Designing a Pokemon TTRPG

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

If 4e has taught me one thing it is that having two to four moves available in a table top RPG is fucking bullshit. That's an impressive lot of available moves and an impressive lot of available Pokémon, but I would argue that ultimately all of that pales compared to letting people interact with their environment narratively. Every Machamp should be able to:

• Grab an enemy's weapon or held item.
• Trip an opponent.
• Pick up and throw an object.
• Push an opponent out of the way.
• Grab an opponent and hold them down.

And they should all be able to do all five of these things just because they are strong and have hands. And importantly, that is already more than four things without having any special moves like Cross Chop or Scary Face.

The video game move limits are comically unacceptable for a table top RPG.

-Username17

Uh, Frank, most of those are combat maneuvers that anyone, Trainer or Pokemon, can perform. And Machamp is good at those because it has a big buff Athletics score. I agree with you, I just don't think your example is working - though they do need more maneuvers.

I could see 4 slots for 'signature moves' that get some kind of bonus. Maybe you start with zero and work your way up to 4.

That's a sweet idea, since I really hate that the actual mechanics for doing that are locked away behind a single trainer class. Everyone should be able to have signature moves they can customize in various ways.

[Username17]

Uh, Frank, most of those are combat maneuvers that anyone, Trainer or Pokemon, can perform. And Machamp is good at those because it has a big buff Athletics score.

Sure. But the point is that the moment you've allowed Machamp to push and grab and throw because it has hands, you've completely jettisoned the videogame concept of Pokémon having exactly and exclusively four moves.

And once you've taken the step of dumping the concept of "moves" as it exists in the source material, you have to ask what the fuck else you're going to keep or convert. Because you've already taken what a "move" means and set it on fire.

-Username17

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Sure. But the point is that the moment you've allowed Machamp to push and grab and throw because it has hands, you've completely jettisoned the videogame concept of Pokémon having exactly and exclusively four moves.

And once you've taken the step of dumping the concept of "moves" as it exists in the source material, you have to ask what the fuck else you're going to keep or convert. Because you've already taken what a "move" means and set it on fire.

I'm totally down with all of that, but that doesn't really help me determine what's worth keeping or converting. I already wanted more moves, bigger move pools, and more interesting ones. I guess if I had to define it, I would say that a "move" is a special action that does something you can't do just by having thumbs or a capability or whatever. A Firestarter, for example, can make Fire-typed struggle attacks that suck dick but are still available as a backup option, but it's outclassed by Ember, which should be replaced by Flamethrower or Fire Blast or whatever. Preferably those also augment whatever noncombat utility you have so your higher-level monsters are stronger, tougher, and better at manipulating the world around them in ways that can be different from other members of the same species. Maybe your Charizard specializes in Physical moves that beef up its body skills and ability to perform or replicate combat maneuvers, while your friend's Charizard sticks to blasting people from the air with fireballs and shit, so it's better at flying and violating thermodynamics.

If that sounds stupid or like it doesn't go far enough, please let me know because I'm still trying to understand your point... the ones you make seem rather similar to how I already feel.

[Username17]

The thing about the move pool is that it includes both various flavors of basic attack actions and super abilities that in D&D would be classed as spells. Shit like Low Kick, Ember, and Thundershock are simply exactly a basic attack that in a TTRPG shouldn't even be a specific thing.

Creatures that can make fire should be able to make basic attacks with fire, and if you want to call that notation "Ember" for purposes of making Pokefans bark like trained seals because they noticed a reference, that's reasonable. But that shouldn't be a "move" and it definitely shouldn't be something you have to give up because you learned a cool new move.

On the flip side, stuff like Future Sight and Perish Song are weird as hell and totally deserve to be their own 'spells.'

-Username17

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Creatures that can make fire should be able to make basic attacks with fire, and if you want to call that notation "Ember" for purposes of making Pokefans bark like trained seals because they noticed a reference, that's reasonable. But that shouldn't be a "move" and it definitely shouldn't be something you have to give up because you learned a cool new move.

Oh, okay, I see what you mean now. Good point. Just to spitball ideas, we already have the Firestarter/Fountain/etc. capabilities that allow you to make shitty attacks of a particular type... so why not expand on that? Maybe instead of "Firestarter grants you a shitty backup attack", the concept is "Firestarter grants you a level-appropriate attack"? Perhaps Firestarter in tier 1 is literally just Ember and sucks, but when you go up a tier, it automatically gets stronger or more accurate or whatever? If it has customization built into it, then you can have a level appropriate attack that's basically a fire laser, but you can tweak it to replicate other shitty, boring moves.

For example, at tier 1, you have Firestarter and you have 1 "move point" or what the fuck ever we're using for customization, and you can use that point on making your basic attack have a bigger blast radius or an added effect or whatever. As you go up in tiers, it automatically does more damage and has a longer/bigger range, and you get more points to customize it further.

It's some shit I just came up with right now, but I think having basic attack actions you can customize can replicate a lot of existing moves, allowing us to focus on putting actually interesting actions within each pokemon's move list.

[Koumei]

I think they're just getting random art now. At least it's still good.

I think that might be a nod at how the traditional starter pokemon essentially exist in a void and cannot be caught via natural means, and people sometimes react poorly to the concept of a wild Bulbasaur even existing in a normal forest - let alone a whole heap of them and a Venusaur.

I absolutely cannot stand that shit and refuse to allow fish Pokemon to arbitrary travel on land as well as most other things. It's a fucking fish, it has Overland 1, it fucking flops around on the ground because fucking duh.

I'd assume fish flop about pathetically. But seals and walruses (and lapras) do that awkward shuffle thing where their flippers slap against the ground loudly, maybe eels take a cue from snakes and slither, jellyfish sit there looking pissed off, octopuses can scuttle along... it helps that the majority of these things are based on actual animals so you can see how they move in various environments.

Where you really start cooking with gas is when you start fucking with mechanics - a Fire/Ghost Ninetails with Pressure that can Phase, or a completely albino Breloom that adapted to cave life and can Glow. You can and should fuck with absolutely anything you can. The most extreme example is the Giant Caterpie - it has +6 to all stats, +3 Power, +4 Overland, and +2 to Jumping, and has hardcore moves like Thrash, Body Slam, and Megahorn... but for whatever reason, it can't evolve.

The manga and anime had a whole bunch of weird one-off things that work like this too. There was a Glass Onyx in one case, a giant "super Haunter" in another, there are definitely options there for cool memorable things that aren't normal.

So let's say the inevitable happens: You're in a cave and you're swarmed by Zubats.

Repel has worn off.

[Username17]

As far as the moves go, recall that some of them describe abilities and some of them are attacks. So from the standpoint of an RPG, something like "Cross Chop" is a 4e D&D power where it just tells you how much damage it does and what rider effects it has when it connects. But something like "Telekinesis" is a genuine ability package that can be used to do a variety of stuff in and out of combat.

There just is not equivalency between Ember and Rain Dance. The two have very different amounts of effect upon the world.

-Username17

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

The manga and anime had a whole bunch of weird one-off things that work like this too. There was a Glass Onyx in one case, a giant "super Haunter" in another, there are definitely options there for cool memorable things that aren't normal.

Oh fuck, that's one thing I actually forgot to mention - there's an example of a Glass Onix in shiny pokemon section. It actually has the Glass-type instead of Rock, there's a whole shit-ton of homebrew support for Glass. It's a mildly interesting type.

As far as the moves go, recall that some of them describe abilities and some of them are attacks. So from the standpoint of an RPG, something like "Cross Chop" is a 4e D&D power where it just tells you how much damage it does and what rider effects it has when it connects. But something like "Telekinesis" is a genuine ability package that can be used to do a variety of stuff in and out of combat.

I thought about things a bit more and I think I like the idea of each Pokemon being able to just create moves that are basically just damaging attacks with rider effects, with those effects being shit that the moves already do. To make pokemon fans clap like trained seals, after the part that details how to make those moves are a bunch of "example moves", some of which are literally just Pokemon moves like Cross Chop and Ember, so you can grab some if you need them quickly. These moves would be separate from things that do cool stuff like Rain Dance, but picking up Rain Dance might allow you the ability to create Water moves if you couldn't before. Shit like that - the basic moves are customizable and generic, while the real moves give you cool powers that have applications in and out of battle.

[Username17]

Fundamentally the question is not what any particular Pokémon videogame maneuver does when used, it's what the different kinds of magic are capable of. That is, for a table top RPG the question of how Water Gun is different from Water Pulse is not important, but the question of what Water Magic does as a whole is extremely important. That a water Pokémon is going to be able to shoot water at people as some sort of level appropriate attack, but that's the most trivial design question of all. The real question is how deep into Avatar or D&D territory the hydromancy gets.

You have to decide if Hydromancy can create water or if it can just shape water. And if can make water from nothing, what does that cost? And how much water can it make? If you have some Pokémon that can create water from nothing and others that have to splash and spit water that happens to be around, you need to delineate that. Is Vaporeon fifth circle Water and Feebass just first circle Water?

Pokémon inherently has some pretty weird schools of magic, and some of them are explicitly better than others. But if you're making an RPG you need to decide what those schools of magic mean and do.

-Username17

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

I'll have you know that this has been extremely enlightening. How much example material do you think there should be? Things like pre-written stat blocks, setting stuff, adventures, all that jazz.

[Username17]

Consider the Grass Type. Many Grass moves are things like Vine Whip, Branch Poke, and Wood Hammer - the act of using some of your leafy bits as a weapon and hitting people with it. And in an RPG context, this is definitely not worth a major text entry. I mean "Trevenant counts as armed with a spear because of its sharp branches." is like as deep as you need to go on that. The fact that you can attempt to disarm someone or trip them up or poke something through the bars of a cage are just all emergent properties of being armed with a spear.

But consider all the other weird crap that Grass powers do. Controlling plants. Grabbing people with sudden entangling plant growth. Harnessing the power of the sun to heal or destroy. Calling purple vines from a ghostly forest to transform people into wicker scarecrows. Summon apples or other fruit that are either poison or magically healing. Possess inanimate objects by merging them with puppet vines. Putting roots into the ground to draw health from the earth. Putting roots into other people and Pokémon to vampirize their life blood. Produce useful items such as paper, yarn, food, medicine, or boats. And so on and so on. It covers much of the D&D Druid's spell list and conceptual space while also just passively letting you turn your body into wooden weapons.

In an RPG the question of how much food you can make by dumping nutrient rich seeds out of your head is much more important than whether a vine whip has a longer reach than a branch poke.

-Username17

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

I swear to god Frank, you only respond when I'm typing out an update.
What about something as conceptionally narrow as the Normal type? Is it okay that it's basically the "default" type and is the domain of both generic shit and shit that wouldn't fit under any other type? The biggest 'niche' for Normal powers are like... making a couple of illusions and sound-powers and shit. How do you compare something like that to all the cool shit you just described? Something like Stoutland is literally just a big fucking dog, yet even the humble and common Oddish has weird nature powers and shit.

[Username17]

The Normal Type is conceptually similar to 4th edition's Martial Power Source - a set of magic powers whose defining special effect is that they claim to not be magical at all. Now obviously that's way less useful than Grass or Water magic which have a demonstrable special effect where they do stuff in-world that affects the world.

Normal Type is also the holding place for ancient destructive magic that predates Pokémon typing. So Regigagas's Giga Impact and Arceus' Judgement are Normal Type, as is Hyper Beam.

But either way, Normal type is specifically not balanced. I mean, Dubwool's power to have very springy fur is not remotely in the same category as Ludicolo's ability to change the weather. And at the other end, Arceus' ability to create and destroy worlds is also not remotely on that level.

-Username17

[OgreBattle]

So your average Pokémon attack needs to be less dangerous than, say, a sharp knife

“What’s important is not disallowing children the use of knives, but teaching them to use knives well”
-Hayao Miyazaki on his ideal preschool & elementary school

[maglag]

They're pre-school kids. They haven't got to school and thus haven't been taught much of anything yet.

[OgreBattle]

They're pre-school kids. They haven't got to school and thus haven't been taught much of anything yet.

Yeah Miyazaki was talking about what should be taught.
Miyazaki let’s pre school kids he’s looking after play with hammers and nails as their parents animate. he also says fist fights are fine in elementary school as that’s what he grew up with

[maglag]

Yes, fist fights and playing with sharp things.

Even Miyazak didn't allow kids to fight each other with hammers and nails.

But pre-school kids are allowed to fight anybody with Pokémon until either side stops moving, so ergo Pokémon must be safer than sharp/hard blunt implements, about the same level of fists.

Like in the recent anime there was an old man who asks a trainer to demonstrate their Pokémon's ultimate Z-move.

While said old man is standing right in front of the Pokémon with no protection whatsoever.

So the old man would be taking the ultimate Z-move to the face. You don't ask people to demonstrate their ultimate knife/hammer/nail move to your exposed face. But you masy ask them "give me your best punch".

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Alternate idea: Humans are tougher than they are in real life, so preschool children can survive getting fireballed.

[Avoraciopoctules]

If knives are generally more dangerous than Pokemon, that means that serious bad guys will FIGHT with knives instead of Pokemon primarily. It also means that Pokemon might start using weapons instead of their innate powers.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

If weapons have the potential to be as dangerous as Pokemon, wouldn't some people fight with weapons and some people fight with Pokemon and some people fight with both? Shit, we're already at Cubones wielding Honedges. Some Pokemon can and do already use weapons.

[Koumei]

Wait why the fuck are we talking about pokemon being less dangerous than knives? Clearly they're dangerous, or at least some of them can. Now this especially goes for those which can cause global warming or make research facilities explode or "create miniature black holes" to protect (and also, incidentally, destroy) its trainer, but just "its face is a flamethrower" or "it's quite large and very strong, with sharp bits".

[Iduno]

Maglag brought it up, but I've been too nice to skip to calling it completely fucking retarded.

Don't worry, that'll pass.

Although you might get "too apathetic to bother calling it completely fucking retarded."

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

There's a valid point in wanting a Pokemon game where the humans have almost no influence in Pokemon battles and things are like the anime in that nobody ever really gets hurt. That's just the complete opposite of what I actually find fun about Pokemon tabletop.

[maglag]

If knives are generally more dangerous than Pokemon, that means that serious bad guys will FIGHT with knives instead of Pokemon primarily.

As somebody said, if you risk being caught doing something illegal, you would rather keep the illegal as down as possible.

So for example Team Rocket's in particular more of a mafia than exactly an army. And although the mafia sometimes does stab/shoot people, it's a lot more common they'll just "rough" them up with some fists/sticks. Because it's a lot easier to cover a non-lethal beating with the authorities than a stabbing/shooting.

The authorities won't stop somebody from challenging you to a Pokémon battle, but they would probably do something if they see somebody waving a knife/gun in public.

It also means that Pokemon might start using weapons instead of their innate powers.

Most mons lack opposite digits/trigger fingers (with many lacking limbs).

Wait why the fuck are we talking about pokemon being less dangerous than knives? Clearly they're dangerous, or at least some of them can. Now this especially goes for those which can cause global warming or make research facilities explode or "create miniature black holes" to protect (and also, incidentally, destroy) its trainer, but just "its face is a flamethrower" or "it's quite large and very strong, with sharp bits".

"Lv.100 Mega Gyarados used Hyperbeam!"
"lv 1 rattata fainted!"

Not dead. Fainted.

Your mon got badly burned/poisoned? Take your time to heal them, they'll only ever just fainted at worst. Pokémon poison is explicitly non-lethal. Pokémon fire is explicitly non-lethal too.

Heck, when you're fighting in the middle of a forest and use flamethrower, the surrounding vegetation doesn't even catch fire, does it?

There's mentions of Pokémon being sent to war true, but I believe that's more of "things got so desperate we started sending the children to the frontline because we've run out of everything else".

Only the legendary Pokémon seem to be legit dangerous but well, they are the legendary one-off Pokémon after all, something your average trainer won't ever see and probably doesn't even know they exist.

[Koumei]

Maglag brought it up, but I've been too nice to skip to calling it completely fucking retarded.

Well there's your first mistake.