[Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

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Queen of Swords
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Re: [Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

Post by Queen of Swords »

IIRC, here are all the people named in the book :

Morgana
Kevin Truehand
Ifor Tynin
Vashti
The Juja
Hever
Galrin

There's no indication at all that Vashti, the Juja, Hever or Galrin are doing anything other than hanging out in their respective homes/resting places, so they're highly unlikely to be the traitor. Morgana is a known villain, and dead. Kevin is also dead. So that only leaves Ifor Tynin. It's not a particularly interesting puzzle, and the only problem is trying to figure out the correct number from a name which can be read in more than one way.
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Re: [Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

Post by JourneymanN00b »

Going back to Kevin’s death, he mentions black magic as the cause for his death. Out of the named people that I recall, only Ifor Tynin, Vashti, and the Juja are the ones who I can recall who knows some magic. Vashti was the one who alerted us that King Arthur was walking into a trap, so I do not think it is her. I have read nothing that would indicate that the Juja is or is not the traitor. Ifor Tynin, however, appears to be the guilty one, as he definitely is within close proximity of Kevin Truehand, and the court wizard was described as King Arthur’s equal in the book’s Background. And the scepter that King Arthur holds says that “There should be just one ruler”, which means that Ifor Tynin would have much to gain from King Arthur’s death, as he would presumably be the ruler upon his passing.

So my vote is to single out Ifor Tynin as the traitor. But how do we gut this fascist? And how many tries do we have? It seems that we might have missed a decryptor clue in this story that would have helped us.

It may be a shot in the dark, but I think maybe his name itself may be the key. Depending on how bad the writing is, I vote to turn to either turn to section 49 (I *forty nin*) or 40 (I *forty* nin). Personally, I think the latter is the cleaner answer, though I would not be surprised if the former is the section to turn to due to how bad the writing in this book is at times.
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Re: [Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

Post by pragma »

Forty nine seems to be the consensus vote, I'll change my vote to that section.
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Re: [Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

Post by Darth Rabbitt »

Assuming it’s Ifor Tynin (I suppose he could be a red herring) then 49 sounds right to me. Although I could see it being 149, 40 or 90.
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Re: [Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

Post by SGamerz »

Let's check out 49...
You can tell by a slight draught when you pass a side-passage on your left. Will you take the side=passage or carry on?
Wait, we'd actually been to this section not too long ago! This isn't it!

It may be of some comfort to know that this was one of the more common "mistakes" made by plenty of players in the past, so clearly, your only issue is that your mind doesn't work similarly enough to Robin Waterfield.

Fortunately, the second-most popular choice (40) nails it:
As soon as the sorceress has slumped to the ground, you whirl around - and find just who you expected, with his dagger raised to strike you in the back. He curses you for your cleverness, and lunges at you.

THE TRAITOR SKILL 8 STAMINA 10

If you win, turn to 400.
I'm not sure why we had to figure out who he is to think of turning around (after all, we already guessed she had an accomplice). If we don't figure out his identity, we simply get stabbed in the back.

And yeah, it still doesn't reveal the identity. Waterfield clearly doesn't want the players to stumble upon the answer by accident. Still, it's been confirmed over the years that the traitor is indeed Ifor Tynin (and indeed as already mentioned, there aren't a lot of suspects anyway, and his identity isn't hard to figure out). So we faced 2 magic-users as our final foes, and neither of them even tried to cast a spell at us, instead opting for hand-to-hand combat immediately. I guess Tynin just wasn't a very good wizard (or maybe he's a humbug like OZ?). I guess it shouldn't be surprising that a crummy kingdom and its pauper king can't afford to hire a good one.

COMBAT LOG:
Traitor 14, Arthur 19. Traitor is at 8.
Traitor 16, Arthur 23. Traitor is at 6.
Traitor 15, Arthur 18. Traitor is at 4.
Traitor 15, Arthur 19. Traitor is at 2.
Traitor 18, Arthur 14. Arthur is at 8.
Traitor 12, Arthur 16. Traitor is dead.
He somehow got in a lucky stab, but that's not enough to turn the tables. Arthur polishes off the incompetent wizard (and pretty weak fighter as well) with little trouble.
Victory is yours! The Masks of Mayhem will not be released upon the land - at any rate, not in your lifetime...
By this point, I doubt most players would even be surprised at this underwhelming final section...

Anyway, congratulations for solving this one. As usual, questions and comments are welcome, and I will try to answer the inquiries about this book when I make 1 more post to sum up some of the things we missed, which will probably be 2-3 days later.

Thanks for playing, everyone!
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Re: [Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

Post by JourneymanN00b »

Wow. Just wow. It turns out that King Arthur had to fully commit to being a fascist in order to win this adventure. At least we managed to gut the fascist traitor that is Ifor Tynin on the second go, though I wish that the writer could have changed his name so that we could not have been fooled in picking 49.

And yeah, this book is clearly one of the most difficult FF books, but for all the wrong reasons. The game design is just completely horrible, and the odds of winning are very very low, even if you know the correct path. That is not what makes for a good game, in my opinion.

Anyway, thanks for hosting this game.
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Re: [Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

Post by Thaluikhain »

Eh, rather underwhelmed by this one, nothing about it really grabs me, and I lost track of what was happening.

Still, thanks for running it for us.
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Post by Queen of Swords »

Thanks for the game. I actually can't think of any questions - the book just didn't have enough plot or worldbuilding to make me curious.
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Re: [Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

Post by SGamerz »

I'm not sure whether this is the least interesting game I've run so far, but this may be the first one that has gained zero interests expressed in the missed content in the aftermath. :biggrin:

So, the things that we missed on the playthrough...the earliest ones, of course, involve our initial option to not go via the Affen Forest route. There are certainly legit reasons to avoid that route. It's longer, with more hazards on the way. But I'm inclined to believe that when Waterfield was designing the book, he likely meant for this to be the canon "true path", although technically we can still complete the book without the clues and items gained on that route.

Note that the encounter with the Kraken, Galrin and the spectral army will happen on BOTH routes (since we're still close enough to lake initially no matter which direction we take) so we won't risk missing this vital encounter. Anyway, the first encounter via this route that may give us a minor (inessential) plot token involves a group of Spriggans:
Image
This is just a plain combat encounter, and after we kill a pair of these creatures, we can loot some gold (thus having more to spend on Canches' stock) as well as a Garnet Ring.

Next, there's an encounter with the Wood Elves of Affen Forest that was probably meant to be more important, although like I said earlier, technically missing it doesn't prevent us from finishing the game.
Image
We can choose to reveal ourselves or hide, but if we try the latter, they have a very high chance of finding us anyway (and if we attacked any of them in the attempt they will bring us back as a bound captive). The right way is to let them bring us back to their village anyway, so it's certainly better (and easier) to go with them peacefully. We will be brought to the clan chief and the shaman:
Image
They're not introduced by name, so it's not known whether this particular shaman is also the PC of FF28, Eldenurin (anyway, that book was written later, so probably not). As is usual in these book, being honest when questioned by "good" races like elves is usually the good option, and it's no different here, and we should tell them about our quest. It is relatively more difficult to convince them to help us if we arrived as bound captives, but still possible. The clue that we gain here involves gaining entrance to Vashti's lair. They have a magic mirror (shown in the pic above) which shows a image of us in front of the oak trees, holding 2 objects, one of them being long (the sceptre). It's probably mean to combine with the Bard's clue to help us figure out what to do when we see the oaks, but we were able to figure out that from the Juja's words anyway, so it turned out that the clue wasn't quire as vital as it may seem.

Things may turn violent here too, although that's absolutely not good for the PC if that happens. If the PC isn't tied up and tried to sneak a peek at the mirror, the elves will try to stop us (if we're tied up when we tried that, we simply get sucked into the mirror, which is game over). After we kill the chief and the shaman, we can make off with the mirror. However, this prize doesn't really help us at all, and we look into it at any point, we simply get sucked inside.

We may even accidentally destroy the whole elven village by inadvertently summoning Galrin and army. We have an option to ask the elves for information, and one of the options is to ask about Galrin. The moment we mention his name, however, we summon him (and thus wasting the boon - he wouldn't be able to help us against the Golems later, so this is just a delayed game over). Apparently the spectral army is only good for violence and killing and nothing else (can't summon them to help you build a bridge or something), because the moment they appear, they "raze the village to the ground" without stopping to ask whether that's what you summoned them to do. After that, Galrin even scolds you for summoning them when you don't really need them. As mentioned earlier, wasting Galrin here is a delayed game over, but the book attempts to disguise it as a rewarding encounter by letting you loot not just the mirror, but also a set of magical bow and arrows.

If we tried to offer the mirror to Hever in exchange for the Horn, he recognized it for what it was and correctly guessed that we must have gained it by evil (even if it might have been accidental due to Galrin) means, so he turns the mirror towards us and it sucks us in.

During the short segment where we were trying to find out way in the thick fog, we may encounter a Wight (SK 9 ST12), and killing it gains us a handy +1 magic sword. Arthur doesn't need it with his SKILL 12, of course, but I thought it was a a bit of a pity that a PC with the moniker King Arthur doesn't get a nice shiny magic sword for the book.
Image
As mentioned during the playthrough (although it was in spoiler tags), our helmet might be stolen at Hever's castle if we leave it in our room instead of keeping it with us. The correct thing to do is to wait for Hever to organize help for us to track down the thieves. If we rushed off immediately by ourselves, we find the thieves, but find ourselves outnumbered by 6 Pygmy Orcs.
Image
If we'd waited for Hever's help, we'd be accompanied by 6 of his guards, which are more than enough to help us deal with them. Without their help, it's Game Over unless we have a magical bow to help us even the odds. But as mentioned, the only way to get the bow was to waste Galrin's aid, so again, it'll be just a delayed Game Over in this case. And of course, if we never tracked down the helmet thieves, it's also a delated Game Over, because we won't be able to get the Orb without it.

In that village which we avoided after encountering the animated skeletons...there were actually no more skeletons left if we'd explored further (well, no more animated ones, that is). We actually have found this woman, who's apparently half-mad and talking incoherently:
Image
From the bits and pieces of information we may learn and put together, she's apparently the wife of the Farmer whom Morgana abducted (along with Hever's old Bard and probably 9 other random characters from different classes and professions) to collect the sigils and make the golems. If we show her the Garnet Ring, she becomes more lucid due to recognizing it as her sister's possession (stolen by Spriggans), and gives you some vague information about where the Juja lives. I believe she's only other character besides the dying warrior to mention the Juja, so this is probably meant to be the encounter that prompts us to enter Marsh Vile. Again, technically not vital as a clue, but probably meant to be part of the canon true path by the author.

We also get the option to offer her the jewelled choker that we looted from the skeletons instead. It promptly lives up to its name and chokes her to death.

And that's mostly it for the significant sub-plots, I guess. There are a few more pics here, some of which involving characters that we met, but didn't come across the pics because of the way we encountered or resolved them.

Here's the Hellfire Spirit that was transformed from Kevin Truehand's corpse. We see this pic if we didn't move towards Hever:
Image
Here's Canches, the trader. We can encounter him on 3 different routes, although none of what he sells is absolutely vita:
Image
And for those of you interested in what a Blackheart looks like, here are 2 of them:\
Image
We may run into their camp during the early part of the book (shortly after the Kraken encounter I believe). We may also find a rope after we kill them, although again, this wasn't a really important item.
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Re: [Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

Post by Thaluikhain »

SGamerz wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 10:34 am
I'm not sure whether this is the least interesting game I've run so far, but this may be the first one that has gained zero interests expressed in the missed content in the aftermath. :biggrin:
Huh. Ouch.
SGamerz wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 10:34 am
If we rushed off immediately by ourselves, we find the thieves, but find ourselves outnumbered by 6 Pygmy Orcs.
Image
Pygmy orcs? Ah-huh.
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Re: [Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

Post by Queen of Swords »

SGamerz wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 10:34 am
Apparently the spectral army is only good for violence and killing and nothing else (can't summon them to help you build a bridge or something), because the moment they appear, they "raze the village to the ground" without stopping to ask whether that's what you summoned them to do.
And either you're standing back and allowing them to massacre all the elves, or you're pleading with them to stop killing innocent people while they're all, sorry, must unleash complete destruction on anyone except you whenever we're summoned, or else... I dunno, something bad happens to them? They become deader?
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Re: [Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

Post by pragma »

I guess I wonder what was down the drafty path to our left on our approach to Morganna, but my overall impression of this one was a _lot_ of uninformed left/right choices and instant death options.

I did like the Snatta Cat hunt, not because it was a good minigame, but because I think it's a good homework problem for a probability class. I'm pretty sure you could replace the whole thing with a single d20 roll. However, the illusion of choice is good at getting you to imagine that you're stalking a big leopard-thing.
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Re: [Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Let's start with this:
Image

So, even if you have perfect stats and follow the One True Path, you still fail this book eight times out of nine. That is a heroic level of bullshit. We're talking the Augean Stables here.

Now, I had been told (by other sources) that this book's plot was intriguing enough and its prose pleasing enough that one could have fun starting over and over and just exploring to winkle out all the details. It's true that even some of the most engaging gamebooks (e.g. Demons of the Deep) didn't really offer that, tending towards being non-sequitur parades between a very few actual plot points. Still, I think being a total failure as a game means that this is a total failure as a gamebook. I can get good plot and prose from a book that doesn't invite me to participate and then shit on me.
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Re: [Let's Play] Fighting Fantasy 23 - Masks of Mayhem!

Post by SGamerz »

pragma wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 5:52 pm
I guess I wonder what was down the drafty path to our left on our approach to Morganna, but my overall impression of this one was a _lot_ of uninformed left/right choices and instant death options.

I did like the Snatta Cat hunt, not because it was a good minigame, but because I think it's a good homework problem for a probability class. I'm pretty sure you could replace the whole thing with a single d20 roll. However, the illusion of choice is good at getting you to imagine that you're stalking a big leopard-thing.
Pretty much, yeah, it wasn't even much of a maze in that end section. Taking the other path leads to sudden death 2 sections later (we get trapped by portcullises and killed by "7 deadly serpents", which presumably bear no relations to the 7 (far more interesting ones) that serve the Archmage in Steve Jackson's Sorcery). I guess the best you can say about that sequence is that it doesn't waste too many sections on a pointless and featureless random-direction maze like certain other books do, so it's slightly less frustrating in that aspect.

And yeah, the mini-game was mildly diverting and one of the more relatively interesting points of the book, but apparently the story itself isn't interesting enough to make you remember that we were hunting a Sabre-tooth tiger instead of a Snattacat :biggrin: (coincidentally, the Snattacats from Sorcery was also a somewhat more interesting encounter than the tiger in this book).

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 9:43 pm
Now, I had been told (by other sources) that this book's plot was intriguing enough and its prose pleasing enough that one could have fun starting over and over and just exploring to winkle out all the details. It's true that even some of the most engaging gamebooks (e.g. Demons of the Deep) didn't really offer that, tending towards being non-sequitur parades between a very few actual plot points. Still, I think being a total failure as a game means that this is a total failure as a gamebook. I can get good plot and prose from a book that doesn't invite me to participate and then shit on me.
How interesting the plot is might be subjective to the reader's taste, but as it is, the prose is minimalist and barebones, so I wouldn't even recommend that. Even Luke Sharp's (more) minimalistic writing occasionally adds a certain amusing touch or flavour that this one lacks.

Plotwise, there have been a few FF books that were interesting enough to keep me engaged as I replay repeatedly to find the right path (Siege of Sardath being one that stands out in that regard) despite the massive difficulty, but this one isn't one of them.
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