Election 2020

[PhoneLobster]

Odd that they "suck less than they could have. Conversation over."

It feels like a certain specific outcome that would have been way better is being explicitly and petulantly cut out of any and all consideration by an arbitrary declaration that it's not even allowed to be in the conversation.

[DSMatticus]

PhoneLobster, listen to me. Just listen. Please.

Please do not be a dick right now.

I am emotionally exhausted.

I am not snidely delegitimizing the progressive movement.

You know this. Everyone knows this. I have not been subtle with my politics here. And I know you know this, because I do not think you are stupid.

But I do think you are capable of being a dick.

Please do not be a dick right now.

You are, of course, welcome to have any conversation you want, and I did not mean to imply otherwise. I am not the police. That was a bit of dramatic flair about how I would not be joining it because, again, I am already emotionally exhausted and that conversation hurts.

Do you understand? Are we good? We can be good here, honestly and genuinely. I would appreciate that very much, in fact.

[PhoneLobster]

But isn't it absolutely I don't know really kinda important to point out that that this is a bad outcome. A very bad outcome. Not a "yay, small heavily compromised success" but an "oops far bigger disaster than even the dark and questionable compromise we were lazily aiming at".

And you could have at least tried for a good outcome but the DNC and Obama chose for you not to. Then massively failed to even achieve their worse goals. And that needs mentioning. Every, fucking, time.

The hammering home that needs is relentless. You want a holiday from it ok. But why "Conversation over" without acknowledging it unless you are trying to dismiss it?

[Thaluikhain]

But isn't it absolutely I don't know really kinda important to point out that that this is a bad outcome.

Well...yes...but is there anyone here that disagrees?

[PhoneLobster]

Well...yes...but is there anyone here that disagrees?

With things other than that excessively shortened portion, possibly. With say, the last sentence of that very same paragraph, I somewhat suspect at least some.

With the second paragraph, oh boy I suspect rather a lot. I'm not sure who, but give it five minutes, I'm sure there will be someone out there.

And yeah, those that do find say, that second paragraph especially, relentless emotional browbeating are probably very much the same subset of people that are the ones who should hear it every single day for the rest of their lives.

Every chance you can get it, every time you can say it, to people who agree or disagree or whatever. If the topic comes up. Point out that the neoliberal fuck ups promised they knew what they were doing this time for sure then screwed the pooch. Yet again. Extra hard. Like the worthless lying idiots they are. This sort of relentless repetition is how political realities sink in to long term public consciousness, and the media won't be doing it for you.

[Josh_Kablack]

PhoneLobster:


The "good" outcome hasn't been on the table since (at least) Super Tuesday. To avoid stall an irreversible slide further into neofascism, those of us stuck in the US of A have had to sell the still-crappy neoliberal outcome we didn't really believe in pretty hard to our friends and family for the past several months.

Our reality is a quarter million Covid deaths with 25,000+ yet to come for each of the next several months, kids in cages, record unemployment, well armed domestic terrorists driving across state lines to shoot minorities and intimidate governments. We spent the summer exactly one trigger happy rookie agent away from sliding into the violence of "the Troubles" Ireland if not the rubble of the Syrian civil war. At this point, avoiding the options of "moar fascism now", "civil war III" or collapsing into a truly failed state gets to count as a "win".

And if you disagree on moral principles rather than just Denizen smugness, then you as a non-American have a moral responsibility to start help getting vulnerable Americans out of this country before the camps expand.

[PhoneLobster]

If you think Australia is the place for political refugees to flee to you haven't been keeping track of who was pioneering the whole kids in cages thing.

But I want to briefly focus on this "non-American" thing.

One thing I see from the Den, and from online US citizens in general, is a complete inability to comprehend, well, anything, from the perspective of, well, a non-American.

The sooner the USA's ongoing collapse can render it a non-entity internationally the better for us. The less competent the criminal in charge of your endless coups against democracy and illegal invasions the better.

So you elected a guy who is a monstrous warmonger, revived the neocon movement and all it's war mongers and stapled them to him, and you think from a "non-American" perspective this is anything but a disaster? Then he flubs the election so bad his domestic policy agenda will be, for him pleasantly, crippled with all the excuses he needs to throw anything other than "We will coup whoever we want to" under the too hard to even try bus and you think you are really in the same place you were when he was just the nominee?

Other countries won't see it as a moral responsibility to help you get out. Ask the people of Bolivia what they want to do with you guys? After Biden "coups better" like he promised? You guys are going to need an operation paper clip to find new homes.

[Prak]

As of the time I start typing, the votes are sitting at 50.6% Biden, 47.7% Trump, giving Biden 290 electoral votes.

As an anarcho-communist, it's not like this is my dream outcome. I have big problems with Biden, and the neoliberalism he represents. But... I'm really glad Trump lost. Obviously. Biden's no friend to leftists, but the life of a queer leftist under Biden is gonna be at least a little less shitty than that under Trump.

And honestly I'm kind of surprised? An incumbent hasn't lost re-election since I was literally one year old. For 96.96...% of my life, the presidency has been an eight year gig complicated by an ad break halfway through. So to see Trump lose re-election... I think I'm just too surprised to really analyze it more than "well, hot damn." Because I genuinely thought, simply due to the record over my lifetime, that Trump was going to win.

Now, if we elect another dem after Biden, I will be well and truly fucking floored.

[fbmf]

Now, if we elect another dem after Biden, I will be well and truly fucking floored.

QFT.

Game On,
fbmf

[...You Lost Me]

Now, if we elect another dem after Biden, I will be well and truly fucking floored.

Yeah I've got some hesitancy about where the future is going to go. But I'm with DSM in that I am pretty much emotionally spent, and I'm willing to think more about that in 1-2 years.

Without the senate (I doubt Dems win either of the GA runoffs), I can't imagine Biden will get to do much of anything. But I'm hoping we can strengthen the ACA and start up a nationwide program for contact tracing through EOs. Also like... no EOs discriminating against trans people for at least 4 years?

[Grek]

The sooner the USA's ongoing collapse can render it a non-entity internationally the better for us. The less competent the criminal in charge of your endless coups against democracy and illegal invasions the better.

This makes all of your prior political posting suddenly make sense to me. I still don't entirely agree, but this made why you believe all the things you do start to click.

[Prak]

As a trans person, personally I'm cool with being intelligible for military service...
(/s)

I hate to say it, but even if all Biden accomplishes is undoing the hate Trump legislated, I will accept that. I hope he does more, I hope he gets pushed left, but at this point, I will accept a slightly less shitty normal.

At least for a couple months.

[erik]

The sooner the USA's ongoing collapse can render it a non-entity internationally the better for us. The less competent the criminal in charge of your endless coups against democracy and illegal invasions the better.

Bold of you to assume our collapse wouldn't lead to us being a tremendously worse bad actor! I think we are in the process of narrowly avoiding becoming the next dictatorship super power. While status quo from 4 years ago isn't my goal, I look at the flipside, and even worse isn't better.

[Whatever]

The idea that the world would have been safer with America in the hands of an authoritarian despot because he's inept and maybe less interested in directing international coups right now is super fucked. It's accelerationist bullshit that isn't even true on its own terms.

Trump vetoed the Yemen bill because he likes selling weapons to the Saudis. He signed off on Bolivia. That he took other military cues from Putin and Erdogan and MBS instead of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is not actually a point in his favor.

If you want less American military intervention, you don't get that by supporting a Republican, or by supporting a power hungry wannabe dictator. An American collapse on the world stage wouldn't even reduce our foreign intervention--just look at Russia!

Is Biden a dumpster fire? Of course, he's already planning on putting Republicans in his Cabinet. It's awful. But even on the specific question of mongering wars (which is one of Biden's absolute worst points), he's better for the world than a second Trump term.

[Josh_Kablack]

If you think Australia is the place for political refugees to flee to you haven't been keeping track of who was pioneering the whole kids in cages thing.

Uh-huh.

But you know what, your Operation Paperclip analogy is spot-on. the 1930s and 1940s US of A was home to lynchings, Jim Crow, and internment camps -- that was still better for a lot of folks than 1930s and 1940s Germany was.

I'm aware that Australia is the birthplace of Murdoch propaganda, supports full police impunity, ships boat people off to ze camps, supports violence against aboriginals, has really deadly wildlife and now has "on fire" as one of their four seasons.

But your government has managed to keep the pandemic death toll per population to 36 per million population while we had 76 deaths per million population in October alone. Combined with the economic situation, our ever-increasing political radicalization, easy availability of military weapons, and even that self-important myth that we are the best country at everything you reference, this is going to result in distress leading to escalating violence. Both internal and external. And at this point, I don't actually think there is any way of stopping it, and the more productive questions are how individuals can get themselves to safer countries.


But hey, if you have a plan for getting our recent leadership to stand trial in the Hague, I'll happily lend a hand.

[Grek]

Is Biden a dumpster fire? Of course, he's already planning on putting Republicans in his Cabinet. It's awful. But even on the specific question of mongering wars (which is one of Biden's absolute worst points), he's better for the world than a second Trump term.

Putting Republicans in his Cabinet isn't a terrible idea, if he's talking about picking Senate Republicans likely to have their seats filled chosen by governors or special elections in states likely to provide a Democratic replacement and if he can use this to get a Senate majority in the aftermath of the Georgia runoffs and if those Senators would be willing to cross the aisle despite knowing that doing so might flip Biden from having a hostile Senate to having a chance to actually get things done outside of executive orders. Needless to say, I'm dubious at this prospect actually coming true. But I don't think it's inherently wrong at this point for Biden to float the idea that he is potentially open to appointing a Republican, in hopes of getting such a prospect to reach out to him.

[Whatever]

https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/stat ... 2720545792

Per @Politico
, frontrunners for Biden cabinet include:
...
Commerce: Meg Whitman

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meg_Whitman

[PhoneLobster]

The idea that the world would have been safer with America in the hands of an authoritarian despot because he's inept and maybe less interested in directing international coups right now is super fucked. It's accelerationist bullshit that isn't even true on its own terms.

Or. The idea that you were offered a better choice than Trump is nothing but wishful thinking and a refusal to face reality. You simply can't face the fact that you were offered no acceptable choice at all, and want to pretend there was a lesser evil on the ticket when there was not.

But your government has managed to keep the pandemic death toll per population to 36 per million population

Our state governments did that. Our Federal Government, run by a guy I would describe as arguably a lower quality more corrupt version of Trump, wanted to go full Trump/Boris no-action strategy. Their hand was forced by states refusing to co-operate.

We have fewer bigger states, an island continent and a spread out population. That's what saved us. The federal government took NO preparatory action despite excessive warning and turned every part of the response they touched into shit including deliberately unloading a sick cruise ship into our most populous city and funneling public funds to rich individual lunatics buying incomplete non-functional test kits. Oh and they keep relentlessly yelling at the states to end all lock downs and open all borders yesterday.

Don't get me going about the federal economic response. They were forced into that by the states and the opposition too, but decided to do that through businesses just to be jerks about it, and holy shit that was a train wreck that I, as a business (no literally I'm a business, I don't know if you guys do that over there, but I AM a business) had to experience first hand with any amount of paperwork, some of which didn't even exist until after they promised it would and was later changed retroactively to just to screw people.

[Kaelik]

https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/stat ... 2720545792

Per @Politico
, frontrunners for Biden cabinet include:
...
Commerce: Meg Whitman

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meg_Whitman

Don't forget Moniz, who served on BP's technology advisory council from 2005-2011, was basically funded by oil money his entire academic career (funded by Shell, and Exxon Mobil for at least 5 million each and BP got in later), Had to resign from a number of positions before becoming DOE including Founding Trustee of Saudia Aramco, fought for fracking, pipelines, and Coal Companies as Obama's Energy secretary and was responsible for the energy policies that lead to the US producing significantly more oil and gas than before Obama took office.

But it's okay I'm sure in the last 4 years he's turned over a new leaf and..... took a job being paid by one of the fossil fuel companies he advocated for as Obama's energy secretary in 2017........ then took a Board Position for a Coal Company he helped promote a new coal plant for while Obama's Energy Secretary in 2018...... Founded a nonprofit dealing with energy! That's good right? Oh, I see, the CEO of BP is the chair of the nonprofit board.....

Joe Biden: I will be the last president to win California, because I will burn it to the ground.

[Josh_Kablack]

Don't get me going about the federal economic response. They were forced into that by the states and the opposition too, but decided to do that through businesses just to be jerks about it, and holy shit that was a train wreck that I, as a business (no literally I'm a business, I don't know if you guys do that over there, but I AM a business) had to experience first hand with any amount of paperwork, some of which didn't even exist until after they promised it would and was later changed retroactively to just to screw people.

Yeah.

I'm just gonna keep nodding along with all of that and saying "yup, still sounds better than ours".

[Whatever]

The idea that the world would have been safer with America in the hands of an authoritarian despot because he's inept and maybe less interested in directing international coups right now is super fucked. It's accelerationist bullshit that isn't even true on its own terms.

Or. The idea that you were offered a better choice than Trump is nothing but wishful thinking and a refusal to face reality. You simply can't face the fact that you were offered no acceptable choice at all, and want to pretend there was a lesser evil on the ticket when there was not.

https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312

the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad things. you imbecile. you fucking moron"

[PhoneLobster]

I'm just gonna keep nodding along with all of that and saying "yup, still sounds better than ours".

And the reason it's better is important.

You had a dysfunctional federal response (or lack of it).

We had basically the exact same dysfunctional federal response (or lack of it). At least at first.

Part of it is luck a natural ocean border and population distribution. Even the massive bushfires in summer actually helped because right when the virus was getting off the ground we had massively reduced international travel because why visit a country that's that much on fire?

Aside from that our state governments, specifically the ones led by the party which is at the federal level the opposition party, and pressure from the federal opposition party, forced a better response, mostly by just doing it themselves, and by a small margin with the economic response by forcing the federal government to respond at least a little bit.

Now, what stopped that happening for you?

The Democrats. Sure, there are probably some issues to do with the structure and relationships of state governments in the US being a bit different. But in the end the Democrats, certainly the current leadership, are shit at being an effective opposition party that gets any actual policy goals achieved.

Well, relatively recent history indicates they are pretty shit at policy goals when they control all levels of government.

Anyway. Point is. Our labor party is crazy compromised and not in power at a federal level but still gets outcomes your Democrats probably wouldn't achieve with a super majority.

Our liberal party is meanwhile flat out openly mimicking your Republican party in all things including the Trump movement specifically. So you have to understand how VERY close we came to the exact same outcome you had, and how it COULD still break out of hand even now.

In fact I think I need to point out how much our federal government seems to be actively trying to let a break out get out of control. They constantly at all times in all contexts even during community infection break outs have demanded all lock downs and border closures end unconditionally. They had a rich flunky take Western Australia to court to try and end their border closure while other states still had ongoing community infections. And back during the beginning of it all, sure they stopped all flights from China, and Italy, and then Europe and so on (slightly late, but eventually), but even when the USA became by far and for weeks on end the biggest source of new infections coming into the country they not only NEVER stopped flights from the US (until they stopped ALL international travel) they PERSONALLY as federal cabinet members traveled to the USA, got infected, and brought it back.

Seriously, it's like the federal liberals want it to get out of control in Australia. To this day.

[angelfromanotherpin]

The US did not have a dysfunctional or absent federal response. It was the actual policy of the federal executive to actively make the outbreak worse, by sabotaging state logistics, by undermining the education of the public, by holding and encouraging superspreader events, etc. et multiple cetera. Specifically because the early outbreaks were in states that voted against Drumpf in 2016 and were likely to do so again, so fuck 'em.

I'm really curious what part of that you imagine to be the fault of the Democrats.

[PhoneLobster]

I'm really curious what part of that you imagine to be the fault of the Democrats.

I'm telling you we had the same issues with our ruling party.

And our opposition party used what power it had to force a better response.

I'm telling you, your opposition party. Is, broken, crappy, fake. It doesn't give a shit. It doesn't actually want a better response, certainly not if it has to get off it's lazy ass and try and exercise any of it's power ever.

And Biden was FINE with forcing super spreader events himself when it helped him seal the deal vs Sanders. He flat out held democratic voters to ransom demanding that Sanders concede early. So don't give me that shit. You don't have a president that wouldn't throw you into the dead from Covid pit in a second if it even slightly advantaged him to do so, he has already proven that.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I have exactly zero energy to consider the next four years. They suck, but they suck less than they could have. Conversation over.

You are being way too lenient and conflict-averse. This election result is exactly what I was talking about in the post that fbmf quoted.

Now, I'm an open accelerationist and this outcome is ideal for me. That is, Joe Biden holding the hot potato of COVID-19 without a working Senate majority. I personally prefer if he won both of the GA Senate runoffs so they couldn't run the 'b-b-but we couldn't pass a justice or seat a budget from the outset' excuse. But this works for me.

Even better, Joe Biden won this election by juicing turnout in a demographic that is going to slaughter him in 2022/2024 and alienating the only demographics that could save him from a downballot massacre. And all of the whining and moves from the Democratic Party and liberal media shows that they're just going to double down on the failed strategy of alienating activists and racial minorities while still offering handjobs to the fascists.

Delicious. See you in fall 2022. I just moved to a new city, I'm going to join a local socialist org in anticipating of eating the still-warm meat out of the guts of the Democratic Party.