Worst Official DM NPCs In Published RPG Settings

[Harshax]

I’ll ask again, since there seems to be a lot of parsing replies going on. There is a 0-level NPC with godlike powers in an old AD&D module. There’s no reason he should be level 0, given his psionic capabilities. He is literally presented as a way to throw level/power metrics on its ass. Does that count?

[Avoraciopoctules]

Giving the godlike psychic extremely low durability seems like it would open the door for them to kill themselves really easily. As DM, I definitely enjoy having enemies fuck up visibly. Makes it feel less like the game is all about setting up opposition to the main characters.

Hell, their hit points will be so low that housecat attacks, caltrops, and food poisoning could all be fatal threats. The moment they slip up and don't use exactly the right power to survive, they're dead.

I guess it depends on what kind of script the DM is given. I would love to follow along if one of the PCs gives them an excuse to accidentally self-immolate.

[Harshax]

There’s plenty of examples of a level 2 enemy that can cast fireball or haste because of reasons. I’m kind of lost in the whole lady of pain argument, but honestly am not engaging.

[WalkTheDinosaur]

In that same vein there's also low level demons and lantern archons and shit with at-will Greater Teleport. It's not exactly "DMPC" but it is in the spirit of "this thing would wreck your shit if played smart but I'll keep sandbagging as long as you stay on the rails".

We could also do 1e Drow, who are mostly just level 2 fighters but get piles of free spells and OP racials and +2 gear you're not allowed to steal. That survived into 3e as a level adjustment bigger than the CR adjustment, so NPCs get all that shit for cheap or free but a PC drow sucks.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

In that same vein there's also low level demons and lantern archons and shit with at-will Greater Teleport. It's not exactly "DMPC" but it is in the spirit of "this thing would wreck your shit if played smart but I'll keep sandbagging as long as you stay on the rails".

If we're including monsters, that really opens the floodgates. My first thought were the CR 9, but capable of using three two 9th levels spells as SLAs, Adamantine Clockwork Horrors from the MM II.

[WalkTheDinosaur]

I’ll ask again, since there seems to be a lot of parsing replies going on. There is a 0-level NPC with godlike powers in an old AD&D module. There’s no reason he should be level 0, given his psionic capabilities. He is literally presented as a way to throw level/power metrics on its ass. Does that count?

AD&D psionics are batshit. I had a character back in the day who had Disintegrate at low level because lol wild talent table. What's the name of the module?

I actually like the idea of D&D supporting sages and civilian clerics who can cast Commune or Remove Curse without being any better than the average swineherd at getting hit in the face. It does fuck with level expectations if you let them pick up combat spells though. I probably wouldn't do it with psions because they're supposed to get powers from being all ubermenschy and I can much more easily accept that anyone with good psionic powers is also inexplicably good at fighting.

[Dogbert]

No they aren't. I don't know why people think this, but it isn't true.

Lets see...

Spell Resistance
A deity has spell resistance of 32 + its divine rank.

Good luck having a chance in hell at beating that before the endgame! (provided you're fighting a -demigod- at most, that is!). As I said, defacto immune.

[Omegonthesane]

While my unstoppable god killing 15th level optimized character's balls are on the tip of my tongue, did I mention I'm TOTALLY outraged at DM penis extension NPCs and their masturbatory nature?

Context is very important.

Wanking to your supposedly possible character optimisation is a private affair; whipping out your DM penis extension NPC directly interferes with the enjoyment of others.

[PhoneLobster]

Wanking to your supposedly possible character optimisation is a private affair

Private? Context?

It just now happened right here.

In front of everyone.

Loudly and proudly.

The audience, for instance, this audience, is part of the fantasy.

[Omegonthesane]

You know what I meant. Don't be fucking disingenuous. A forum post about character optimisation does not disrupt other people's enjoyment the way overriding and blocking player agency with a DM penis extension NPC does. The only thing conflating the two achieves is to stifle discussion.

[merxa]

presumably forum posts would never ruin enjoyment the way being disruptive during actual play would.

And one thing I've learned reading the den over the years is how much this community loves to encourage discussion, it's been especially clear this thread how much everyone encourages one another to contribute...

hehe

[Harshax]

Wasn’t there lots of opportunities to run into NPCs secretly being mortal gods during the whole Forgotten Realms story arc back in the 90s? I vaguely recall a scenario where Tempus turned out to be among our opposition and whooped are asses. Not sure if that was a published scenario or MC dickary.

[merxa]

One related question would be how ought high level / powerful NPCs be used. Should the MC never write in suchs things if they aren't level appropriate, should they proceed to excise them from any modules that are being run?

Should adventure modules never include such encounters or even friendly NPCs if the party doesn't have at least some reasonable chance of murdering them?

[Kaelik]

"Friendly" NPCs should always be in the "could be murdered by the party gang up" region. If a NPC is more powerful then that you sort or start to wonder why they would be friendly with these schmucks at all.

You could probably have a boss (of your organization, the king who hired you) be out of that power range initially, but they should also spend absolutely no time travelling with the PCs, and should just be initial negotiations and rewards types.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

No they aren't. I don't know why people think this, but it isn't true.

Lets see...

Spell Resistance
A deity has spell resistance of 32 + its divine rank.

Good luck having a chance in hell at beating that before the endgame! (provided you're fighting a -demigod- at most, that is!). As I said, defacto immune.

Because there aren't spells don't allow spell resistance... And Assay Resistance doesn't give you an easy +10 on the check... And increasing your caster level in general isn't doable via a variety of methods...

[merxa]

No they aren't. I don't know why people think this, but it isn't true.

Lets see...

Spell Resistance
A deity has spell resistance of 32 + its divine rank.

Good luck having a chance in hell at beating that before the endgame! (provided you're fighting a -demigod- at most, that is!). As I said, defacto immune.

Because there aren't spells don't allow spell resistance... And Assay Resistance doesn't give you an easy +10 on the check... And increasing your caster level in general isn't doable via a variety of methods...

Yeah i was thinking on this a bit. Odin could walk around with an antimatic field on all the time, since Odin is a deity he is immune to the impacts of it.

And since Odin has Arcane Mastery (he gets access to all spells and can invent new ones), Spontaneous Wizard Spells (he doesn't need to memorize spells, he can just cast any that exist), and Instant Counterspell (counter spelling is a free action), it would be difficult to lower his defenses with magic.

[PhoneLobster]

You know what I meant. Don't be fucking disingenuous.

Don't you be disingenuous. I'd have hoped my example of the actual context you were demanding being in public here would let you understand that it happens with more than one sort of audience. There is nothing limiting the masturbatory fantasy audience to forums only.

The bad side of "CharOp" ideas want to, and DO make it to the table with a frequency that rivals dick wavy DM characters.

Almost like it's the same motivating urge and the same failure to restrain oneself.

Again, like everything in this thread, a better understanding of what is happening here and when or how it is good or bad is what you need. Rather than a shallow attempt to declare only a super bad box and put everything in that, say it could never happen to you, and call it a day.

On some level EVERY PC is somewhere on the scale of a (hopefully metaphorical) masturbatory aid. And there are the ones that stay in the acceptable margins of that scale, even use it beneficially, and ones that exceed acceptable limits and do bad things.

In front of everybody.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

Yeah i was thinking on this a bit. Odin could walk around with an antimatic field on all the time, since Odin is a deity he is immune to the impacts of it.

And since Odin has Arcane Mastery (he gets access to all spells and can invent new ones), Spontaneous Wizard Spells (he doesn't need to memorize spells, he can just cast any that exist), and Instant Counterspell (counter spelling is a free action), it would be difficult to lower his defenses with magic.

How is it you manage to be wrong about absolutely everything?

Counterspell and Antimagic Field? Seriously?

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Maybe I'm just a fuckin' idiot who's trying to escape the horrible frigid hellscape Texas has become, but couldn't Odin invent a new spell, causing it to exist, then cast it without memorizing it? Does he have to invent spells according to some guidelines, or can he just make a Super Antimagic Field spell that cancels all magic in the same plane as him forever, with no save and no checks to counter it and also fuck your mother?

[Avoraciopoctules]

One way to fight nebulous "I win" powers is to pit them against OTHER nebulous "I win" powers. Let's say the PCs are a cabal of high grade undead, and they have figured out how to steer space rocks around. They find Atropus the undead moon, and they steer it on a crash-course towards Asgard. Is it plausible that they could protect the death-moon's glowing weak point long enough to crash land into a divine realm? Unless it counts as a [death] effect for immunity purposes, I think that should KO everything in Asgard including gods.

And to avoid making this into too much of a thread hijack, I should probably with another bad NPC... My group really hated the "redemption arc" for the antagonist in Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus. The important angel gets the CEO golden parachute, but all the rest get eaten and forgotten. It's pretty messed up!

[ColorBlindNinja61]

Maybe I'm just a fuckin' idiot who's trying to escape the horrible frigid hellscape Texas has become, but couldn't Odin invent a new spell, causing it to exist, then cast it without memorizing it? Does he have to invent spells according to some guidelines, or can he just make a Super Antimagic Field spell that cancels all magic in the same plane as him forever, with no save and no checks to counter it and also fuck your mother?

People rarely talk about custom spell creation, because it's basically magical tea party with a couple vague guidelines.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

That... sounds like a yes to me.

[Kaelik]

Yeah i was thinking on this a bit. Odin could walk around with an antimatic field on all the time, since Odin is a deity he is immune to the impacts of it.

And since Odin has Arcane Mastery (he gets access to all spells and can invent new ones), Spontaneous Wizard Spells (he doesn't need to memorize spells, he can just cast any that exist), and Instant Counterspell (counter spelling is a free action), it would be difficult to lower his defenses with magic.

How is it you manage to be wrong about absolutely everything?

Counterspell and Antimagic Field? Seriously?

An antimagic field that protects you from 99.9% of spells but which doesn't effect your buffs or your kill spells is an actual CharOp tactic that doesn't really have a good answer when a specific very dumb PC does it.

You are just in way too deep in this pretend it's easy to kill God's thing. This god is more powerful than any 10 level 15 PCs in the options open to it and you would in fact have a huge amount of difficulty fighting it.

In particular, I would love to find out what your plan to super easily deal with an AMF and "free action" counterspelling would even be.

Because your might be surprised to find out that most conjuration creation spells are mostly direct fire and Disjunction even if can technically be indirect fired around a corner at close range at CL 100 you are still going to have to do a lot of work to set that up against a god that knows everything about magic 19 weeks before it happens.

And you are still just spending a Standard action in combat to defeat something he can reapply with a free action (or swift action with certain houserules).

[ColorBlindNinja61]

You are just in way too deep in this pretend it's easy to kill God's thing.

I never said it was easy to kill a 3.X god.

I freely admit I'm losing patience with merxa saying stupid shit all the time.

This god is more powerful than any 10 level 15 PCs in the options open to it and you would in fact have a huge amount of difficulty fighting it.

True.

In particular, I would love to find out what your plan to super easily deal with an AMF and "free action" counterspelling would even be.

Firstly, let me quote the ability in question.

Instant Counterspell
Benefit
When any spell is cast within the deity’s line of sight, the deity can counterspell it as a free action, provided that the deity is capable of casting the spell immediately or has it as a spell-like ability and makes the required Spellcraft check. The use of Instant Counterspell counts against the normal number of free actions the deity is allowed each round.

The bolded line strongly implies the god can only counterspell once per round, much like a quickened spell can only be used once per round.

Because your might be surprised to find out that most conjuration creation spells are mostly direct fire and Disjunction even if can technically be indirect fired around a corner at close range at CL 100 you are still going to have to do a lot of work to set that up against a god that knows everything about magic 19 weeks before it happens.

If you can manage a 100 caster level on Disjunction, you should be able to follow that up with a CL 100 Holy Word/Blasphemy. Unless the god used Alter Reality to protect itself (which I already conceded would mean they're functionally unkillable), that tactic should kill them.

[Kaelik]

Firstly, let me quote the ability in question.

The bolded line strongly implies the god can only counterspell once per round, much like a quickened spell can only be used once per round.

The bolded line strongly implies the god can only counterspell once per round, much like a quickened spell can only be used once per round.

It doesn't actually limit it to once per round.

When performing an action within its portfolio, a deity can perform any action as a free action, as long as the check DC is equal to or less than the number on the table below. The number of free actions a deity can perform each round is also determined by the deity’s divine rank.

So it can counterspell the first 19 spells or whatever.

If you can manage a 100 caster level on Disjunction, you should be able to follow that up with a CL 100 Holy Word/Blasphemy. Unless the god used Alter Reality to protect itself (which I already conceded would mean they're functionally unkillable), that tactic should kill them.

I don't think that being able to cast a CL 100 9th level spell does mean you can cast a second CL 100 spell the same round because you generally only have one standard action, but ALSO, if you could, you might have to MOVE first because the Disjunction around the corner that hits the AMF would probably make you too far away, and all this is a target that knows your exact spellcasting 19 weeks ahead of time.