D&D, multiple attacks, and an alternative

[deaddmwalking]

That's funny, because that's not at all what I've gathered from this thread.

In 3.5, warriors are underpowered relative to wizards/clerics. Giving them 'extra' abilities can help to narrow that gap. House rules can further narrow the gap (ie, allowing a full attack to happen with a standard action, and allowing a character to attack at multiple points during a move), but these changes can have pretty big downstream effects. Focus on what your desired result is and work from there. If you can't clearly state your desired result, you should not be trying to state an ideal. Allowing a person with two-weapon fighting to 'nova' every other round, or a fighter with a +6/+1 attack bonus to 'nova' every round may not be what you want - so before you say '+1 point per success, nova costs 2 points', actually decide if that's what you WANT.

Damage output isn't the end-all be-all of combat. A wizard can launch a 10d6 fireball in a huge area. They can also do area denial (like web or entangle. It doesn't take too much to do both. With a warrior, you have to spare a moment to consider whether the attack 'makes sense' to you and to other people. Most people are okay with the idea of doing one attack to every creature in reach (whirlwind attack - up to 8 targets in a 5' reach) but don't like the idea of doing 8 attacks against a single creature. It's absolutely okay to allow warriors to impart a status effect in addition to or in lieu of damage; you just want to make sure you 'cost it' appropriately.

In my mind, if I were going for something similar to what you've described, I would allow them to spend small number of points for a boost, and larger number of points for a bigger boost. Then I would decide what would give them points. A successful maneuver (like disarm) might give them points; a successful attack might give them +1 point and a critical hit might give them +2 points. Getting wounded (bloodied) might give them +4 points. Then using those points would give them +1d10 damage per point. Every point value I award incentivizes that behavior; the more points the more it is rewarded. Giving +4 points for being 'bloodied' encourages warriors to 'trade blows' but that might not be what you want. Deciding if they only get points for melee attacks (or can only spend points on melee attacks) also has a major impact on how this class plays.

You have to decide what you want the character to do before you can decide how to create mechanics around it. 6 pages and about as many threads and you haven't actually done that.

[JonSetanta]

Points taken. While I have stated certain "trope examples" of what my ideal Fighter-Plus might be, these kinds of statements get shot down immediately.

I've listed sample Metastrikes I pretty much imitated from Metamagic capabilities, but that wasn't well received either.

6 pages, yes, but the other threads were about different topics. Sometimes I do a different archetype homebrew (like the Stealth feat), sometimes it's just vague notions that turn out to be a concept I didn't see from years ago, something someone here already did that was nearly identical.

So, I'll take some time to think about your suggestion as far as, well, an Ideal, then begin posting the actual class. I think I've gathered enough comparison and feedback and it's time to start actually doing something and then rework it as it's read and commented on.

https://imgur.com/gallery/Wx7HlZ2

[deaddmwalking]

@JonSetanta,

I believe I've read all of your posts. I don't recall seeing your 'trope examples'. Do you mind linking to them or restating them?

With new players, I often ask them to start by providing a character from a book or movie that they're interested in and then we translate it into D&D. I usually emphasize that some abilities are 'high-level' but we want to build the concept in at a low-level. If a high-level warrior is slicing tanks in half, a low-level warrior should be able to slice through armor. If a high-level warrior is able to touch your pressure points to make your head explode 18 seconds later, a low-level warrior should be able to touch your pressure points and make you feel debilitating pain.

In this thread, your original post stated:

So, rather than grant multiple attacks, I propose a melee combatant have a Melee DC of 10 + 1/2 BAB + STR or DEX, opposed by a Reflex save for half or some kind of "AC roll" adding armor bonuses and Dodge together (-10 from what the normal static AC value is), and this single attack is an area attack hitting all enemies surrounding the attacker at the same time. A successful save reduces damage to half and negates all rider effects.
Damage output would have to scale with level or BAB much like spell damage does in 3.X.
Something like (base weapon damage) + STR or DEX + (2, 3, or 4 per BAB).

This way, special abilities could add rider effects such as Stun, Prone, Fear, Bleed, extra elemental damage, wider reach, and so on.

Ranged attacks would be a Line, Cone, or Burst (centered on the point of impact) but only one attack per turn. Similar rider effects.

In this specific formulation, warriors are losing the ability to make multiple attacks against a single foe, and are instead receiving the ability to make attacks against everyone in reach. In the case of being attacked by a swarm of gnolls, this is probably 'better'. When facing a single dragon, it is notably worse. If you allow a Reflex Save, creatures with Evasion may take no damage at all. Even from the perspective of 'reducing the number of rolls at the table' it does not yield the result you desire - now I make one attack (no roll for the attack, but a roll for damage) and everyone in my area makes a resist check. Instead of 1 attack roll/1 damage roll I have 1 damage roll/8 resist checks in the 'optimal scenario' where this change is relevant.

In addition, it's not clear NARRATIVELY what you're modeling. Mechanically you're giving up things that give you a bonus to attack (like flanking or higher ground) unless you're incorporating those into the save TNs, so it's not clear how you would do a 'wild swing' that you can represent with Power Attack (penalty to attack roll, bonus to damage). Since RPGs are a game of imagination, you have to consider how an action is described in conjunction with the mechanical effects. When you tell people that they can't do something they expect to do because it happens in real life, you're losing some of what makes RPGs appealing - it's more like a board game with specific allowed moves. Most people aren't going to protest when you give MORE OPTIONS, but when you're curtailing options because, and please correct me if I'm mischaracterizing your position, it annoys you when other people roll a lot of dice on their turn, people are going to respond less enthusiastically.

I think most people will be happy if you're able to reduce the complexity in dice rolls/math if you're able to maintain the outputs... But that's harder than it sounds. If my current attack routine is +16/+11/+6/+1, allowing a single attack for x4 damage might be intuitive and initially popular with players. But they may not like it when monsters are getting 8x damage because they had one good roll. If your goal is to largely maintain existing outputs with a single roll (or no roll) I'm not sure you can succeed. If you're willing to change existing outputs to meet your goal, that's probably easier, but you do need to define what you expect to happen.

[JonSetanta]

I believe I've read all of your posts. I don't recall seeing your 'trope examples'. Do you mind linking to them or restating them?

With new players, I often ask them to start by providing a character from a book or movie that they're interested in and then we translate it into D&D. I usually emphasize that some abilities are 'high-level' but we want to build the concept in at a low-level. If a high-level warrior is slicing tanks in half, a low-level warrior should be able to slice through armor. If a high-level warrior is able to touch your pressure points to make your head explode 18 seconds later, a low-level warrior should be able to touch your pressure points and make you feel debilitating pain.

Tropes from my favorite website next to YouTube:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... ingBruiser
https://www.cinemablend.com/news/256470 ... hey-can-do

I did state earlier, to paraphrase, my ideal high-level Fighter/Warrior/Warblade/Crusader/FightanMan is Thor. Literally, MCU-wise, whatever, he's the penultimate Lightning Bruiser.
While he can't sprint like Superman or some Dragonball character, he takes hits that would make a (well, OK he is an Asgardian) Normal Human's organs explode out their back, zaps people with lightning when he hits with Mjolnir, outright FLINGS HIMSELF in straight lines through the sky and can even "hover" by spinning the hammer.
While I don't want to make an actual "You are the demigod of thunder" class, it's those capabilities I've been writing on a DOC on my laptop.
Different options, much like how Feat or Spell selection determines the combat role of the other classes, but mostly in the focus of:

• Mobility
• AOE (spend resource)
• Maneuver-like Combo Strikes that either do +1/+0/-1 Combo points depending on damage output, status effect, or physical combat tricks like "plow target 5 feet per BAB in a straight line" or just "Trip"
• Defenses that border on Weebtastic Fantasy, such as (well, Psionic emulation) Immovability as an Immediate action, Iron Heart Surge, something like the ever-present Sonic Step or Flash Step (teleport without being a teleport?)

I have that "Attack Anything" concept still going as a theme. I figured, if a non-caster non-skillmonkey were to apply their "I attack" routine, but actually DO THINGS with it other than just damage an enemy, and yes the Destroy Mental Concept wasn't well received, I do have other things in mind like "attack AOE", which would essentially spend a Combo point to nullify certain zones of area effects, "Halt" to literally stop the motion for 1 round of anything the PC hits be it a monster, a projectile, their own falling momentum...
"Intercept", a Dragonball/some other obscure anime trope, where the hero lunges in to parry or take a hit for someone within move range; this would be an Immediate Action and single Move action spent from the next round.

As for "Parry", I see this kind of defensive tactic in comics, films, cartoons, real life, everywhere except D&D... and even then, for whatever reason, the Death Knight has it; as an Immediate Action they get +8 AC for 1 round (5e).
This is shit. I have a copy of the Conan RPG, and it's more like an opposed attack roll, the Parry roll replacing AC, which would be advantageous if defending an ally that has lower AC.


As far as giving players rationalizations for the How and Why, I considered different "origins" for a Paragon.
1/128th god, like so insignificant they have to Charles Atlas their way into power.
... Train hard.
From Another Planet.
They are Just That Strong/Fast.

Between levels 1-5 a Paragon would pretty much be limited to Jump for getting to difficult places, Basic-rank Strikes, maybe just a few Metastrikes to spend Combo points on, but pretty much just 1-2 attacks (depending on 2-handed, TWF, or 2 Slam attacks) varying between the "setup" +1 Combo blows and single-attack with BAB-scaling damage (that DOES NOT increase with criticals, only weapon dice and stat damage would), some level-appropriate debuffs (-1 Combo), with the occasional Metastrike short-range AOE (think like Burning Hands with the PC's chosen element focus, -1 Combo) or some kind of half-Whirlwind sweep that hits 3-5 adjacent targets and eventually becomes a true full-circle at Level 6 (+0 Combo).

[deaddmwalking]

I did state earlier, to paraphrase, my ideal high-level Fighter/Warrior/Warblade/Crusader/FightanMan is Thor. Literally, MCU-wise, whatever, he's the penultimate Lightning Bruiser.

From your link:

Lightning Bruiser
This trope only exists relative to other characters in universe. A statement that a character is strong, fast, and durable does not define them as a Lightning Bruiser; most Action Heroes already demonstrate those qualities.

A character is a Lightning Bruiser if they are explicitly stated to be stronger, faster, and tougher than most of the other characters, or if it is stated explicitly that another character of comparable speed or strength is a Fragile Speedster or a Mighty Glacier.[/quote]

As I'm sure you'll recognize, being stronger/faster/tougher than everyone else isn't usually the goal in a cooperative game, and most of the features you're looking for are available in some form or another... But, a class lets you package them all together.

While he can't sprint like Superman or some Dragonball character, he takes hits that would make a (well, OK he is an Asgardian) Normal Human's organs explode out their back, zaps people with lightning when he hits with Mjolnir, outright FLINGS HIMSELF in straight lines through the sky and can even "hover" by spinning the hammer.
While I don't want to make an actual "You are the demigod of thunder" class, it's those capabilities I've been writing on a DOC on my laptop.

Okay, this makes sense to me. If we file off the serial numbers, you want a bruiser with mobility options. Since these are all basically mid-level options, the easiest way to implement this without major changes to the combat system (like creating rules around parry) is to implement this as a Prestige Class. If you were playing at my table and we were doing 3.5, I'd probably offer you the following:

Lightning Bruiser
Hit Die d12
Requirements: +5 BAB, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Jump (5 Ranks)
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (all skills, taken indiviually), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, Use Magic Device, Use Rope (honestly, class skills are a dumpster fire but since I'm proposing this for 3.5, who cares).
Skill Points at Each Level: 6+Int

Base Attack Bonus: Good
Saves: All Good
Class Features
1st Full-Attack on the Run, Leaping Charge
2nd Run-by Attack
3rd Go Ahead, Hit Me
4th Lightning Strike
5th Rumbling Thunder

Full Attack on the Run: The lightning bruiser may make a full attack as a standard action (rather than a full action). Combined with Spring Attack, they may make as many attacks as they are entitled to before, during, and after moving (ie, a Lightning Bruiser with Speed 30 and 2 attacks may move 10 feet, attack once, move 10 feet, make a second attack, then move 10 additional feet, ending his turn).
Leaping Charge: The Lightning Bruiser gains a bonus on Jump checks equal to their level. They may ignore difficult terrain by leaping over it. They do not take a penalty to Jump checks for not having a running start.
Run-By Attack: During the Lightning Bruiser's turn, opponents provoke an attack of opportunity from the Lightning Bruiser when he moves beyond their reach. The Lightning Bruiser still provokes attacks of opportunity for leaving a threatened area as normal (ie, if the Lightning Bruiser leaves a threatened area, he may make an attack of opportunity against the foe he is leaving but they may also make an AoO against him. The defenders AoO is resolved first.) A Lightning Bruiser may only make one such attack of opportunity per opponent per round.
Go Ahead, Hit Me At 4th level a Lightning Bruiser can choose to make an Endurance save in place of a Will or Reflex Save. If a successful save normally results in a reduced effect (such as half damage), the Lightning Bruiser suffers no effect with a successful save.
Lightning Strike As the Lightning Bruiser moves, his weapon flashes at lightning speed, damaging those near him. During his turn, a Lightning Bruiser may expend an Attack of Opportunity to inflict damage to creatures in a number of squares he threatens during his movement equal to his class level. Any opponents in the designated squares take damage equal to the Lightning Bruiser's weapon damage. Opponents may make a Reflex Saving Throw (10 + 1/2 Lightning Bruiser's Level + STR) for half damage.
Rumbling Thunder The Lightning Bruiser may make a full attack when making an Attack of Opportunity.

[JonSetanta]

That's a very Tome take on the idea, but I'm going for something like a Warblade (versatility) combined with the mobility of a Sorcerer that specialized in Conjuration/Transmutation, things like Jump (which you did) https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JumpPhysics, Feather Fall on self (the Halt ability/feat) or at least something like a Heroic Landing ability that would allow a fall from any distance as long as the warrior could land on their feet (activate a stance/pose?), the trope here https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... uiteFlight explains various methods of fly-without-actually-flying.

Compare to Frank's Tome Crusader, a full class that can, at high levels, move something like 300 feet in a single round and deal potential deathblows.

[deaddmwalking]

I'd throw in Slow Fall 30 (1st) 60 (3rd) any (5th). But adding actual flight is pretty easy to do with an item; I'm not sure it is intrinsic to the CLASS, but may be an interesting VARIATION of the class.

That's part of the discussion with PhoneLobster in the other thread - a class is a set of universal features that everyone who is a member of that class gets. Using those universal features in different ways is part of the fun. All of the attacks/damage shenanigans in the class above work better with additional mobility/increased speed, but the class doesn't provide them. Getting fast movement/fly speed let you use your class abilities differently/more effectively, but you don't have to demand the class provide it. If you do and someone else likes the class but DOESN'T want any 'not-quite-flight' powers, then you have to make an alternate class feature that appeals to them instead. Or just leave it out and let items/spells fill the gap.

[JonSetanta]

... Or a feat. Heh.

I suppose I could make a Paragon PrC that even a Wizard could qualify for by level 5, they get Fly at that time, but the whole "fling yourself into the sky or at your foe" seems more of an accomplishment of STR.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Why feather fall when you can just make them immune to falling damage altogether? Just let them Hulk jump around.

[JonSetanta]

Why feather fall when you can just make them immune to falling damage altogether? Just let them Hulk jump around.

Eh, Wuxia came to mind, but that's more of a Monk thing.

To reiterate, "a Heroic Landing ability that would allow a fall from any distance as long as the warrior could land on their feet (activate a stance/pose?)"

[merxa]

Being immune to falling damage seems fine to me, if a PC is lucky it'll come in handy at least once during a given campaign. But if that seems too generous for fighters you could require a check:

Falling Star (Ex), whenever your character would take falling damage, you may immediately make a jump (high) check and subtract the distance fallen by the height of your jump. If your jump is an equal or greater amount then the fall (or high jump 200+ feet), you instead take no falling damage and do not land prone.
~

Of course to make this ability any good, you should probably hand out:

Incredible Leap (Su), when calculating the long or high distance jumped, multiple the result by 10.
~
I'd hand out both abilities at the same level, or perhaps incredible leap a level early. In a 3.x framework, getting Incredible Leap at level 2 or 3 would be generous, at level 4 or 5 it would be fair, and otherwise it'll just be business as usual, ie fuck you, play a caster you weeaboo.

[JonSetanta]

Having dabbled in Exalted, I always grabbed the "jump over a mountain" ability when I could.
No Exalted player ever questioned the How or What of it, you just.. do it.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Having dabbled in Exalted, I always grabbed the "jump over a mountain" ability when I could.
No Exalted player ever questioned the How or What of it, you just.. do it.

If 'Jump Good!' is good enough for Samurai Jack, it's good enough for most tables.

[JonSetanta]

Jumping at least 20 feet up/forward from a standing position is, oh I dunno, a more common superpower that The Most Common Superpower.