Worst Official DM NPCs In Published RPG Settings

[ColorBlindNinja61]

It doesn't actually limit it to once per round.

When performing an action within its portfolio, a deity can perform any action as a free action, as long as the check DC is equal to or less than the number on the table below. The number of free actions a deity can perform each round is also determined by the deity’s divine rank.

So it can counterspell the first 19 spells or whatever.

Thanks for quoting that line, I'd honesty forgotten about it.

I don't think that being able to cast a CL 100 9th level spell does mean you can cast a second CL 100 spell the same round because you generally only have one standard action,

Just quicken the second spell. Use a Metamagic Rod or a dozen other ways to get free quicken.

but ALSO, if you could, you might have to MOVE first because the Disjunction around the corner that hits the AMF would probably make you too far away, and all this is a target that knows your exact spellcasting 19 weeks ahead of time.

I'm not sure I understand why you need to cast Disjunction around a corner. It explicitly can destroy AMFs.

You also have a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field. If the antimagic field survives the disjunction, no items within it are disjoined.

[Kaelik]

It doesn't actually limit it to once per round.

When performing an action within its portfolio, a deity can perform any action as a free action, as long as the check DC is equal to or less than the number on the table below. The number of free actions a deity can perform each round is also determined by the deity’s divine rank.

So it can counterspell the first 19 spells or whatever.

Thanks for quoting that line, I'd honesty forgotten about it.

I don't think that being able to cast a CL 100 9th level spell does mean you can cast a second CL 100 spell the same round because you generally only have one standard action,

Just quicken the second spell. Use a Metamagic Rod or a dozen other ways to get free quicken.

but ALSO, if you could, you might have to MOVE first because the Disjunction around the corner that hits the AMF would probably make you too far away, and all this is a target that knows your exact spellcasting 19 weeks ahead of time.

I'm not sure I understand why you need to cast Disjunction around a corner. It explicitly can destroy AMFs.

You also have a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field. If the antimagic field survives the disjunction, no items within it are disjoined.

Because Disjunction is close range, so you are within counterspell range, and he can counterspell your disjunction as a free action.

So you have to cast both Disjunction and Blasphemy from behind a corner against a Mindblanked target that you don't even know the buff spells and protections of.

Unless your plan is to "just cast 21 spells in a round."

Feels like setting this up where you can get the perfect line of effect block to double cast this is very unlikely, all the more so when it relies on a magic item because unlike him, you aren't in an AMF, so his disjunction destroys your items.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

Because Disjunction is close range, so you are within counterspell range, and he can counterspell your disjunction as a free action.

Thank you for the explanation.

So you have to cast both Disjunction and Blasphemy from behind a corner against a Mindblanked target that you don't even know the buff spells and protections of.

In the case of Odin specifically, I don't think he can cast Blasphemy or Holy Word. So, he can't counterspell it. Other gods with Cleric casting could, of course.

Unless your plan is to "just cast 21 spells in a round."

That could work.

Feels like setting this up where you can get the perfect line of effect block to double cast this is very unlikely, all the more so when it relies on a magic item because unlike him, you aren't in an AMF, so his disjunction destroys your items.

You could get an AMF for yourself without it effecting you. Initiate of Mystra comes to mind.

[Kaelik]

In the case of Odin specifically, I don't think he can cast Blasphemy or Holy Word. So, he can't counterspell it. Other gods with Cleric casting could, of course.

You don't have to be able to cast a spell to counterspell it and Odin can cast Blasphemy and Holy Word by various means and I'm pretty sure you can counterspell Blasphemy with Holy Word so he wouldn't even have to use them.

You could get an AMF for yourself without it effecting you. Initiate of Mystra comes to mind.

At the point where you are proposing taking a specific very weird setting specific PrC that greatly limits your other options in order to mimic as less good version of what the God does it might be time to admit that the proposed tactic is actually pretty good.

But also, this won't work for you. Because Odin's Disjunction will still disjunction all your items through an AMF, because unlike you, he's a god.

I want to stress, were literally talking about a plan where you perfectly ambush someone who knows everything you are going to do 19 weeks before hand, use two CL 100 spells in a single round from within 40ft but around a corner, and then, having done this, the plan is STILL going to fail because he's a level 20 Wizard with access to Spell Immunity and Contingency and no reason not to Spell Immunity the spells that bypass his natural immunities to everything, and no reason not to have a Contingency that does literally anything who cares.

This is a giant pile of optimization, absolutely bullshit cheese tactics, assumptions, and all of it is still going to fail to beat the strategy that a presumably not very good optimizer came up with in like 30 seconds without paying much attention.

[WalkTheDinosaur]

I think it's pretty shit how this version of Odin is so focused on making sure he always wins that he has almost nothing in common with Odin from actual mythology. The guy Snorri Sturleson wrote about didn't have omniscient knowledge of magic and needed his ravens to go scout for him and actually uses his spear in a real fight. No mythology ever has produced anything with two pages worth of generic I-Win buttons that you need encyclopedic knowledge of a bunch of other material to even read.

The design goals for Odin's power level should have been "could be a boss fight for a hypothetical party of class leveled frost giants" or "could plausibly be the baddest dude in and around fantasy NotScandinavia". This version of Odin shot so far past that that it's unrecognizable as anything an actual culture would tell stories about, unless the DM can't understand the stat block and gives up (likely) or sandbags super hard until the PCs try to go off the rails (also likely).

[ColorBlindNinja61]

I want to stress, were literally talking about a plan where you perfectly ambush someone who knows everything you are going to do 19 weeks before hand, use two CL 100 spells in a single round from within 40ft but around a corner, and then, having done this, the plan is STILL going to fail because he's a level 20 Wizard with access to Spell Immunity and Contingency and no reason not to Spell Immunity the spells that bypass his natural immunities to everything, and no reason not to have a Contingency that does literally anything who cares.

This is a giant pile of optimization, absolutely bullshit cheese tactics, assumptions, and all of it is still going to fail to beat the strategy that a presumably not very good optimizer came up with in like 30 seconds without paying much attention.

Fair enough.

[FatR]

Why is preventing large-scale changes to the setting a bad idea, exactly?

1. There are only so many extended RPG campaigns you can run or play in your lifetime. Particularly once you and all your circle of friends get demanding jobs, and doubly so if you're not the only GM in the company, so you run your game on odd weeks and play on even ones.

2. Consequently, one eventually comes to conclusion that, at least once your gaming company had stabilized enough that you don't have to run games for people you barely know there should not be any throwaway campaigns.

(Note: this point and consequently all the corollaries below do not apply if you ARE running pickup campaigns for people you barely know, found through Internet, in such cases at least starting with a light plot where realities of the setting's politics serve as little more than an excuse for stringing together dungeon crawls is not a bad solution.)

3. Consequently, any campaign should meet the bare minimum set of standards of quality, like a game set in a particularl genre, which for DnD is high fantasy, actually doing its best to reflect good parts of that genre, and not triple-derivative drivel.

4. In famous works of high fantasy it is more common for a story to involve large-scale changes to the setting, than not. Leiber's stories are almost as low-scale as it gets, but the MCs were still involved in at least two government changes, never mind your usual foiling of world-destroying plots. Conan reshaped much of the political landscale of his continent, LotR described an end of an age, Moorcock's novels eventually involved a multiversal shakeup.

5. Furthermore "status quo forever" and "antagonists are proactive, protagonists are reactive" are writing tropes only tolerable, and then to an extent, in a serialized format, where you expect to reuse the same setting for a long time. But, going back to #1, the probability of running two campaigns plot-heavy enough for changes to the setting to even be in question in the same setting is not actually that big. I'd even say, it is fairly low. So why not go wild?

[Whatever]

It's pretty stupid to have players tell a story that is ultimately meaningless. And that's true BOTH when the setting can't change and when it's constantly changing.

If you can't found a kingdom or overthrow the empire or even rebuild a town, then you're not a hero, you're just a tourist. You get to see all the cool stuff but it was there before you came and it'll be there after you leave. All you did was sightseeing.

But if those things are happening every week, then it's just as irrelevant whether you did them or not. Rome had 6 different emperors in the span of 4 months, during the year 238. A fun piece of trivia, but not a great story for the individuals involved.

So, you really do want a setting that can change significantly with PC actions, but also one that's static enough for those changes to persist.

[ColorBlindNinja61]

I seem to remember a number of D&D modules use the Demon Lords and Archdevils as Penis Extension NPCs. Paizo was particularly fond of this, like in Savage Tide, where they try to force the party to ally themselves with several Demon Lords to fight Demogorgon.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I seem to remember a number of D&D modules use the Demon Lords and Archdevils as Penis Extension NPCs. Paizo was particularly fond of this, like in Savage Tide, where they try to force the party to ally themselves with several Demon Lords to fight Demogorgon.

Pathfinder definitely still did this with archfiends and runelords. They did a little better, but Wrath of the Righteous absolutely was willing to push you around with Nocticula and Sorshen gets the Elminster treatment going into 2nd edition.

[Kevin Mack]

[quote="Avoraciopoctules"][quote="ColorBlindNinja61"]I seem to remember a number of D&D modules use the Demon Lords and Archdevils as Penis Extension NPCs. Paizo was particularly fond of this, like in Savage Tide, where they try to force the party to ally themselves with several Demon Lords to fight Demogorgon.[/quote]

Pathfinder definitely still did this with archfiends and runelords. They did a little better, but Wrath of the Righteous absolutely was willing to push you around with Nocticula and Sorsohen gets the Elminster treatment going into 2nd edition.[/quote]

Which I find particularly distastefull (Not so much Nocticula but Sorshen basically having an out of nowwhere 180 on her personality and basically getting away with everything scott free because she's James Jacobs favorite.)

[OgreBattle]

What makes a Runelord's identity distinct from a demonlord or other somethinglord?

[Avoraciopoctules]

What makes a Runelord's identity distinct from a demonlord or other somethinglord?

They're archmages with some flavor of immortality and a bunch of seven deadly sins themed loot + minions. Paizo tends to give them piles of inherent bonuses from wishes, artifacts, custom super-templates. It's about 50/50 between them being intended as Final Bosses for endgame parties and just being untouchable super NPCs.

[Dogbert]

Does a runelord count as RPeen if the whole AP is a second order idiot plot anyway?