So long, and thanks for all the fish

[Zinegata]

Again, this is for newbies and lurkers still holding out hope that the Den can be salvaged...

Don't be fooled. This is the Den's old boys club trying to nurse each other's fragile egos. Its really sad when three grown men feel the need to repeat and reinforce each other's points because of how impotent they really are. In other forums, such as reddit, such activity would be called "brigading" and is frowned upon because it allows a few posters to seem more numerous/popular than they really are.

Anyway, a bit of background: When I left the Den I discovered that my particular brand of posting was in fact fully capable of creating a following. In some respects it was larger and wider than Frank's cult of personality ever was. Indeed, until I largely quit social media complete strangers were PMing me and asking me to keep on posting. Funnily, most of these guys were people asking me to post in favor of left-wing progressive narratives.

And yes, I do have a very self-confident tone that rubs some people the wrong way.

Here's the thing though: I have single posts in some gaming forums where I have more net upvotes than the Den gets posts in an entire month.

Hell, I have a throwaway one-paragraph anime review that had more upvotes than the Den gets post in a single month. And that particular review was running contrary to most viewer sentiments (I loved the ending whereas most people hated it; and I changed so many minds that a Youtube video literally plagiarized my review word for word).

And that's because what people consistently like about my posts is their clarity. I can explain in very simple terms what is actually happening in what seems to be a complicated situation. That's why I was able to explain a complicated ending in simple terms and change people's minds about it. This more than makes up for the self-confident tone which, I might note, doesn't actually off-put at many people as the posts here imply. It turns out most people don't have crippling insecurity and can handle the truth.

So this whole idea that I have no worth, no value, and no communication skills, and I'm just an asshole? This is again just fanfiction by jealous old men. I know where I've been and what I've done. And I haven't even touched on successes in my personal or professional life - forum-posting for me is just a hobby.

====

So let me exercise my skills and get to the real heart of the issue.

The old boys club isn't mad because I'm insulting them.

They're mad because I am cutting through all of their propaganda, manipulation, and bullshit. And describing to people what The Den really is.

Because contrary to the fanfiction they created, the Den is NOT special in a good way. It is not that the Den is right and the rest of the Internet is wrong.

The Den is instead a closed-off community of sad old men jerking off to each other.

I know this because I've been to other forums and have seen how they view the Den. And the vast majority of people have no clue what it is, and the small minority which does tends to have a negative opinion of it.

More importantly, the only members of the Den to get any kind of recognition outside here is Frank and K. Indeed, it was in other forums that I learned that K did the lion's share of the work in the Tome series.

By contrast, all of the guys attacking me now?

No one knows them outside of the Den.

Why would that be the case if, as the old boys club is now insisting, they've totally changed and are now welcoming to new members?

Hell, a couple of the people here were in fact very active in driving out Frank - one of the site's oldest members - and yet now they expect us to believe that they are welcoming?

Indeed, given how much these folks are bad-mouthing Frank and blaming him for all the site's ills - when the site blew up again even without Frank leading to the ban of all political discussions - why should anyone believe them?

It's just sad old people playing forum politics - trying to steal credit from others, and then scapegoating others rather than accept blame. Its consistently the behavior of insecure man-children.

===

And the most ironic and hilarious thing about all this?

The primary demographic that uses the same language and debating tactics as these losers are literally die-hard MAGA supporters. The very demographic they claim to be fighting.

Which, I might note, is the demographic I tend to argue the most with these days. Because what they absolutely hate more than anything is a speaker who can explain why they are wrong in simple terms. Because while the die-hard MAGAs will never change their minds, stomp their feet, and try to demonize the speaker, most of the people in the sidelines end up realizing their error and stop wasting their time supporting a shitty cause.

My posts here are no different from my anti-MAGA posts. It's not meant to save shitty die-hards. It's instead meant to tell bystanders what the MAGA cult are really offering and how it's a complete waste of time.

The only difference between the Den's old boys club and the MAGA cult? The Den's cult has already consumed its own original leadership.

That's why none of this "ableist" discussion is genuine. Its just a new imaginary battle line they're drawing so they have an excuse to exclude whomever new enemy they invent to justify the existence of their cult. Just as how Trump pretty much lies all the time and shifts the blame to new targets without rhyme or reason, the Den's anti-ableist rhetoric is just a bunch of bad actors using identity politics tactics to manipulate people into supporting their cause.

And yet that's not even the saddest thing about this entire situation.

Let's be generous: Let's say the old boys club try to restrain their asshole tendencies with their virtue-signalling exercise of the week. They actually genuinely try to be nice for once.

What then do they actually have to offer new members?

The answer, quite simply, is nothing.

They don't even have the limited design and posting talent of Frank. That's why no one knows any of them outside of The Den.

Worse, rather than admit to these problems, witness this entire thread for yet another dose of sad old men self-rationalizing their own imagined virtues.

That is really at the heart of why garbage people remain garbage people. They are not honest to themselves. That's why they keep trying to "win" pointless arguments. That's why they keep framing discussions to belittle other people's accomplishments, but shy away from discussing their own. That is why I have no doubt they'll completely avoid any honest engagement with this post. They'll try to evade, they'll try to distract. They'll do anything to avoid having to be honest with themselves.

Don't waste your time on people like these. You won't gain anything.

Or don't. Its your time to waste.

[Grek]

Somebody sure has strong opinions on not posting here for a guy who still posts here. Not even just in this thread, but in the actual game design bits of the forum. You're either too cool to post here, or you're not. Either stop shitting, or get back in the pot.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Look at him, bragging about his upvotes like anybody gives a fuck. No wonder he hates this place, his ego doesn't get stroked enough.

[Koumei]

When I left the Den

Stop using the past tense to describe something that has yet to happen. Or better yet, make that an actual true thing that happened, and leave. You're super welcome to do so.

[Omegonthesane]

When I left the Den

Stop using the past tense to describe something that has yet to happen.

Nitpicking a weak argument for a position I generally agree with:
From the things that this asshat wrote, it's clear that he is referring to what happens when you go to forums other than The Gaming Den to talk about RPGs and witness discussion of RPGs, rather than necessarily to when he turned aside in what he intended to be a permanent way.

But yes, it's hilarious and sad to see he's still here when he claimed he was leaving forever. Frank at least largely stuck to getting gone and staying gone after making a song and dance about it. (In that he was gone for 3 months before making one more "look at me" post which contained no hint that he intended to continue sticking around after that one lapse. Zine? Couldn't stay away for a week.

(Also, a quick Reddit search showed a bunch of people commenting on Zinegata by name, but also that he's gone and wiped his Reddit account. So not the slam dunk I was expecting, but does make it a lot harder to verify any of the shit he was talking about how much upvotes he definitely got.)

[Zinegata]

Stop using the past tense to describe something that has yet to happen. Or better yet, make that an actual true thing that happened, and leave. You're super welcome to do so.

Except I did. I barely posted for a long, long time.

And that's when I discovered it wasn't the rest of the Internet was full of shit. If anything, there are way more kind and genuinely productive people out there. During that time, I barely remembered this place even existed; and literally almost all of the RPG forums had also forgotten this place too.

This is just the same old garbage people in denial of the much simpler reality that this isn't a forum that makes people better.

Its just the same old garbage people enabling each other's fanfiction.

By the way - with you specifically, it's a bloody shame you never had the courage to venture out and show your work off to other forums. But that's what happens when you close yourselves off in your little cliques.

[Zinegata]

Look at him, bragging about his upvotes like anybody gives a fuck. No wonder he hates this place, his ego doesn't get stroked enough.

Ah yes, so that's why I largely gave up on social media recently. I am totally addicted to upvotes to the point that I deleted those accounts.

And then I decided to crawl back to this Den where I know I will be treated like a new king.

Again, make up whatever fanfiction you want.

The reason you're mad is because the real truth bites.

By the way:

(Also, a quick Reddit search showed a bunch of people commenting on Zinegata by name, but also that he's gone and wiped his Reddit account. So not the slam dunk I was expecting, but does make it a lot harder to verify any of the shit he was talking about how much upvotes he definitely got.)

Yeah, a bunch of literal Neo-Nazis were so triggered by my posts a couple of them started stalking me.

But sure, make up your own fanfiction about how it's the world that's bad. Not you despite the fact that you're basically siding with the Neo-Nazis who stalked me.

Doesn't surprise me one bit though. You're cut out of the exact same cloth.

[Zinegata]

Somebody sure has strong opinions on not posting here for a guy who still posts here. Not even just in this thread, but in the actual game design bits of the forum. You're either too cool to post here, or you're not. Either stop shitting, or get back in the pot.

As I said, it was a peeve of mine, and the person asking isn't a garbage person.

Just because the forum is full of garbage people who are easily triggered and show up in this thread so they can be identified for all to know doesn't mean everyone here is an asshole.

Indeed, if anything, the point is that the vast majority of people who have been driven out of here were the good people to begin with. It's the shitlords that still cling here.

More importantly, I don't deny a person genuinely asking for help just because there are garbage people in the world. That's not me. I don't let cynics and naysayers define what I will do.

But sure, keep on trying.

[Omegonthesane]

Ah yes, the person spewing invective days after he spelled out why he was permanently gone is on very stable ground to accuse others of being "garbage people who are easily triggered".

(Which by the way is also a shitty turn of phrase for him to be using because it's belittling a fucking medical term for things that initiate a trauma flashback.)

I kind of don't need to hear another god damn word from someone who thinks pointing and laughing at his absurd behaviour is exactly the same as siding with neo-Nazis.

[Zinegata]

Ah yes, the person spewing invective days after he spelled out why he was permanently gone is on very stable ground to accuse others of being "garbage people who are easily triggered".

Says the guy who is part of a 7 person lynch mob and counting. Even though I literally named none of these people to begin with.

You're literally just too self-absorbed to realize how ridiculous you all look.

One guy can easily rile up seven?

That doesn't make the one person an asshole.

That means the one guy hit a nerve; and the fact that you're basically resorting to childish name-calling to try and "beat" me is what confirms that it's true and you're just garbage people who can't handle the truth.

I kind of don't need to hear another god damn word from someone who thinks pointing and laughing at his absurd behaviour is exactly the same as siding with neo-Nazis.

Dude, I know the reddit posters who talked shit about me. They're a bunch of guys who have a fetish for the German Army of World War 2 and are mad at me because I have the temerity to point out that the Germans actually lost the war, fought for a shitty cause, and committed a ton of war crimes.

Funnily, on the last bit they basically deny the Holocaust and confirm that they really are just modern Neo-Nazis.

You're making them out to be good guys because I'm your witch hunt victim of the week.

So, again, stop pretending. You're cut out of the same cloth. Just as they deny the Holocaust for their Neo-Nazi agenda, you're too busy making up fanfiction about me to hide the simpler reality that you're a bunch of fragile, very easily triggered garbage people.

[Thaluikhain]

You need to calm down

(Ok, so some of it is about LGBT persecution, and some of it is about hating on celebs, but I think some of it is about online rantings and would seem to apply. Still think 1989 was her best album, though.)

[Zinegata]

You need to calm down

(Ok, so some of it is about LGBT persecution, and some of it is about hating on celebs, but I think some of it is about online rantings and would seem to apply. Still think 1989 was her best album, though.)

Great song pick! Thanks for making me aware of it.

[Red_Rob]

Again, this is for newbies and lurkers still holding out hope that the Den can be salvaged...

...

Anyway, a bit of background: When I left the Den I discovered that my particular brand of posting was in fact fully capable of creating a following. In some respects it was larger and wider than Frank's cult of personality ever was. Indeed, until I largely quit social media complete strangers were PMing me and asking me to keep on posting.

...

Hell, I have a throwaway one-paragraph anime review that had more upvotes than the Den gets post in a single month.

...

I changed so many minds that a Youtube video literally plagiarized my review word for word).

And that's because what people consistently like about my posts is their clarity.
...

So this whole idea that I have no worth, no value, and no communication skills, and I'm just an asshole? This is again just fanfiction by jealous old men. I know where I've been and what I've done. And I haven't even touched on successes in my personal or professional life - forum-posting for me is just a hobby.

====

So let me exercise my skills and get to the real heart of the issue.

The old boys club isn't mad because I'm insulting them.

They're mad because I am cutting through all of their propaganda, manipulation, and bullshit. And describing to people what The Den really is.


...

More importantly, the only members of the Den to get any kind of recognition outside here is Frank and K. Indeed, it was in other forums that I learned that K did the lion's share of the work in the Tome series.

By contrast, all of the guys attacking me now?

No one knows them outside of the Den.
...

And the most ironic and hilarious thing about all this?

The primary demographic that uses the same language and debating tactics as these losers are literally die-hard MAGA supporters. The very demographic they claim to be fighting.

...

That is really at the heart of why garbage people remain garbage people. They are not honest to themselves. That's why they keep trying to "win" pointless arguments.

Zine, just stop. How anyone could re-read that cringingly embarrassing screed at the top of the page and not immediately hit the delete button and pray that no-one had read it is beyond me. Seething about how everyone at the Den was a big meany that didn't recognise your true greatness is bad enough, but bragging about how many 'Likes' you got for an anime review is actually pathetic. At least your motive for coming back is now painfully obvious. You slunk away years ago because you didn't get the reception you thought you deserved, and now you've got some traction elsewhere you want to come back and get revenge by telling everyone here exactly what you think of them.

By the way, I got really strong "I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals" vibes from all your bragging about how persuasive and insightful you are, and not just on the internet, in real life too! And for the record, people here know that obscure RPG design talk tends to get less attention than anime reviews, and I don't think I could name anyone that posts about RPG design on forums I don't visit either. These aren't the great gotchas you think they are.

Well, you've said your piece. Everyone here is a MAGA supporter, a Neo-Nazi and a garbage person because they once told you that you were full of shit. We get it. So now you can go back to posting your anime reviews or whatever on Reddit where people appreciate your great insights.

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

[...You Lost Me]

As fun as it is to dunk on one denner as a group, can we skip that part for Zine? The only reason Zine keeps coming back is (a) to bait someone by saying something dumb, or (b) to say even more dumb things because someone took the bait. That anime review post is obvious bait. Just like the "I think this will be my last post here" post. Just like when they were bodyshaming Prak (was it in 2010?). Time after time, Denners fall for the bait and then Zine gets to nuke a thread with their triple post threadshitting. As a direct result, everyone else loses whatever value that thread would have provided.

I doubt Zine will ever leave TGD. At minimum you're going to see them twice a year when they post a mediocre self-righteous hot take and fuck back off to reddit or wherever they can get hundreds of upvotes about anime. But you have the power to make that only twice a year, because you can just keep Zine on ignore and not reply to them. Hell, the only reason they have started posting in IMHO is because people egged them on in this thread and they eventually got curious enough to wander over. The very act of calling out Zine on their shit makes them stick around, thus wasting more and more of your time.

Every reply you make to Zine increases the chances that they will go infect an interesting IMHO thread with needless threadshitting. This is also the same kind of hostility-for-hostilities-sake behavior that got current events removed from MPSIMS, and I don't think fbmf is a big fan of playing this kind of game repeatedly. If you all want them gone, please just put them on ignore.

[saithorthepyro]

Eh, then he might go infect it anyway if we don't give them the attention he thinks he deserves. He's clearly got too much time on his hands to do anything else.

Also, for someone whose making a big fuss over TAA using ableist language (which to be clear, I am completely against and made clear in that thread), Zine needs to learn to practice what he preaches

Ah yes because I wasn't the first person to point out that Frank was the Den's original Alpha Male by Ranting.

This was totally not Kaelik and his retarded Discord Daycare again trying to pretend someone is "silva" or some other long-gone enemy again, and then stealing their ideas afterwards.

Kaelik's on borrowed time. The only reason he stays is because he is literally too retarded to be able to exist anywhere else. He'll throw you under the bus too when the island gets really small.

[Kaelik]

Eh, then he might go infect it anyway if we don't give them the attention he thinks he deserves. He's clearly got too much time on his hands to do anything else.

Also, for someone whose making a big fuss over TAA using ableist language (which to be clear, I am completely against and made clear in that thread), Zine needs to learn to practice what he preaches

Ah yes because I wasn't the first person to point out that Frank was the Den's original Alpha Male by Ranting.

This was totally not Kaelik and his retarded Discord Daycare again trying to pretend someone is "silva" or some other long-gone enemy again, and then stealing their ideas afterwards.

Kaelik's on borrowed time. The only reason he stays is because he is literally too retarded to be able to exist anywhere else. He'll throw you under the bus too when the island gets really small.

They have never pretended to be against ableism. They are just trying to do a hypocrisy takedown where because I do not think people should use that word and do not use that word myself that I am a hypocrite for not criticizing AA for not using it in this thread but not acknowledging his fault in using it in a different thread where I criticized him.

It is an incredibly convoluted and nonsensical hypocrisy takedown, but that is the intend, not an actual criticism of ableism which they support.

[saithorthepyro]

Okay then. I stand...confusedly corrected then. So his entire argument is because you did not criticize TAA in this specific thread you are a hypocrite. Who also thinks you secretly control this site in the same way many people from outside TGD though Frank secretly controlled this site.

Can we all take a step back, Zine's entire thesis is that TGD is secretly being controlled and manipulated so that everyone practically worships Kaelik? Like, no offense intended Kaelik, I appreciate your posts even if I disagree most of the time, but if the impression someone has gotten is that not even all just the majority of active posters are Kaelik fanpeople...lurk more.

[Kaelik]

Can we all take a step back, Zine's entire thesis is that TGD is secretly being controlled and manipulated so that everyone practically worships Kaelik? Like, no offense intended Kaelik, I appreciate your posts even if I disagree most of the time, but if the impression someone has gotten is that not even all just the majority of active posters are Kaelik fanpeople...lurk more.

I don't know exactly what he's alleging or that he's alleging any specific thing, but yes, the alternative universe where people on the Den like me is a weird place.

[OgreBattle]

what game mechanics best emulate the social combat stuff going on right now

[Kaelik]

what game mechanics best emulate the social combat stuff going on right now

Unfortunately all social combat mechanics always suck, so all of them.

[Omegonthesane]

Exalted 2e where the only winning option is to prevent the conversation from taking place. But maybe that's all social combat mechanics.

[saithorthepyro]

I am quite convinced that making a satisfactory set of functional social combat rules is never going to happen. Not with how the industry is currently structured, much like combat, you'd have to set up a whole minigame for characters specifically invested into it, and one that all members of the party can invest into. Sticking to something like DnD's skill checks reduces the amount of aspects you can play around with to the point where it's easy to stack it to ridiculous levels because the only thing the devs think they can do for things that give you bonuses in social situations is ever increasing +X modifiers to your skill rolls.

[Zinegata]

So, to review:

1) Nobody has been able to articulate what value they actually bring to newbies. Instead they all attack the guy who says you have no value to bring.

This is funny because I wrote that post primarily not because of Kaelik.

Instead I wrote that bit primarily because one poster here decided that withholding his friendship to me represented some kind of punishment. That it was some great honor to be his friend and I'm losing out.

Kaelik wasn't the one who wrote that angle.

Here's the sad reality everyone is missing though:

I don't want to be friends with any of you. I have seen how a lot of you have behaved over the past sixteen years and most of you are objectively shitty and embarrassing people to be with.

The few people who were worthy of friendship in this forum I reached out to on a personal level. None of them are posting in this thread; and indeed I suspect most of them are never coming back. (No. Frank's not one of them either. It would also be embarrassing to be "friends' with him)

You are not inherently worthy of friendship. You are not entitled to friendship. You have to earn it by providing value to others.

2) Everyone knows Kaelik was a big part of the fracas that caused Frank to leave, and for the politics getting shut down.

This is what actually happened. Thing is, people are already trying to deny what actually happened and pretend this is really some anti-ableist friendly forum.

Trying to exaggerate and pretend I'm pushing this idea that Kaelik "controls" the Den is just his stans playing their sad little social manipulation games. Fbmf is the person who ultimately owns the Den; and indeed it's notable how pretty much all the non-garbage people are NOT wasting time on this thread.

Worse, your actions are pretty fucking transparent for anyone who is not trapped in your little Discord Daycares. That's the problem when you restrict yourself to a tiny social group creating fanfiction about yourselves. You keep thinking you create ironclad arguments when in reality all the people outside can see you're full of shit.

Here's a hint for why you are a bunch of very obvious little hypocrites:

You all claim to not trying to "control" the forum.

And yet you're all gathering together and trying to bully one person to leave.

The Den's always been like this. Because it is again full of garbage people who have no control over their own lives, so they keep trying to control other people. When their bullying ends up having terrible consequences, everyone evades responsibility and looks for a new person to sacrifice to the lynch mob.

3) I'm not even proud of any of the achievements I listed.

The fact that I can make a throwaway anime review that gets more upvotes than the Den gets posts isn't something I'm proud of. Its literally a throwaway review for a reason. You Lost Me is literally the only one who was even self-aware enough to pick up on that; even though I explicitly said it was a throwaway review.

Moreover, the fact that I was able to create a following larger than Frank Trollman's little cult isn't something I'm proud of. If anything, you learn that followers are to be pitied; because they tend to follow someone due to something lacking in their own lives. There are lots of psychos on the Internet nowadays who try and create followings just to boost their ego; but I'm not one of them. That's indeed a major reason why I quit social media. Dealing with haters is easy; it's dealing with fans who you know will self-destruct is the real challenge - especially when you don't have the time to help all of them.

Indeed, I'd be an extremely sad and unsuccessful person if that was the extent of my life's achievements. Actual important things to be proud of are things like "making real life-long friends", or being "married to a kind and understanding person, who I serve every day".

The thing is, the garbage people in this thread cannot stand success.

Which is the real reason all of the fuckers here are having a little meltdown.

A person you hated, bullied, and tried to throw out came back; and it turned out he had a pretty good life. He was even more successful than the one thing this forum was supposed to be good at!

If you weren't all hopeless garbage people, you'd self-reflect. You'd ask yourself what little things you've done that you are proud of. You'd appreciate your own wins.

Instead you are all hopeless garbage people because all you can ever do is to be mad at other people's happiness and achievements.

That's why you are NEVER going to get any influx of newbies who will stick. Because as soon as any of them achieve any modicum of success or happiness, you will dogpile on them. You will claim they are "rubbing their success on you". You will try to downplay their achievements. If it's not your own success, then it must be somehow fake, stupid, unearned, and not worthy of celebrating.

And that's exactly what my posts were meant to illustrate, and I thank each and every garbage poster here for raising their hands and showing to the world what kind of abuse they will get if they become your "friends".

4) Which brings me to my last point.

Frank's a garbage person. He attacked and bullied me all the time too.

He was never my friend. It would be embarrassing to call him a friend.

More importantly, I left primarily because I figured out ahead of everyone else here that he was just bluster. He wasn't as good a designer or speaker as he made himself out to be.

But we did have some decent interactions when we play Dominions together from many years back.

At least to me, he showed some self-awareness that he was in fact a garbage person and was genuinely trying to do better.

And, most importantly, I'd known him for about a decade. That counts for something.

That's why I backed him up when his so-called friends and followers dogpiled on him.

By contrast many of the folks here were far closer to Frank in the past. And yet you're all too busy saying "good riddance".

That's why I don't plan on being there for any of you when it's your turn on the chopping block. You're not just appalling garbage people who can't stand the happiness of others. You're literally appalling garbage people who will readily betray their friends.

Again, fucking seriously, you people think that being friends with any of you is some kind of prize? Not having to deal with you IS the prize.


===

Oh, and regarding social combat:

what game mechanics best emulate the social combat stuff going on right now

No social combat mechanics work because social interactions don't have clear win / lose states like game-based combat. Most game-based combats are simply battles or skirmishes where one side wins while the others loses.

By contrast you don't "defeat" others in social interaction. Just because you think you bullied a poor store clerk into giving you a discount is not a "victory". Such actions have a social cost - the clerk is gonna harbor resentment that can bite you in the back later.

Social interaction is fundamentally about give and take. You flatter a store clerk, giving them happiness, so they give you a discount. You bully a store clerk, get a discount, but they hold a grudge. It is not simply a die roll vs Charisma check.

More importantly, some people have widely different supply of various "resources". Some people are just outgoing and can freely give out flattery at no cost to themselves; while others find it nearly impossible to give a compliment. Likewise, how people accept social situations also differ. Some people have empathy and try to understand what the other person is really saying. Most folks here are cynics who try to add an imaginary ulterior motive even when there's none.

More importantly, very often people have their own goals. In a social combat, everyone can win, or everyone can lose. Everyone can think they are winning, when in reality only one person is actually winning or no one is winning.

For instance, here, my objective isn't to change any of the die-hard Denner's minds. I fundamentally believe that it is a futile exercise, and have stated it point-blank numerous times. My objective instead is to have these old-timers demonstrate how they really act towards other people.

By contrast I'm sure some of the die-hards here are only posting to get "cred" points from their peers. "Hey, look at how I totally owned Zinegata with my argument".

In their minds, they're winning. Which is valid from their view; but from my perspective I don't care if they think they're winning. My goals are different from theirs.

The thing is, a lot of the die-hard Denners here are pretty much oblivious to this nuance. Not only do they believe they can create a social combat system; they think they can succeed at life by treating social situations as combat.

[Thaluikhain]

I liked the end battle for the Black Closet video game. The game mechanics in general were very much like a RPG (they even have an animated D20).

There are 4 characteristic (Niceness, Scariness, Sneakiness and Lookingness, and no I can't remember what they were really called). The boss picks one of their stats and you can either pick the same stats (from one of your multiple minions) and both lost 5 of it, or you pick the corresponding stat, each roll D20, add their stat to it, and the lesser one loses 10.

I think, not played that for a while. Not a great or in-depth system, but it works. Might be biased cause the game, although long, is made of win.

[MGuy]

Some games I've happened upon actually do have a social combat minigame with social hp and everything, and some create a larger framework for things like reputation/social standing where various actions, encounters, achievements, and encounters all change your social numbers/standing or whatever.

I've just yet to find a game that satisfies completely. I'm still searching though.