 in the "primary stat".
So that's just 4+level (pseudo BAB) for everyone, with a tiny bonus if the character decides to invest more per-level resources into it.

There's always Mutants & Masterminds, which lets you buy up to your "cap" to be level-appropriate very easily and then allows you to make some slight tradeoffs between attack and damage or whatever. Then of course other parts of character creation go immediately into crazy town but at least your d20 stats are on the RNG