Vampire the Masquerade 5e- Actually a huge step up?

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Vampire the Masquerade 5e- Actually a huge step up?

Post by Prak »

Everyone here who knows me knows that I'm kinda World of Darkness trash. The longest running game I've ever been in was a game of Werewolf the Apocalypse that I joined because I was tired of losing Friday Night Magic tournaments so I decided to strike up a convo with the people who were playing ...some kind of rpg in the back of the game shop every Friday, and I found they were playing Werewolf, and I joined, and I had a lot of fun, despite my characters frequently dying.

So, when Loading Ready Run announced they were going to do a short Vampire the Masquerade campaign on their weekly actual play stream Dice Friends, I was super excited, also because it was going to be run by the person who relatively recently joined the troupe who I knew was himself a big VtM fan, and learned actually writes for Vampire.

As I was watching their three session game, I decided I really wanted to run my own Vampire game, and V5 looked like a huge improvement over Revised. And New World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness does not exist in my mind. I've been reading the V5 book, and... I'm actually liking the book a lot compared to Revised WW books.

V5 Changes
  • No more variable target numbers. You're counting dice that come up 6 or higher.
  • No more Blood Pool. You have a 0-5 Hunger trait, and you roll to see if you get hungrier rather than tracking a meta-currency.
  • No more botches, no more exploding 10s. There are Bestial Failures and Messy Criticals, both of which are way more interesting than simply "Lol, you botch and your arm falls off" and 10s can still count more, but not like they did in Revised
  • The book is a lot more readable! Mostly.
Talking About Those Changes
Hunger and Hunger Dice
So, like I said, now you're tracking how hungry you are instead of how much metaphysical blood points are in you. To go with this, there is a mechanic called Hunger Dice. Basically, when you're making a roll (other than Willpower, Humanity, or a Check, which is when you're rolling just a single die, rather than a pool), you take a number of dice from your pool equal to your current Hunger and make them Hunger Dice. Hunger Dice enable the mechanics of Messy Crits and Bestial Failures.

Dice Mechanics
A 1 is no longer a botch, and no longer subtracts successes. 10s don't explode. However, every pair of 10s in your roll is counted double. So if you roll three 10s, that's actually five hits, and if you roll four 10s, that's actually eight hits. 1s are just "not hits."
(note- V5 uses the old terminology of "successes" but AS really had a good idea when it termed dice that come up TN or higher as "hits." So I use that terminology.)

Messy Crits and Bestial Failures
If a normal die comes up a 1, that's just "not a hit." If you have no hits, you just fail. If a Hunger Die comes up a 1, that's "not a hit," but if you otherwise fail the roll due to no hits coming up, it's a bestial failure.

If a normal die comes up 10, that's just a hit, but every pair of 10s counts double. If a Hunger Die comes up 10 and your roll succeeds, that's a Messy Critical. You absolutely do the thing you were trying to do, and you do it well, but your Beast does it.

So, say you're trying to remove the back seat of a van in motion so you can throw it at a werewolf that is pursuing you on a motorcycle, and you get a messy crit. You absolutely take that seat out, but less by actually disconnecting the mechanisms and being gentle, and more by just ripping the metal apart. Or you Messy Crit on a drive check while trying to lose said pursuing werewolves on motorcycles, and your Beast is like "Oh, let me!" and so what was supposed to be just a pursuit becomes a frantic curb stomping of said werewolves and their motorcycles with your van.

Bestial Failures take the former role of botches. There are no botches, there are Bestial Failures. And it doesn't matter how many Hunger Dice come up 1s on your failed roll. So, where as in Revised World of Darkness games where, say, you botch a check to smash a jeep window and your ST says "you lose your arm! HAWHAW!" in V5, a Bestial Failure basically just means "well, you failed, and something less than ideal happens. Like you have to act out a compulsion, or you total your van and so lose a dot of Resources for a bit until you can recover it (but because it was the result of a Bestial Failure, maybe it doesn't take as long to recover that dot. Note, you just take time to recover a lost dot of an Advantage, you don't have to spend XP to rebuy it).

The Book
Holy fuck is this book more readable than Revised books. The layout is, generally, very clean, and uses dark text (either black or a dark rust red) on white backgrounds. Sidebars don't have weird dark backgrounds with low contrast text that blends into them. There are no weird crazy fonts that are illegible.

For the main text of the book.

The core book *does* begin with 28 pages of in-universe text, which is presented as a packet of information shared by a vampire to their childer in lieu of actually teaching them about the Night personally. This packet of information ranges from fairly clean, basic psuedo-typewriter text printed on plain slightly-darker-than-white paper, to plain black text on plain white paper transcripts of virtual conversations, to notes in a handwriting script that is actually overall more readable than the psuedo-typewriter stuff, and so on. There is some stuff that is difficult to read, such as letters on paper that has been torn up and crinkled, or a note in I'm guessing cyrillic cursive, which is maybe readable to someone who knows cyrillic cursive, but my inability to read it is... not important. It's "oh, someone wrote a note in cursive cyrillic on this page, ok, guess I'll just skip over that and read the transcribed exchange." This information is... not unimportant, but it's more set dressing than vital information about how to play. You could skip these 28 pages, and probably miss nothing of importance other than "what does the Second Inquisition know about Vampire weaknesses" that I'm guessing you can find elsewhere.

Spoilered images from the book, cuz they're screenshots and stretch the page
Image
Image
The In-Universe Pages

Image
Image
The Rules Pages

The "worst" that the main pages get so far is in the pages talking about the clans, where the first page for each clan gets a special treatment, or the rare page that is white text on a dark background for pages that are basically asides.

Image
This is *still readable*, and mind you, I'm reading the pdf of a 7" Nook.

Image
This is the "worst" that special pages in the clan section gets, and it's still clear text on a contrasting background.
Now, I haven't read the whole book. And I'm reading on a nook, so I can zoom in to focus on and enlarge a section of text. But this is leaps and bounds above the old WoD "lets make a page that looks like literal shit for Edge and Theme."

Things I Don't Like
...

I haven't yet found anything I don't like. My experience with World of Darkness is-
Step 1: Want to run a game
Step 2: Have a cool idea
Step 3: Look to see what the books say about the thing you want to do
Step 4: "Well that's shit, guess I'll just write my own thing"
Repeat Steps 2-4 until you no longer want to run or have written your own game.
So far, there are parts that I think are perhaps a bit needlessly complex. I conceptually like the whole blood alchemy/humours of the blood thing (ie, if you drink melancholic blood, you feel a bit lazy), but I don't know how well it works in practice. The idea that you need to drink certain kinds of blood to improve your disciplines is... odd. I feel like it probably works in practice, but conceptually, I'm still holding on to Den Wisdom like "you have do X to improve X is needless accounting" so I'm not sure about it.

I imagine that as I read more stuff I'll find things that just don't work for me, overall, this new Vampire edition is... really good.

The Nazi Question
A couple years ago, there was a big to do about Nazi dog whistles in V5 stuff. OPP did not have a great response. The big thing I remember was a roll example that had a pool result in "1, 4, 8, 8." But there was also stuff about neo-nazi Brujah. I don't know how much there was. In the V5 core book, I have not seen a single example that actually uses numbers, they only talk about how many dice are in the hypothetical pool, and how many successes come up. I even looked for the specific example, and it does not seem to exist in this book. The Brujah write up does mention neo-nazis, but as a single example in a list of possible Brujah fledgelings. I have not seen anything that is ..."pro-Nazi" in the book. Looking at the people who are representing the brand, the people I've seen are pretty much all white, but they seem to be pretty diverse within whiteness. Lots of women, at least one man who I know is queer (either gay or bisexual, I'm not certain, and while I'm curious, it's not polite to tweet him and say "hey! what are you?"), and overall is pretty reflective of the people I knew when I played World of Darkness-- a lot of counter culture looking goth/punk/queer women, and a lot of white guys who are maybe not super woke, but at least do not harbor genuine offensive beliefs. These people give me a very good feeling about the culture of World of Darkness' development. I do not get any sense of alt right trolls or dog whistlers or otherwise shit people when I read the book and watch videos posted on YouTube representing the brand.

The book includes an appendix which is called "Advice for Considerate Play." It starts with a short section talking about identities, and recognizes that mistakes are sometimes made, that it is understandable, but they are still mistakes. It suggests embracing the opportunity to play with identities, rather than excluding them for fear of doing it wrong, and if you're concerned that you're doing it wrong, ask someone who's real life experience is the thing you're playing for their insight (which I'm a bit two minds on, it's asking people to do emotional labor, but it's also telling you to be open to learning).

The very next section, on the first page of this appendix, talks about fascism in play, and begins by saying
Vampire the Masquerade, p421, Appendix III: Advice for Considerate Play, Fascism in Play wrote:Vampire: The Masquerade is not a
fascist-friendly game. If you are a neo-Nazi, "alt-righter", or whatever you’re calling yourself nowadays, we urge you to put this book down and call someone who you trust to talk about where you went so wrong in your life."
And then it goes on to discuss that vampire society is monstrous, and so there may some fascist ideas in it, and encourages you to fix such things.

The appendix also talks about sexual violence, with a sadly startling amount of self-awareness about the fact that vampires are inherently metaphors for human predation and ignoring consent. It draws stark contrast between this in game attitude and the fact that outside the game, you need to be cognizant and respectful of consent, sensitive to the fact that it could be triggering for players who have themselves had their consent violated in their real lives, and talks about how to handle that. V5 has a thing called Chronicle Tenets, which is to say a set of guidelines for the chronicle to provide an agreed upon moral framework that works for the kind of game your group wants to play, and when a character breaks one, there is an in-game consequence (likely in the form of Stains, which is basically damage to your Humanity track).

The appendix then goes on to discuss what it calls "Calibration Techniques," tools you can use to foster a safe and welcoming play space. Lines and Veils are things that players can say "Absolutely no {X} in game" (a Line) and "I'm ok with this happening, but lets not actually play it out" (a Veil). For example, a group might decide that Rape is a Line, and that the game will not even touch on or mention it, and consensual sex between PCs is a Veil, and so the game will fade to black, rather than discussing who does what to who and for how many pickles. It talks about fading to black in more detail next, then The Stoplight System, where you have green, yellow, and red dots on the table, and players can simply touch them to say "this is fine, but lets get more intense," "I'm ok with this, but I don't want to get more intense" or "This is uncomfortable, can we stop this scene?" There's discussion of the X Card system, which is basically just the Red stoplight, Ok check-ins from Larping, where you simply flash an "ok" sign to another player to check in with them, and they respond with just "thumbs up," "thumbs down" or "so-so" hand sign, and if it's not thumbs up, you stop to talk about it, "The Door is Always Open" which basically affirms that it is perfectly ok for a player to leave a session for any reason, and play should stop until they're ok again or have left the premises, and Debriefing, discussing the session when it's done, and is kind of "RPG session aftercare." Which I think is a hilarious way to look at it and is actually probably a really good way to approach a game that can be intentionally disturbing, like Vampire.

The Debrief
The World of Darkness of yore had a lot of problems, from a bad system that had to be mind caulked, to books that were illegible in parts, to being written with an edgelord mentality. The run up to V5 showed like they might be returning to form. But looking at the book that is basically the flag ship of the Current World of Darkness... I like where things are at. Someone listened to the uproar about the things coming to light in the run up, and made course corrections. Are there still upsetting things in the book? Yeah. It's a game about people who use humans as cattle. But it's written with a care that shows that the characters are not the players, and that you can have a game about that without letting those attitudes bleed into the real world. Instead of essays from isolated mid-western white boys about how "you're playing the game wrong!" the book talks about how to make a game about terrible people a safe place for the players. The people who are the face of the game and the new take on the World of Darkness seem like good people, albeit with something of a monotone skin pallet (which is kind of just a reality of the game industry, and let's be honest, it's a European property now, specifically north-eastern Europe, so, yeah, there are a lot of white people. It's something I'm hoping they're working on fixing).

The people who are working on Vampire and the World of Darkness now seem to be people who love it, truly and appropriately. The old guard of White Wolf were not people who "loved" their game, they were people who were obsessively possessive of it, and would let you play with it so long as you played by their rules.
Last edited by Prak on Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Anon_issue »

Well, you do make it sound okay. I haven't seriously looked at V5 since 2018, and that was mostly about the neo-Nazi stuff with Chechnya.

No more Blood Pool. You have a 0-5 Hunger trait, and you roll to see if you get hungrier rather than tracking a meta-currency.
Did they ever fix that weird exploit where you could get an infinite amount (as in physically infinite) of blood from any vampire because Hunger can never go above 5?
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Post by Prak »

Anon_issue wrote:
No more Blood Pool. You have a 0-5 Hunger trait, and you roll to see if you get hungrier rather than tracking a meta-currency.
Did they ever fix that weird exploit where you could get an infinite amount (as in physically infinite) of blood from any vampire because Hunger can never go above 5?
I would say so, because the way that feeding from another vampire works is that you reduce your hunger by inflicting levels of hunger on the other vampire. So once the other vampire is at Hunger 5, you can no longer inflict levels of hunger on them, therefore you can't reduce your hunger further. This is an interpretation, and you could instead interpret the rules to say "hunger can't go above 5, but you can still inflicting hunger on a vampire at hunger 5," but I think this is a case where the intention and reasonable course of play is obvious.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by shinimasu »

From what I've heard the changes to the mechanics have been well received by fans of the franchise, as they're less clunky and work better than their predecessors. This isn't a high bar to clear, and V5 still has some ancestral jank (namely the disciplines) but it is a lot smoother.

What fans are more divided on are the sweeping changes to the lore, and the lack of support for non-camarilla play currently. A Sabbat guide book theoretically in the works for some time in the future, and the Anarch source book landed with a wet splat since it was basically "Take all the Camarilla clans, now they're not Camarilla anymore. You're welcome."
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Post by OgreBattle »

Does dice stuff resolve faster than previous editions?
shinimasu wrote: What fans are more divided on are the sweeping changes to the lore, and the lack of support for non-camarilla play currently. A Sabbat guide book theoretically in the works for some time in the future, and the Anarch source book landed with a wet splat since it was basically "Take all the Camarilla clans, now they're not Camarilla anymore. You're welcome."
At this point is it purely for fans of the specific Vampire TM IP, or do they still aim for "hey kids ya like vampires??"
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Post by Prak »

OgreBattle wrote:Does dice stuff resolve faster than previous editions?
I don't know. I've only seen a three session Let's Play, and things seemed to go quicker than when I played, but, when I played, the group had anywhere from eight to 15 players on any given night, while the Let's Play was four players, and the ST was a lot more experienced than my ST.
shinimasu wrote: What fans are more divided on are the sweeping changes to the lore, and the lack of support for non-camarilla play currently. A Sabbat guide book theoretically in the works for some time in the future, and the Anarch source book landed with a wet splat since it was basically "Take all the Camarilla clans, now they're not Camarilla anymore. You're welcome."
At this point is it purely for fans of the specific Vampire TM IP, or do they still aim for "hey kids ya like vampires??"
I'm not really sure. So far, what I've seen of the metaplot changes, I like. Brujah have largely left the Camarilla, which makes sense for the "problem with authority" clan, the Tremere Pyramid was broken, and the Second Inquisition is interesting.

In the V5 metaplot, the Camarilla tried to turn the post-9/11 Homeland Security freakout against the Sabbat, and they completely fucked up, because even by just puppet mastering, government officials learned that Vampires existed. The Masquerade is still in place, but now there are mortals who know that Vampires exist and work within a covert multi-national effort to wipe out vampires. It's not like the POTUS and England's Prime Minister know about vampires, but there are people within the Pentagon, MI6, etc who do, and they use terms like "Blankbodies" and lots of "need to know only" stuff.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Blade »

The rule changes sound good.

My main problem with Vampire is that it was never clear what the game was about. It had all this edgelord presentation, went on about how it was about loss of humanity and how terrible it was, then it had pages and pages of superpowers and finally it had you play powerless pawns ruled over by powerful NPCs.

So most of the time I've played it, or heard about people playing it, it was some kind of superhero game where you play C-rank superheroes manipulated by A-rank superhoeroes to beat B-rank superheroes (who are most of the time manipulated by A-rank superheroes themselves).

Is this edition a bit more clear on what the game is supposed to be about?
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Post by Prak »

The section on running the game actually has a lot of prompts, play style ideas, and even a page with, basically, random events to use as plot hooks. There doesn't seem to be a specific intended playstyle beyond "grapple with being a monster," but rather "here is a bunch of stuff you *could* do.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Re: Vampire the Masquerade 5e- Actually a huge step up?

Post by nockermensch »

Prak wrote:Ok check-ins from Larping, where you simply flash an "ok" sign to another player to check in with them
There goes my hopes that v5 had removed all the white supremacy secret codes/s
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Post by Prak »

I get that white supremacists have claimed the ok sign, and I felt weird about that, too, but honestly, we should not let white supremacists claim, well, anything. Especially in the case of 4chan dipshits saying "hey, we should circulate memes saying (X) is a white supremacist symbol so that libs look insane when they call it out!" which leads to white supremacists unironically using that symbol.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Koumei »

The way you don't let them claim something is not by letting it slide all the time and assuming the best in everyone, especially with companies that are known to be somewhere on the edgelord-Nazi spectrum.

The way to do it is judging usage you see, then if you figure they're probably a Nazi, you apply a great deal of violence to them.
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Post by Prak »

That's fair. Reading the V5 core book, it was not written by the same people who wrote the quick guide. I do not think this check in method is at all a nazi dog whistle.

Now, granted, maybe individual players might use it that way...
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Longes »

Messy Crits and Bestial Failures
If a normal die comes up a 1, that's just "not a hit." If you have no hits, you just fail. If a Hunger Die comes up a 1, that's "not a hit," but if you otherwise fail the roll due to no hits coming up, it's a bestial failure.

If a normal die comes up 10, that's just a hit, but every pair of 10s counts double. If a Hunger Die comes up 10 and your roll succeeds, that's a Messy Critical. You absolutely do the thing you were trying to do, and you do it well, but your Beast does it.

So, say you're trying to remove the back seat of a van in motion so you can throw it at a werewolf that is pursuing you on a motorcycle, and you get a messy crit. You absolutely take that seat out, but less by actually disconnecting the mechanisms and being gentle, and more by just ripping the metal apart. Or you Messy Crit on a drive check while trying to lose said pursuing werewolves on motorcycles, and your Beast is like "Oh, let me!" and so what was supposed to be just a pursuit becomes a frantic curb stomping of said werewolves and their motorcycles with your van.

Bestial Failures take the former role of botches. There are no botches, there are Bestial Failures. And it doesn't matter how many Hunger Dice come up 1s on your failed roll. So, where as in Revised World of Darkness games where, say, you botch a check to smash a jeep window and your ST says "you lose your arm! HAWHAW!" in V5, a Bestial Failure basically just means "well, you failed, and something less than ideal happens. Like you have to act out a compulsion, or you total your van and so lose a dot of Resources for a bit until you can recover it (but because it was the result of a Bestial Failure, maybe it doesn't take as long to recover that dot. Note, you just take time to recover a lost dot of an Advantage, you don't have to spend XP to rebuy it).
I'm sad to report that this mechanic is absolute garbage. Bestial Failures and Messy Criticals happen constantly (2-3 per character per session has been an average in the games I was in) and turn it into Vampire: the Three Stoogeing. In one game I was in my character rolled a Bestial Failure while driving a car and trying to spot a tail, which caused him to crash a car into a wall. Then rolled a Messy Critical trying to get the car out of the wall, causing him to demolish an even bigger chunk of the building, and then rolled a Bestial Failure trying to cover up the incident, killing the shocked homeowner.

Feedback from V5 fans was "well you should roll dice less", and that's not helpful. It's especially not helpful because the lead designer Karim has some of the worst ideas.

You see, V5 has a "take half" mechanic. Meaning - if you have twice as many dice as the difficulty of the check, you succeed without rolling. Alongside the latest errata he pushed a recommendation to do blind take halves, where you don't tell the player the difficulty of the check before asking if they want to take half.

Also, FYI, Onyx Path has nothing to do with the V5 corebook. It's an in-house White Wolf product, as are Anarchs, Camarilla and Companion. OPP did Chicago By Night, Chicago Folios, Cults of the Blood Gods and Let The Streets Run Red. Modiphus did The Fall of London. Modiphus was also supposed to do the V5 Companion, but after being 4 years overdue got kicked out as the main publisher and the Companion got published as a free (and very shitty) 30 page pdf.
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Post by nockermensch »

"Messy successes" seems to be just a way to institute a "fail by succeeding" mechanic, like bearworld's success at a cost.

Maybe if the 0-5 hunger dice were to be added to the pool, the process would be fairer, specially if the player has a chance to roll willpower or whatever to resist the beast's help when the situation calls for caution.

Do you want to act in a more brutal way (that's usually more effective, but can have messy results), or be restrained?
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Mord wrote:Chromatic Wolves are massively under-CRed. Its "Dood to stone" spell-like is a TPK waiting to happen if you run into it before anyone in the party has Dance of Sack or Shield of Farts.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Second Inquisition is idiotic. Vampires have mind control powers that mortals have no reliable way to resist. A single Ventrue could completely take over the organization in a week. He wouldn't even need to do it in person, he could appear on Maury pretending to be a distraught potential father and every Second Inquisition member who sees that episode would agree that vampires are awesome and all humans should servethem unquestioningly.

No, the Second Inquisition shouldn't be a globe-spanning coonspiricythat controls all the world governments. That's what vampires are supposed to be. The Second Inquisition should be a whisper network of lone nutjobs who've seen a glimpse of the truth under the Matrix Masquarade and have to cover their tracks very hard to avoid being branded lunatics.


Messy critical and bestial failures are, like all fumble mechanics, heavily dependent on rule 0 and GM friendliness. They can work if the GM is smart and not malicious. If he's either dumb or or dick (or both) then you've got problems. You ideally want them to be more as flavor or as plot twists than game-breaking. If you hit a guy you were trying to knock unconscious so hard he explodes in a shower of gore and you all laugh and move on with your lives because this is the world of darkness where human life is less valuable than toilet paper and no one will notice another gore-encrusted alleyway among thousands, then it's a great mechanic. It might change your plans but it doesn't break the game and more than the guy you were trying to capture alive fighting to the death does. On the other hand, if you hit a guy so hard that he explodes into a shower of gore and the police anti-vampire squad teleports in behind you with dragonsbreath shotguns, that's a problematic mechanic (yes, I have been playing Cyberpunk).

The big difference in the hunger mechanics from previous edition is how powers are rationed. In previous editions, you were better off using spamming low-cost powers in non-combat scenes and feeding to keep yourself topped off, but budgeting yourself in combat because you lose when you run out of blood points, drawing out encounters is the worst possible choice. The V5 hunger mechanics flips that on its head. Hunger caps at 5, but 5 hunger doesn't stop you from using your powers. This encourages minimizing power use in situations where you want to keep a low profile, then spamming them when the shit hits the fan. In a serious fight, there's no real downside to having 5 hunger, unlike having 0 bloodpoints. Meanwhile, in a non-combat scene there's a downside to having 1 hunger, unlike for having 9 bloodpoints.

I'm not really sure which one is better, but I feel that V5 is better for a dark comedy Vampions game.
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Post by Longes »

hyzmarca wrote:The big difference in the hunger mechanics from previous edition is how powers are rationed. In previous editions, you were better off using spamming low-cost powers in non-combat scenes and feeding to keep yourself topped off, but budgeting yourself in combat because you lose when you run out of blood points, drawing out encounters is the worst possible choice. The V5 hunger mechanics flips that on its head. Hunger caps at 5, but 5 hunger doesn't stop you from using your powers. This encourages minimizing power use in situations where you want to keep a low profile, then spamming them when the shit hits the fan. In a serious fight, there's no real downside to having 5 hunger, unlike having 0 bloodpoints. Meanwhile, in a non-combat scene there's a downside to having 1 hunger, unlike for having 9 bloodpoints.

I'm not really sure which one is better, but I feel that V5 is better for a dark comedy Vampions game.
Incorrect. At Hunger 5 you can't make any Rouse checks at all, so you can't use Disciplines:
At Hunger 5, the vampire’s body is too starved of blood to provide increased supernatural power. A vampire can never intentionally Rouse the Blood while at Hunger 5. If some outside factor forces a Rouse Check on the vampire, the player must make an immediate hunger frenzy test at Difficulty 4 (see p. 220). As always, failing a Rouse Check at Hunger 5 still activates the effect that caused the check, if any.
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hyzmarca wrote:Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Second Inquisition is idiotic. Vampires have mind control powers that mortals have no reliable way to resist. A single Ventrue could completely take over the organization in a week. He wouldn't even need to do it in person, he could appear on Maury pretending to be a distraught potential father and every Second Inquisition member who sees that episode would agree that vampires are awesome and all humans should servethem unquestioningly.

No, the Second Inquisition shouldn't be a globe-spanning coonspiricythat controls all the world governments. That's what vampires are supposed to be. The Second Inquisition should be a whisper network of lone nutjobs who've seen a glimpse of the truth under the Matrix Masquarade and have to cover their tracks very hard to avoid being branded lunatics.
I think I sorta mis-explained the SI before. Or I misunderstood when I typed it up before. It's not, necessarily, like the POTUS and the UK Prime Minister know about vampires. It's more of the whisper network of lone nutjobs thing, except those lone nutjobs happen to be in, like, the FBI and CIA and MI6 and shit. So, not exactly lone, but, it's less global government controlling conspiracy and more .... it occurs to me, having just seen the fucking attempted coup in real America yesterday, the SI is more like, well, white supremacist movements. They're a bunch of conspiracy theorist nutjobs, and a lot of them happen to be police, military, FBI, politicians....

Welp. That's going in my game.

Messy critical and bestial failures are, like all fumble mechanics, heavily dependent on rule 0 and GM friendliness. They can work if the GM is smart and not malicious. If he's either dumb or or dick (or both) then you've got problems. You ideally want them to be more as flavor or as plot twists than game-breaking. If you hit a guy you were trying to knock unconscious so hard he explodes in a shower of gore and you all laugh and move on with your lives because this is the world of darkness where human life is less valuable than toilet paper and no one will notice another gore-encrusted alleyway among thousands, then it's a great mechanic. It might change your plans but it doesn't break the game and more than the guy you were trying to capture alive fighting to the death does. On the other hand, if you hit a guy so hard that he explodes into a shower of gore and the police anti-vampire squad teleports in behind you with dragonsbreath shotguns, that's a problematic mechanic (yes, I have been playing Cyberpunk).
This was my take. Granted, I first experienced them watching a streamed game with a very good, intelligent, creative GM who is not antagonistic to the players.
I'm not really sure which one is better, but I feel that V5 is better for a dark comedy Vampions game.
Honestly, kinda the feel I got watching that game I mentioned.
Last edited by Prak on Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Longes »

Prak wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Second Inquisition is idiotic. Vampires have mind control powers that mortals have no reliable way to resist. A single Ventrue could completely take over the organization in a week. He wouldn't even need to do it in person, he could appear on Maury pretending to be a distraught potential father and every Second Inquisition member who sees that episode would agree that vampires are awesome and all humans should servethem unquestioningly.

No, the Second Inquisition shouldn't be a globe-spanning coonspiricythat controls all the world governments. That's what vampires are supposed to be. The Second Inquisition should be a whisper network of lone nutjobs who've seen a glimpse of the truth under the Matrix Masquarade and have to cover their tracks very hard to avoid being branded lunatics.
I think I sorta mis-explained the SI before. Or I misunderstood when I typed it up before. It's not, necessarily, like the POTUS and the UK Prime Minister know about vampires. It's more of the whisper network of lone nutjobs thing, except those lone nutjobs happen to be in, like, the FBI and CIA and MI6 and shit. So, not exactly lone, but, it's less global government controlling conspiracy and more .... it occurs to me, having just seen the fucking attempted coup in real America yesterday, the SI is more like, well, white supremacist movements. They're a bunch of conspiracy theorist nutjobs, and a lot of them happen to be police, military, FBI, politicians....
It's very messy. In the lead-up to V5, the Second Inquisition is powerful enough to do aerial bombing of Vienna (where the Tremere Chantry is), backed up by the Vatican Ninjas and Brazillian Death Squads mopping up the streets for surviving vampires. This is literally what happened in the setting.

In Fall of London the Second Inquisition is run by a detective inspector of Scotland Yard with True Faith 3. But he has a crack team of navy seals trained in gorilla warfare at his beck and call (they have combat dicepools of 10 and thus mop up the floor with any vampire), as well as the british wizards.

In Chicago By Night the Second Inquisition are hunter-monks from the Society of Leopold, and undefined level of competency government agencies running a torture prison out of abandoned airbase.
Last edited by Longes on Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Longes wrote:In Fall of London the Second Inquisition is run by a detective inspector of Scotland Yard with True Faith 3. But he has a crack team of navy seals trained in gorilla warfare at his beck and call (they have combat dicepools of 10 and thus mop up the floor with any vampire), as well as the british wizards.
Normally I'd just assume that you meant "guerilla" and "gorilla" was a typo (or auto-correct fail), but in context I can't be sure.
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Post by Longes »

Thaluikhain wrote:
Longes wrote:In Fall of London the Second Inquisition is run by a detective inspector of Scotland Yard with True Faith 3. But he has a crack team of navy seals trained in gorilla warfare at his beck and call (they have combat dicepools of 10 and thus mop up the floor with any vampire), as well as the british wizards.
Normally I'd just assume that you meant "guerilla" and "gorilla" was a typo (or auto-correct fail), but in context I can't be sure.
I'm memeing. It was a reference to a famous copypasta:
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.
Actually it's a crack team of British Afghanistan war vets who have been recruited into a secret police unit and have combat dicepools of 10 which is the system's maximum.
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Post by osu »

nockermensch wrote:"Messy successes" seems to be just a way to institute a "fail by succeeding" mechanic, like bearworld's success at a cost.

Maybe if the 0-5 hunger dice were to be added to the pool, the process would be fairer, specially if the player has a chance to roll willpower or whatever to resist the beast's help when the situation calls for caution.

Do you want to act in a more brutal way (that's usually more effective, but can have messy results), or be restrained?
That's how I feel about the mechanic too. Rules as written, messy criticals are awful, terrible things that will have lasting consequences and can potentially ruin your character's life.

Even if you are super conservative with disciplines, blood buff, etc., unless you are willing to sacrifice Humanity by killing, your hunger will be 1 at best, so you can still get in trouble anyway.

Overall V5 is pretty awful imo. I tried really hard to like it but I guess it's just not for me.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Longes wrote:I'm memeing. It was a reference to a famous copypasta
Ah, ok, that one passed me by.
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Post by Anon_issue »

nockermensch wrote: Do you want to act in a more brutal way (that's usually more effective, but can have messy results), or be restrained?
On second thought, the new botch and crit mechanics are terrible, especially when you consider how many actions it makes no sense for. How do I “brutally” pick a lock? Or do research in a library? How do I “brutally” sneak past some guards or cast a spell?

I’m getting the impression that the devs had one very specific way you were meant to play the game, and anyone who does anything different is having fun wrong. So in that way I guess it is an authentic WOD game.
Longes wrote: It's very messy. In the lead-up to V5, the Second Inquisition is powerful enough to do aerial bombing of Vienna (where the Tremere Chantry is), backed up by the Vatican Ninjas and Brazillian Death Squads mopping up the streets for surviving vampires. This is literally what happened in the setting.

In Fall of London the Second Inquisition is run by a detective inspector of Scotland Yard with True Faith 3. But he has a crack team of navy seals trained in gorilla warfare at his beck and call (they have combat dicepools of 10 and thus mop up the floor with any vampire), as well as the british wizards.

In Chicago By Night the Second Inquisition are hunter-monks from the Society of Leopold, and undefined level of competency government agencies running a torture prison out of abandoned airbase.
As I mentioned in the other thread, I really do consider it to be fanfiction. There's this jumbled mess of vaguely similar ideas, and the whole thing reminds me of Terminator Genisys. I.e. the fans have taken over the franchise and they're content to endlessly remake and reference the "real" content while the new stuff is really amateurish in that distinctive "teenager's first fan fic" kind of way.
Last edited by Anon_issue on Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Koumei »

Anon_issue wrote:How do I “brutally” pick a lock? Or do research in a library? How do I “brutally” sneak past some guards or cast a spell?
Picking a lock: you kick the door down. The lock has successfully been bypassed, and isn't stopping anyone from going anywhere.

Researching... maybe you grab a librarian and shake the shit out of them and demand they show you the exact books you're looking for?

Sneaking past guards: you tear them in half. The guards won't be noticing anybody, so they are now bypassed. I assume this straight-up bypasses the entire combat minigame as well, so bonus points for that?

Casting a spell: if the spell is potentially destructive, I can see it getting out of hand and causing more destruction. If the spell is "Turn invisible" or "Float in the air" or "Charm Person" then I got nothing. I suppose floating could launch you (or everything around you) into the sky, damaging the surroundings, and charm could instead terrify people into doing what you want, but that's basically writing up a specific clause in every single spell / discipline power to explain what happens.
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Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

Brutal criticals sounds like the old 4chan joke about rolling a natural 20 on your Use Rope check and tying a guy so hard that his soul is bound to eternal damnation forever: Funny as a joke for a week or two and then quickly tiresome.
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