Election 2020

[Harshax]

Mitch is literally 100% personally responsible for the vote being delayed until Trump was out of office. That's his excuse because he wanted it to be. Take it away and he would absolutely find, or create, something else.

Agreed.

[Kaelik]

If you have some Republicans who said their hands were tied by the language of the Constitution, a bipartisan group of scholars who interpret the Constitution to mean that an officer can be impeached while holding office and tried, despite no longer hold office at time of trial, and a majority of Congressional representation that supports this interpretation, then it stands to reason that the door too amend the Constitution to clarify the impeachment process has been flung wide open.

...

It is now in the Public Record that some Republicans struggled with the language of the Constitution. It is now in the Public Record that literally one-half the time an impeachment trial has been called, the Congress struggled with the language of the Constitution.

...

I know of at least 3 Republican senators who quoted Constitutional language as their only reason for acquittal. So, it's [amending the constitution] not exactly inconceivable.

...

But if you can hide behind language, because of reasons, taking away that sidestep forces these spineless weasels to contort themselves even further to justify acquittal.

That's a powerful to to hold people accountable. If a politician can't hide behind procedure, then they have to take a real position that can be the subject of public discourse at election time.

Mitch specifically cited Constitutionality as his reason for acquittal. He very nearly said that it was the only reason. And if that's a lie, then removing questionable language from the Constitution means his lie must get more complex. And, the more complex a lie, the easier it is to unravel.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

1) Amending the constitution is literally impossible and the idea that your plan is to get both the republicans who didn't want to impeach trump and made up the excuse they wanted and also a bunch of other republicans in the state houses to amend the constitution to deprive them of an excuse is absolutely fucking crazy.

There is no wide open door to amending the constitution because no one wants to amend the constitution to make it clear. It's already clear! They just want to acquit.

2) Amending the constitution, as you admit in places, would have no effect. They would make up a different excuse which would be equally as bad faith, and you would equally try to address on the non existent merits instead of just realizing that impeachment was a political messaging event. Their different excuse probably wouldn't actually change any actual votes for those republican senators in 2, 4, or 6 years.

Talking about your big idea to do an impossible thing that would have no effect is really stupid.

[Harshax]

Political calculus requires you to engage your opponent on each of their positions and convince voters of their indefensibility until you prove your superior ground.

My positions are neither stupid, nor impossible. They are simply positions from which to play the game.

[MGuy]

Political calculus involves engaging with the reality of the political landscape. More Republicans have responded to who they perceive Trump to be as a person than by any failures in consistency within the party's operations. In the reality we actually live in Trump has probably done more damage to the Republicans through sheer force of his personal stupidity and repeated ineptitude than any Dem, any never Trumper Lincoln project operator, or the media. Your average Republican isn't sitting at home remarking about whether or not the Republican leadership are acting in good faith or not. If you don't even know that much about the state of the political board right now then I don't know what to tell you.

If anything is hurting the Republicans right now it's that their media has ginned up their constituency to the point where a good number of them believe in things that are actively destructive to this nation and they absolutely refused to bribe them when it could've won them the election. Republicans (and I have made the argument that Democrats are the same in this respect) don't need to win. They just need to keep things mostly the same while easing things rightward. They don't need to win all the hearts and all the minds they just need to concentrate the number of people they need to put an R in office to an amount that is as low as possible so that they can prevent Democrats from doing anything more than keeping the system from completely breaking apart. Your average Republican voter, your average swing voter, your average nonvoter is barely paying attention to the theatrics people are performing in congress and many of those that are paying attention are interpreting what's going on in a way that doesn't challenge the side they've invested in.

In the current political climate you wouldn't be able to squeeze by legislation that was something as agreeable as making voting more fair much less an amendment to the constitution. I have no idea how you can see how divided this country is and believe for a second that the current crop of Dems could move the current crop of Republicans to actually do anything major that isn't absolutely required just to keep the wheels turning in this dying republic.

[Harshax]

I wouldn't suggest actually attempting to pass legislation, RIGHT NOW, regarding the language of the constitution.

I'm saying that you get your opponents on the record regarding their willingness to entertain legislature that strengthens the language of the Constitution.

So if a Republican voted to acquit the president, you claim they are not the party of law and order. That they don't care about cops. That they didn't hold Trump accountable for the deaths of 3 police officers and for putting his VP in jeopardy. And, that they'll act just like Trump when things don't go their way and sell you out.

^ This is a legitimate ad and is based on the Public record.

If they're also on record for not supporting legislation to strengthen the language of the Constitution, then you spin that to mean this Republican only cares about Cops and Law & Order when it doesn't apply to white privilege.

I believe republicans only care that they don't face a bull-moose party in the near future. The percentage of Trump voters who are directly part of the republican apparatus is a tiniest fraction of that group. Most all the other people, regardless of party, just want their water to keep running and the boogeyman out of their back yard.

[Kaelik]

Political calculus requires you to engage your opponent on each of their positions and convince voters of their indefensibility until you prove your superior ground.

My positions are neither stupid, nor impossible. They are simply positions from which to play the game.

Your position to PASS AN AMENDMENT is impossible. Trying to pass an amendment that you don't expect to change the outcome is also stupid.

But I guess, yes, if you believe that the way to do politics is to gormlessly treat all your opponents statements as good faith true statements and to engage them all on that level, slowly working your way through the 578 amendments to the constitution you will need to make to impeach Donald Trump in 6783 so he can't run for 999th president of the Unites States then I guess that would explain why everything you say is so fucking stupid.

Back in reality, one way you might do real politics is to call witnesses and really drive into voters heads how horrific this was with significant testimony over a month.

That would be a lot more effective than trying to amend the constitution so you can then what? Try again? Why? Who cares? Democrats already told the american people that January 6th was just less important than going home to fuck their spouses! The american people now know, because the democrats told them, that the impeachment wasn't important.

[Harshax]

I don’t think it’s all or nothing, Kaelik. Marjorie Taylor Greene ran Trump’s playbook step by step and now she has been legislatively removed from all her appointments in congress. And if you think people who are actually interested in policy haven’t noticed that her untenable position has made her ineffectual at what she was elected to do, then you’re blind to the your own rage at this miscarriage of the constitutional process.

Trump will lose voter confident by margins because of the impeachment. He will continue to lose margins as civil and criminal investigations culminate into some levels of accountability.

In turn, every acquitting Republican will find their positions challenged. If the opposing party, free to get back to work after effectively proving without argument that Trump is guilty of inciting an insurrection, make good on the things people actually need and care about, then the underlying conditions that created MAGA will evaporate in degrees and the insurrectionist core will return to the shadows.

[MGuy]

I wouldn't suggest actually attempting to pass legislation, RIGHT NOW, regarding the language of the constitution.

I do not know why you think this would work. Remember when McConnel and the Republicans did that thing where they denied Obama's SC pick for reasons they made up and then as soon as they were in a similar situation they backtracked on it? Remember how they acquitted Trump last time and right afterward said he probably did crimes and he would probably not do more crimes in the future? Republican voters do not respond to this shit.

I believe republicans only care that they don't face a bull-moose party in the near future. The percentage of Trump voters who are directly part of the republican apparatus is a tiniest fraction of that group. Most all the other people, regardless of party, just want their water to keep running and the boogeyman out of their back yard.

And you seem to know this. What I don't get is that if you can acknowledge that this is the reality of the situation then why in the hell would you think playing up consistency games would matter at all? Any individual Republican is basically 3 questions or less away from being confronted with the hypocrisy of their own stated beliefs and the reality of what they do/believe. I'm not talking about the politicians here. I'm talking about the voters. They are not paying attention to political theatre. They are paying attention to what they are told about what's going on from their media source of choice.

If you wanted to effect the opinion of the average Republican voter you'd have to go after right wing media. No one's going to do that so the people you are targeting are people who are even less interested in political games because they haven't even chosen a team, and if you listen to apolitical people they think both teams are both bad.

[Harshax]

I watch a lot of political ads. The consistency game is what you play to establish a persona worthy of election. I’m suggesting that the ante for the consistency game gets risen. Nothing. Nothing can be done about the state of the Republican Party now. You have to make the current strategy to win harder in the next election cycle.

[MGuy]

I watch a lot of political ads. The consistency game is what you play to establish a persona worthy of election. I’m suggesting that the ante for the consistency game gets risen. Nothing. Nothing can be done about the state of the Republican Party now. You have to make the current strategy to win harder in the next election cycle.

'You' watch political ads. You probably even judge how good they are. The considerations you're making though aren't the considerations that seem to be effecting Republican votes on any significant scale. The Lincoln Project pretty much did the 'go hard' ads for Republicans by Republicans and there is no evidence that it did anything since, as we can see in the numbers, Trump got more votes this time than he did when all the media was basically calling him a shit candidate back in 2016.

[Kaelik]

The consistency game is what you play to establish a persona worthy of election.

Lul.

"The consistency game" is not what anyone actually cares about and not what voters vote on.

No one has believed Republicans are good logic robots with consistent views for decades. Not a single person! And they keep getting votes people what people want when they vote republicans are for republicans to represent their interests.

All voters except apparently partisan democratic voters know that politicians are lying to them and vote based on the message they see behind what is said.


And also of course, the impeachment did nothing to stop legislation and frankly probably allowed the senate to work better. As long as republicans can yell about how much they love Trump on TV it probably gives them some range to compromise on regular senate business.

But the democrats definitely wont do anything to actually win future elections because while republicans are outlawing voting democrats believe that segregationist political tactics are more important than passing laws.

[Harshax]

“Don’t hate the player. Hate the game.”

The game is definitely rigged and will remain so until the business of government includes the electoral process as well. That means outlawing gerrymandering, using a different method for how congressional representation is calculated, requiring all fdc regulated public communication services to broadcast equal debate/air time for candidates, federally funding all parties and candidates that reach a threshold of popularity.

[Kaelik]

“Don’t hate the player. Hate the game.”

The game is definitely rigged and will remain so until the business of government includes the electoral process as well. That means outlawing gerrymandering, using a different method for how congressional representation is calculated, requiring all fdc regulated public communication services to broadcast equal debate/air time for candidates, federally funding all parties and candidates that reach a threshold of popularity.

Yes..... things which democrats could do, but don't want to do.

But more specifically, on the original conversation besides my aside. Calling republicans hypocrites and trying to amend the constitution to change impeachment rules are not actually things that a single human being cares about and will change their vote based on.

[hyzmarca]

We'll We've established that it's 100% legal for an outgoing President to attempt a violent coup.

I hope that Biden remembers this and takes it to heart in 2028. He's more competent than Trump and probably could get a third term out of it.

[Harshax]

While my original point was murky, it should be clear that now I was suggesting a dialogue to attack the technicality of acquittal that has, according to the Washington Post this morning, been specifically cited by 5 Republicans. The result would either make it more difficult for a Republican to contort their position, or lend itself to the fracturing of the Republican Party. Both, from my perspective are good outcomes for the left.

[Harshax]

I’m embarrassed to admit I forgot a fundamental travesty in the electoral process which is the restoration of voting privileges for the convicted once they have served their sentence.

[Harshax]

We'll We've established that it's 100% legal for an outgoing President to attempt a violent coup.

I hope that Biden remembers this and takes it to heart in 2028. He's more competent than Trump and probably could get a third term out of it.

This is certainly the case Constitutionally. And, to Kaelik’s point, won’t be the case if Republicans ever achieve a supermajority.

It has yet to be seen if that assertion will hold up if Trump faces criminal or civil convictions for crimes related to impeachment.

[Kaelik]

While my original point was murky, it should be clear that now I was suggesting a dialogue to attack the technicality of acquittal that has, according to the Washington Post this morning, been specifically cited by 5 Republicans. The result would either make it more difficult for a Republican to contort their position, or lend itself to the fracturing of the Republican Party. Both, from my perspective are good outcomes for the left.

I would encourage doing effective politics instead of extremely pathetic hypocrisy takedowns about process things that most voters don't understand and the ones who do don't care about.

[Harshax]

I would encourage evaluating every possible method to undermine the right, regardless your unqualified perception of effectiveness.

[Kaelik]

I would encourage evaluating every possible method to undermine the right, regardless your unqualified perception of effectiveness.

How insanely fucking stupid do you have to be to talk about the "qualifications" of people's opinions about the efficacy of political tactics.

No one in the world is more qualified then the democratic consultants who have been absolutely shit at their job for decades now. Your delusional pursuit of technocracy has led you to Robby Mook. It's time to maybe look at literally any other method of making decisions.

[Harshax]

If the resulting dialogue of what I proposed generally to address malfeasance in the democratic process is imperceptible to you, then your perception is unqualified. Because it is categorically factual that voters make choices based on perception of intent. And it is categorically factual that voters do not choose candidates that cross the grain of what they believe.

If your position is that the voting registrar of the right is filled with indomitable monsters, then your perception is unqualified to weigh the degrees of success the impeachment process garnered.

If your only measure of success of impeachment proceedings is to see Trump swinging from the same gallows that his army constructed on the west lawn of Congress, then your political acumen is questionable

If you don’t have an idea on how to run the long game politically, you will always be reactionary to people who do. Republicans like Mitch McConnell have left generational marks on branches of government because of those rules.

Only an emotional child would suckle the teets of disenfranchisement and throw blocks at anyone who suggests a way to make the body politic more accountable when it doesn’t turn sour grapes into honey.

You obviously need time to grieve and/or I obviously need to stop responding to your cuddle session. Both, some or neither are valid.

[PhoneLobster]

Look the Democrats have been (firmly) losing "the long game" for a long enough time now that one has to ask, is their "plan" to be successful next century?

And also who the fuck still falls for "long game" excuses? It's been rather a number of decades now, that shouldn't pass the sniff test for an audience of fucking mayflies.

And who the fuck STILL fucking thinks the Democrats are secret geniuses just one cunning secret genius technicality judo flip away from even a small victory?

Didn't Obama's "4 dimensional chess" failures teach you one god damn thing?

[Harshax]

Mitch McConnell won the long game, with judiciary appointments. Ignoring that is to claim luck, circumstances or god, for fuck sake, filled appellate courts with conservative judges. You really are a dumbass. I’m going back to blocking all your posts.

[Thaluikhain]

Given Trump got a record turnout after 4 years of being Trump as POTUS (and many years of being Trump but not POTUS), I don't see pointing out hypocrisy amongst Republican politicians to be a winning strategy this time.

Give it a go if you think it's morally important to do so, but don't hold your breath.

[PhoneLobster]

Wait... does Harshax think he is the one proposing radical change in the strategy of the Democrats rather than just another weirder and stupider form of the same fail strats of worthless token maneuvers founded in there being "Decent Republicans" and Republican voters who care about hypocrisy?

I guess I should have noted the weirder comments about voting privileges and wanting Biden to do a "now 100% legal" violent coup for a third term (sure, limit yourself to one extra term, THAT makes that NOT crazy as a bag of squeaky hammers).

Here is radical change for the democrats. Take an actual populist position that matters, actual $2000 checks (or ideally a real fucking social safety net like the ones real countries have) in an economic crisis, or actual medicare for all in a medical crisis. Then whip your damn party to 100% obedience or else, then actually push it through, because if they had an ounce of the party discipline that even sucky third rate new labor type parties in other western countries have, then they DO have the numbers. THAT is radical change to get all upity and morally outraged about people rejecting.

Being morally outraged that people don't accept your genius plan to symbolically humiliate Republicans for not agreeing to symbolically censure Trump in a bullshit constitutional amendment nobody asked for... in the middle of an economic and health crisis no one is doing anything useful about?

Wow.