The Gaming Den

Copying my comment on YouTube

I get how 'worse game ever' seems hyperbolic, because I've certainly played games that were more boring/offensive/intellectually dishonest/money grubbing/buggy/badly written than Chrono Cross. Fire Emblem Fates, a horrible game that I think Chrono Cross is still worse than, loses to it in all of the aforementioned categories. But you see, the thing about Chrono Cross is that it sucks in a way that most games don't suck. You can't just pick it up and go 'oh, this translation is awful' or 'oh, I'm spending 40 seconds in a loading screen' or 'oh, I need to grind for two hours just to get past the first boss'. That's how most games suck and Chrono Cross, for all of its numerous faults, is largely smart enough to avoid those common faults.

Chrono Cross's suckiness comes from how it actively disrespects any desire of the player to engage with the game beyond a 'I'm telling and you're listening' level. I've played a ton of shitty jRPGs, but none so gleefully went out of its way to grate on my nerves to make a point or show off like Chrono Cross did. And this game does this constantly and (worse) INTENTIONALLY -- whether we're talking about the accent filter, its relentless misanthropy, making throwaway villains from the last game harbingers of great evil, asking us to sympathize with outright evil party members. Chrono Cross has the mentality of a bad salesman or a message board spammer, where respecting peoples' intellect or time or desired outcomes was viewed as an obstacle to getting its message out.

To that end, I can see why this game has fans even though it doesn't deserve them. A lot of people don't want to engage with art besides just absorbing what's being showed and vibing with the creator. They don't care about intradiegetic change or themes or additional ideas to be extrapolated or empathy or immersion. And if you can just turn off your brain and just enjoy the bizarre oneupmanship I can see why someone would Chrono Cross, because it's the apotheosis of the 'shut up and enjoy the awesome' kind of storytelling that started in the 5th generation of video games. But to people who want to find artistic merit beyond just sitting down with a bowl of popcorn and a controller and watching a Game of Thrones-style 'oh my God, no he DIDN'T!' spectacle, this game is significantly more insulting than even classic shitty games like, say, Bebe's Kids. Because while Bebe's Kid had no artistic merit or desire to do anything but earn a paycheck, Chrono Cross had no artistic merit and wanted to brag in your face about how deep and edgy it is.

I do concede that this game has fans, rabid ones, but it has fans for the same reasons that Invader Zim and Xenogears -- both markedly superior works to Chrono Cross -- has fans. Or Identity Crisis or The Killing Joke for that matter. I think the most telling thing about Chrono Cross is that 90% of the people who like it were between ages 10 and 18 when the game first came out.

I haven't played Chrono Cross but I feel your pain.
A bad work that could have been good (because it had talented people working on it, good foundations to build upon, good ideas/concepts, etc.) is worse than a plain bad work.

And it's even worse when there's a cult around it.

I still have a hard time connecting the Metal Gear Solid 3 I've played with the game everyone thinks so highly of.

I've never played Chrono Cross (only Trigger), but I can totally sympathize with the "FE:Fates is shit" sentiment since I finished almost every single route a couple months ago. It was like playing a trainwreck and I couldn't stop until the gimmick maps threatened to drown me in shit.

I've played Chrono Cross and beat the game. I agree with pretty much most of what you are saying Lago. The only things I really liked about the game were the music and some of the character designs. I don't think it's the worst game ever but I am sure as shit never playing it again.

Like I said, Chrono Cross one of the worst games ever because it actively disrespects your desire to engage with it. Among a lot of other fucking things, it changes up basic assumptions of RPGs not out of a desire to entertain or try something new, but simply because it cares more about its image than entertaining you.

Like, for all of Fire Emblem: Fates faults that game at least wanted you to play it. I think that the game's biggest problem is that it tried too hard to get you to want to play it, but that still makes it a better game than Chrono Cross who cared more about getting its message out and cultural posturing than being enjoyable.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Like, for all of Fire Emblem: Fates faults that game at least wanted you to play it. I think that the game's biggest problem is that it tried too hard to get you to want to play it, but that still makes it a better game than Chrono Cross who cared more about getting its message out and cultural posturing than being enjoyable.

Really? I had a number of issues with Fates, but that was not one of them. Then again, I have the feeling some of my problems are encompassed by yours. Does the fucking horrible characterization and EPIC PLOTZ have anything to do with it?

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Like, for all of Fire Emblem: Fates faults that game at least wanted you to play it. I think that the game's biggest problem is that it tried too hard to get you to want to play it, but that still makes it a better game than Chrono Cross who cared more about getting its message out and cultural posturing than being enjoyable.

Really? I had a number of issues with Fates, but that was not one of them. Then again, I have the feeling some of my problems are encompassed by yours. Does the fucking horrible characterization and EPIC PLOTZ have anything to do with it?

A lot of the problems of Fates stems from how it tried too hard to get you to like it. The Babyrealms? The Everyone (but Takumi, except not really) loves Corrin? The Golden Path that completely negates the need to make hard choices? The waifuery?

Is it weird that I disliked all of that stuff but somehow didn't make the obvious association?
Then again as much as I hate babyrealms I never get tired of Fire Eugenics, even when it's blatantly shoehorned in for no reason.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I get how 'worse game ever' seems hyperbolic, because I've certainly played games that were more boring/offensive/intellectually dishonest/money grubbing/buggy/badly written than Chrono Cross. Fire Emblem Fates, a horrible game that I think Chrono Cross is still worse than, loses to it in all of the aforementioned categories.

Let’s address these points, shall we? If Fates is boring it somehow tricked me into playing it for 200 hours. I’m not terribly sure how Fates is “intellectually dishonest”; the only offensive elements I can think of are the incestuous undertones with the royal families and the being able to romance the time displaced child characters. Those are both kind of icky, so congratulations! You’ve come close to making a point. Multiple paths stretched across various games does require multiple purchases, which could in fact be seen as more money grubbing. So another one debatably right, although I can’t be terribly bothered by that when I actually enjoyed all routes. Here’s a secret: video game corporations are actually out to make as much money as possible. As mentioned I’ve played at least 200 hours of Fates and not come across a single bug, so…yeah, I have no clue why the fuck you picked this out. I’ll go over what I assume are your writing problems with Fates below, and I’ll cede that some of those are in fact writing problems (although not nearly as badly written as Chrono Cross since that game’s plot is incomprehensible). So 3/5, congratulations, you get a passing grade. D-. You might want to brush up on your persuasive writing skills.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:A lot of the problems of Fates stems from how it tried too hard to get you to like it. The Babyrealms? The Everyone (but Takumi, except not really) loves Corrin? The Golden Path that completely negates the need to make hard choices? The waifuery?

Other than the first thing you list (since the time dilated babies are poorly integrated into the plot after Awakening handled that really well), I don't see how any of these are a problem.
Having the vast majority of characters like a character that will end up turning against half of them adds personal stakes for both them and Corrin (although I will concede that a lot of the Hoshidan cast trusts Corrin too quickly. The intro is honestly kind of rushed). Do you like “the need to make hard choices” as you suggest in your jab at Revelation, or do you not like it (since if one side didn’t like you it wouldn’t be a very hard choice?) I think that there is merit in having there be reason for Corrin to have trouble deciding who to go against.
It’s interesting that you bring up Takumi, because his characterization is actually one of the better ones (and I think most of the characterizations are “good”, although I suspect that you disagree on that point), since it’s explicitly stated that he’s still hurt by losing Corrin when he was little and was actively hostile at the start of the game as to avoid growing attached to his sibling again. He kind of loses it when his hostility is validated to the point that it starts affecting the rest of the family, the only people left that he did trust. Like his coping mechanisms are obviously flawed, but in a way that fits a tragic character. It’s consistent across all paths that he’s a deeply insecure person.
The Golden Path: I don’t see why “an optimal course of action” in a game means that suboptimal ones are somehow invalidated. There are plenty of decision or faction based games where it’s clear that one option is the best. One could argue it makes the other paths more tragic since that problem was avoidable and/or that it provides a happy ending after being pulled around two more tragic routes. Hell, Revelation all but states “hey, play the first two first.” Do you just not like that this was stretched across three games? That’s actually a reasonable criticism. Maybe you should have opened with that.
The "waifuery" thing is something else that started in Awakening (which, again, was a really huge success) and was probably kept for the simple reason that people like shipping. I don’t see it as a problem, besides some of the romances being poorly written and some of the characters being strange to be able to romance (step-siblings, adoptive siblings, literal cousin, time dilated children of other people you can romance.)
I have literally no clue what any of these have to do with “trying too hard to get you to like it,” or what the fuck that statement even means, beyond “you don’t like it and want it to sound like that makes you smart.” Ironically, I do think that you’re trying too hard to get people to like your arguments. I actually think that you are smart, Lago. I also think that you (like most of us here, including myself) are prone to making sweeping, authoritative statements and just assuming everyone sees it as fact because you use lots of big words. Your posts here actually made me do a bit of thinking about exactly how often I make that assumption, so in a sense I should be thanking you.

Of course, Fire Emblem Fates is by no means beyond critique (nothing is, and I even mentioned some points against it), but it's a really weird game to compare to Chrono Cross (a game I bear no love) in general, and it doesn't fit your example. While I agree that Chrono Cross is terrible, I don’t consider it the worst game ever. Metroid: Other M is probably worse than Chrono Cross (it does have the advantage of having a coherent plot), but I don’t think any game is as bad as Custer’s Revenge.

The very problem with Revelation is that it asks you to go buy the others first so you can understand its numerous plotlines that all get resolved in a stereotypical "golden ending" that does, in fact, invalidate the other routes. All Corrin had to do to avoid all the pain they go through in Birthright and Fates was just take the third option and then they could reunite both parts of their family, defeat the TRUE EVIL BAD GUY who was BARELY MENTIONED in the other routes, get the ULTIMATE POWER SWORD only they can wield, and go through a bunch of SHITTY GIMMICK MAPS on the road to victory. Well shit, that just makes everyone in the other routes look even stupider than usual - which is quite a feat, believe me!
This wouldn't be nearly as bad if it was presented as a third option of equal value to the other two, rather than the objectively best ending THAT YOU PAY EXTRA MONEY FOR! Fortunately I didn't, but Revelation's plot and gameplay are seriously some of the weakest in the entire series. I've played every FE from 4-10, then Fates and Echoes, and Revelation was the only one I actually dropped. Maybe I was just burnt out after playing Birthright and Conquest, maybe I was pissed at the story, maybe I was pissed at how hard of a mary sue Corrin is. Corrin takes some of the worst aspects of avatar units and slams them together with your main lord AND your manakete units, PLUS they get dicksucked by EVERYONE AROUND THEM CONSTANTLY! Even Takumi's resentment is based in how much they SECRETLY LOVE CORRIN BUT CORRIN HURT HIS FEELINGS :'(.
Revelation was a mistake. It should have been the most bitter path of all where you struggle to reunite a divided world, not the best path with a bunch of shit they barely alluded to in the other paths.

Lago's comparison is completely apt.

No comment on FE:Fates storywise besides that it is bad, but I've seriously enjoyed Conquest. It's got pretty fun & diverse maps & the reclass system adds a lot of replayability as does the capture & child mechanics. Add in how smooth the pair-up & duel strike system in conquest can become once you get used to it and it holds up really well as a game. Yeah, everything related to the story is a train-wreck, but purely from a gameplay standpoint I think it is superb.

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:I've never played Chrono Cross

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:Lago's comparison [to Chrono Cross] is completely apt.

Well, you used ALL CAPS, so you must be right.

A lot of people don't want to engage with art besides just absorbing what's being showed and vibing with the creator. They don't care about intradiegetic change or themes or additional ideas to be extrapolated or empathy or immersion

lmao you're a retard. Chrono Cross pretty much blows but you really need to get over yourself. Your lame and pedantic rant from a youtube comment section about a shitty 20 year old game isn't nearly good enough to warrant cross-posting.

Hey, Lago. Post the video to which you’ve commented?

I tried CC two decades ago.
Combat was fine right up until it switched to the "push this button at this time to hit! Otherwise you miss" I was hurf durf MISS.... MISS... MISS.
Party dead.
"Seriously? That's it?"

I turned it off and drove to a friend's house, the guy that lent it to me, and we played D&D instead.

That's not Chrono Cross's combat at all. There is no timing to hit, it's just percent chance to hit.

Huh. Odd. I must have dabbled with so many JRPGs I confused CC's combat for some kind of "hit X at the right time, if dead-on you get a Crit, otherwise you miss" game that looked almost the same.

That sounds like it could be Legend of Dragoon (PSX), where every character had a bunch of different "default attack" combos (I think your equipped weapon determines which one you use? I can't remember, I know you don't choose it from a menu in battle, it's set and just happens when you select "Attack"), and you had to press X at the right times, and sometimes there would be a red crackle and you instead had to press (square? circle?) otherwise the enemy breaks your combo and hits you with a counter attack.

I suppose it could also be the Shadow Heart games (PS2) which had THE JUDGMENT RING, where a little symbol spins around a ring that has "miss, hit, crit" zones and you had to stop it in the right places.

One of the things I hate most about the rise of apps and targeted advertising is that an article titled "Why Chrono Cross deserves an HD remake" keeps popping up in my phone feed and it won't let me post "This game is comparable to cholera" in the comments section without getting Medium first.

JonSetanta wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:11 pm

Huh. Odd. I must have dabbled with so many JRPGs I confused CC's combat for some kind of "hit X at the right time, if dead-on you get a Crit, otherwise you miss" game that looked almost the same.

Might have been Legend of Legaia, although that game had more of a fighting game combo system thing going on.

Koumei wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:18 am

That sounds like it could be Legend of Dragoon (PSX), where every character had a bunch of different "default attack" combos (I think your equipped weapon determines which one you use? I can't remember, I know you don't choose it from a menu in battle, it's set and just happens when you select "Attack"), and you had to press X at the right times, and sometimes there would be a red crackle and you instead had to press (square? circle?) otherwise the enemy breaks your combo and hits you with a counter attack.

It's circle - I remember the "Additions" system. You set with 'Finisher' (like "Gust of Wind Dance" or "Volcano") and that determines the timing sequence.

Whipstitch wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:59 am

One of the things I hate most about the rise of apps and targeted advertising is that an article titled "Why Chrono Cross deserves an HD remake" keeps popping up in my phone feed and it won't let me post "This game is comparable to cholera" in the comments section without getting Medium first.

That's because there was some rumors going around and also there was a cross over with the game "Another Eden". So the conversions has started again.

Leress wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:11 pm

I've played Chrono Cross and beat the game. I agree with pretty much most of what you are saying Lago. The only things I really liked about the game were the music and some of the character designs. I don't think it's the worst game ever but I am sure as shit never playing it again.

I recall that you used to have an avatar of Lynx for the longest time.

I've also been watching a Longplay of the game here and there on YouTube recently, and...

I really like the music, and some character designs, and some of the areas, but man did the massive party system really screw over any chance at characterization for anybody besides Harle and Kid.

Libertad wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:26 am

I recall that you used to have an avatar of Lynx for the longest time.

I really like the music, and some character designs, and some of the areas, but man did the massive party system really screw over any chance at characterization for anybody besides Harle and Kid.

Yes I did, I like his character design. I love the music of the game, but the story started off good, then went down hill.

Libertad wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:26 am

I really like the music, and some character designs, and some of the areas, but man did the massive party system really screw over any chance at characterization for anybody besides Harle and Kid.

Yep. Every once in a while you come across Chrono Cross apologists who insist it was better than Chrono Trigger and inevitably they end up being completionists that enjoy mystery for mystery's sake and find mutually exclusive party members and shit fascinating. Which, is an opinion, I guess, but mystery often undercuts drama even in the best of times and Chrono Cross's development was not the best of times. There's like 40 characters and apparently that was the cut down number. Anyway, I never finished it because I was 17 at the time and even my socially inept ass had girls to disappoint in between marathon sessions of baldur's gate.

Whipstitch wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:33 am

Yep. Every once in a while you come across Chrono Cross apologists who insist it was better than Chrono Trigger and inevitably they end up being completionists that enjoy mystery for mystery's sake and find mutually exclusive party members and shit fascinating.

If you like that sort of thing, let me tell you about a little gem called Suikoden. Not only do you have 5 main games plus a few others like Tactics, each one has 108 characters for you to recruit, plenty of them missable/non-essential (and to be fair, most have non-combat roles so you don't add them to your party), and if Sui2 (my main experience) is anything to go by, multiple endings including a bad ending of "Nah fuck it, this is bullshit, I'm not saving the world. I'm a fucking teenager, you have seasoned commanders who can do this." and "So I heard you like speedrunning". It is the game series for 100-percenters. (Also I generally enjoyed Sui2 and probably would have enjoyed the others had I had much of a chance to play them back in the day, so unlike CC I can say normal people have a decent chance of liking them).